I'm posting here because we got into a conversation about how Space Marines are employed. I didn't want to hijack the thread this occurred in so here we are.

My thoughts on the deployment of Space Marines is that they should never be sent where the guns of the enemy are pointed. If 10 SM can do the job so can 10,000 IG, and the latter are easier to obtain if more difficult to transport. Consider the following: a battle for a system involves Imperial and Tau forces. The Imperium is invading a Tau colony. Analysts have determined that the weakness of the Tau defenses are that they are reliant on energy from a solar-satellite megaplex in close-orbit of the primary star.

The Tau have split their fleet to cover the colony planet and the megaplex. Of course, the IG wants to invade promptly while the Tau fleet is divided. The IN wants to attack the megaplex for the same reason. The SM Captain in his Strike Cruiser advises patience. Test the enemy defenses by measuring their response times with a probing naval action. Wiser heads acquiesce to the SM Captain's experience and a low-intensity naval combat occurs wherein some long-range and ineffective fire is traded and the Imperial forces determine that the Tau aren't so divided as they thought. The Tau can concentrate their navy toward either objective in time to meet the Imperial forces. The IN Admiral thinks he can still batter his way through the entire Tau squadron but there will be significant losses. The SM Captain suggests waiting 24 days until the attack.

24 days later the IN moves on the colony planet. The Tau concentrate their squadrons and move to intercept. Meanwhile that ineffective long-range fire from the first engagement included some torpedo fire on the part of the IN. Those torpedoes, of course, ran out of fuel weeks ago and are tumbling through the void. They aren't armed torpedoes, of course. They are boarding torpedos. Both have a handful of SM and the disassambled parts of a short-range craft. The SM combine these parts from both torpedoes and assemble their craft (Stormraven?). They are ready about 26 days later.

It so happens that the Tau have a mobile moon (approx. Deimos-sized?) station in orbit around the planet closest to the primary star. It's a (dark side) research station that is determining the viability of mining operations on a planet heavy with liquid metals. The Earth Caste scientists just wouldn't leave and the Tau commander posted a detachment of Fire Warriors as an honor guard. Their first indication of SM presence is when their proximity alarms sound and a science officer informs the station chief that a vehicle is approaching and will dock with a cargo hatch in 22 seconds.

The SM make short work of the scientists and their bodyguards. The Techmarine (yes, the Captain sent a techmarine) spends some hours figuring out the station's propulsion controls and sets it on a collision course with the megaplex's beam component. The Tau navy is fighting the IN and can't intercept the moon in time. The IN takes heavy casualties and drives the Tau navy away, just as the IN Admiral predicted. When the IG sets its first dropships on the planet's surface they meet stiff resistance for a few hours and suddenly the Tau fire decreases in intensity. It seems their weapons are out of energy.

The SM Captain submits a protest to Segmentum Command for requisitioning a SM Strike Cruiser where a SM frigate could have done the job.

But hey, that's my 40K "verse.

Of course a Techmarine went along; he had to build a Stormraven, from people-sized parts. Astartes are cool, and I'm sure each one knows considerably more about (their) technology than the average Joe does, but it'll take a Techmarine, and his Servo-arm, to build a SM transport ship from parts no one noticed prior.

As I've flipped through 40K lore, and game stuff, over the years, I've wondered how to get the Angels of Death to serve others, too, but I usually come to a different question, first; why do I think it takes Marines? Having them is great; they are very capable, often purely professional, and one hell of a status symbol (both of my cheesy Rogue Traders have some stuff with Chapters; one wears a coat made out of the stuff Salamander heroes wear, because his grandfather was once a hero in their aide, and the other has the notation of Oath Bonded to the Angels of Death, in regards to the Raven Guard Space Marines, again, initially noted eons before, though he is certainly an honorable enough man to possibly receive their respect, and prepared to serve them when in need, as well), but we all know you shouldn't really get to just keep a group around, long-term, and what do you need them for, that your own hand-picked, best-of-the-best troops can't do, with a bit more time, and a lot less strings, if a lot more casualties? Hell, in my head, any situation you could justify pulling them in, often, will have changed drastically, by the time you get knowledge of it, ask for intercession, get an answer, and receive whatever aide they send, and then there are some fights the Angels of Death actually just aren't good at. You can also be the type of person whom they would never willingly aide; maybe you should see if you can call in favors from the Alpha Legion, or the Noise Marines.

As for the above, a very cool use of the Astartes, once they happened to be in the place, already.

Those are exactly the kind of tactics I would expect from a void-practiced SM chapter, like the Imperial Fists or Soul Drinkers. SM commanders are smart enough to understand that a fair fight should only happen when something goes wrong, and approach their battle plans accordingly. When I have involved SM forces in my games, they are limited to single, focused objectives, usually of the "blow up the power plant" or "board and disable the space station" variety and function as a plot mechanic more than an ally. SM motivations are very different from those that drive lesser warriors, and many, like the Dark Angles, will leave other Imperial forces high and dry to follow their own objectives if they please, so I think it is less a question of how SM are employed and more how they choose to employ themselves. IF they show up, there is no guarantee they won't hijack command of the warzone or even follow the Imperial commander's orders. Crimson Tears, the third Soul Drinkers novel has a pretty good rant from the Imperial general on the lack of control Imperial commanders have over SM forces. At one point, the Marines actually commandeered a regiment without the Lord Commander's knowledge and used them to back a SM armored column, with steep casualties (of course). To spite repeated requests for aid, the Marines were content to watch the IG slog through the city, essentially using them to filter out the lesser enemies. Even with huge warzones like the Siege of Vraks or the Armageddon wars, SM do not hold the line unless it is critical that the line be held at all cost and there is no other force capable of holding it. Even then, the SM commander will have some trick up his armored sleeve that will allow him to turn the tables on virtually any opponent.

I envision their deployment rules as being similar to Navy Seals or Rainbow Six, never using five men when four will do the job and never starting a fight they can't win the first round. When forced into a defensive position by supreme military brilliance on part of their adversary, the standard 3-1 ratio for attacking an entrenched position combines with the (conservative, imho) 10-1 effectiveness ratio for Marines to produce 30-1 necessary force ratio if you wanted to take something they don't want you to take, but the likelihood of forcing a pure SM defense as anything besides Xenos or Traitors is virtually nil. As a force with the mobility and endurance to remain on a constant attack footing, Marines will choose objectives that force the enemy off balance and hammer them until there is not a single shred of resistance remaining. Depending on the warzone, this may only take a lone surgical strike as with the above scenario or it may be years of waiting for the long siege to come to a critical point and showing up to kick the door in for the waiting Guard armies like Vraks.

If, in the above scenario, everything went exactly opposite to the plan and the solar megaplex is actually powering the cloaking system for a Tau forward base (thus the snappy fleet response time) and the planetary force's weapons ran on geothermal power, I am curious what the SM commander would think of. Accustomed to victory, but seeing the scale of enemy force dramatically upgraded, and with high allied casualties, would the Marines run and fetch their brothers? Would they think up an equally elegant plan to defeat the new enemies? Would they harass enemy forces while waiting for aid? Would they fling preservation to the wind and die to the last to destroy the forward base full of devious xenos in spectacular fashion? The answer lies in the specific Chapter in question, and your interpretation of the 40k universe, and the time period of the battle, but SM aren't known for their subtlety when it comes time to purge some enemies for their granddad.

I wonder if an RT game in the era of the Great Crusade could be made to happen... you would be limited to a trader militant, yes, and there would have to be some mechanic to make the advancing fleets a reality (turning wheel campaign?), but having a few thousand Legiones Astartes six months or a year behind you in the warp could be kind of fun... like setting a gym rope alight and watching my players try to outpace the flames.

The SM are veterans of a thousand psychic wars...erm, I mean a thousand battles and maybe hundreds of years of constant warfare. Certainly their captains are. I expect that many RT dynasties could pull off the above scenario with their best troops, the RT, and his/her wonderbuddies...if they could figure the plan out in the first place. That's where the experience of the SM captain comes into play. He sifted through a mound of data to come up with the megaplex weakness (who was to know that was their primary and chief source of power generation, let alone the weakness of the single component that actually beamed the power to the planet in question?), and he sifted through another mountain of data to come up with the remote (and mobile) moon base. And if, as Keeper151 suggests, the plan goes awry, he has a Plan B, Plan C, and Plan D that will equally incapacitate his enemy's defenses. Those plans are probably already in motion, too. After all, he has an entire company at his disposal and it only took a single squad for that mission.

I just don't ever see them leading an armored column anywhere, or any of a half dozen other missions they are used for on the tabletop. Why would you put super-warriors inside tanks...dreadnoughts maybe, but tanks? They have powered armor that permits them to carry weapons to dispatch tanks with. What do they need a tank for? If they have to get somewhere fast then they have a variety of flyers, or drop pods if flyers aren't convenient. Tanks are superfluous to their mission. If they are forced into a defensive posture then it might be time to cut and run. Opportunities might present themselves later. Few planets are worth the sacrifice of a even a squad of such troops.

And yes, the independence of these troops makes them problematic to any Imperial general. They are unreliable. Their counsel is undoubtedly priceless, but their participation is questionable. Best just to get their advice and hope they plan to do something that supports your objectives.

I still see the need for armored vehicles in the Space Marine armory. Their tanks are specialist creations, dedicated to one role and one role only. The Land Raider is a moving bunker, the Predator either an infantry or tank destroyer. In my mind these can supplement what is necessary for the mission at hand or fulfill a vital tactical role when the need arises.

Sometimes the Space Marines might need a near-unstoppable beast like the Land Raider to get somewhere, or maybe they need a rhino to quickly move across an open sprawl where flyers might be incapable of reaching. The tanks of the Astartes provide versatility more than anything in my opinion, they are there when they are needed and can be counted on to do what they are meant to in any given situation.

I'm not buying it, SCKoNi. I just can't see it. They need to cross where flyers can't reach? Redeploy to the cruiser and drop pod in. I do admit that the Land Raider is a specialized vehicle with possible roles for the SM, but Rhinos? They are M113's with more armor, but the same high profile. Where's the centuries of experience in that high profile? And while I happen to like Whirlwinds they are the opposite of anything marines should be deploying. Marines should be stealthy, attacking where not expected, not coming in under a bombardment. Need an infantry destroyer? Bring along heavy bolters, plasma cannon, and rocket launchers. Need a tank destroyer? Bring along multimeltas and rocket launchers. SM should be used where resistance isn't expected to be heavy, so their armor should be sufficicent protection. In fact, I never really saw a need for TAC squads. Every squad should be a DEV squad and every single marine should be carrying a heavy weapon. I take that back. ASS squads definitely have a role. I still don't see TAC squads, though. Maybe I'm living in a post-Traveller or Starship Troopers (the book, not the nerfed movie versions) 'verse with the addition heavy-mecha. I understand that terminator suits are rare, but powered armor should still be able to handle shoulder-mounted launchers with a single-shot dedicated missile (HEAP, HESH, HE, AA, etc.). More than likely, though, a squadron of Land Speeders would be better than any of the other SM vehicles for most situations.

Ok, it's late and I'm now rambling. Check back tomorrow.

My first question would be: Why would my IG like to invade immediately? Is the general in command a secret agent of the Tau or worse? Attacking a planet while there still is an enemy fleet in system is the height of folly. Only if time is of supreme essence should such an action even be considered. First, secure that system superiority by destroying or driving off that Tau fleet, where you should be able to make great use of those Space Marines.

Once the first phase, system supremacy, has been accomplished, you can start the next phase: planetary defense suppression. First off all aimed at destroying the planetary defenses capable of dealing damage to your ships: torpedo launchers, planetary lance batteries, air bases and the like. Again a phase where the supreme orbital attack capability of Space Marines will come into play. Once you can keep your ships in relative safety in orbit, you can proceed by attacking any hostile concentrations and infrastructure. If at all possible (and wished for, considering the destruction you might wreak upon the planet), you can should maintain this as long as needed.

Only then will the IG carry out its invasion, aiming for a good planetary airhead first in which it can bring its vulnerable heavy lifters and the crucial follow on forces. Space Marines could be used here to knock out vital left over defenses or kept as a reserve to swing the tide of battle if need be.

Finally, our IG can proceed with its full conquest of the planet. Again Space Marines could be used, heading vital assaults or executing special operations. But only if need be. Normally, the battle should be won by now, even if the fighting might still last a long time.

Your Space Marines are a precious lancet that you can use to execute limited very high value operations. Sometimes, these might be shortcuts to victory (as in the above example), but this likely is the exception. In all cases, their use should be offensive (or in a counterattack). If you ever order them to hold ground at all cost, you better make sure this is very important ground indeed or you can kiss your stripes goodbye and put on that explosive collar of a shtrafbat.

Almost forgot this one: If Grey Knight are not available (which will happen often) Space Marines are obviously the choice troops to use against daemons and their like. They have the mental fortitude and physical prowess to stand against such foes.

Riebeek brings up a good point: what, exactly, is there that ONLY Space Marines can do? Or is it the fact that a normal chapter can do what ten times their number of highly trained mission-specific IG forces can do, usually in a fraction of the time?

I find my players dredging up any possible reason to employ Marines... some of them truly ludicrous and most of them because they didn't want to take the time to re-equip and retrain their house guard regiment after expected losses. I deliberately make SM factions in my universe very hard to contact and even harder to gain audience with. One player resorted to plunging into an active warzone where Marines were known to be operating in the hopes of gaining their respect through shared combat (which I went along with, it turned out to be a really fun side campaign) and just maybe the ability to directly contact them and try to talk them into joining the occasional battle (at a -50 before modifiers for the plan in mind). A few campaigns later, the player decided to use his favor and managed to talk the marines into helping him destroy a 4000-year old temple to Nurgle and the 10k year old Death Guard champ running the place and spreading the plague of unbelief to several planets in the sector because they also got a shiny toy they lost a few thousand years ago. They only fought in three battles, and operated largely out of my RT's chain of command, forcing my player to work around their plan. They drop-podded in once the defenders of the temple were fully deployed, cutting the siege short and throwing the gates of the temple open for the RT's regiments. After the RT chased the cultists into their tunnels, the marines broke into 5-man squads and broke resistance in the main centers of defense. Finally, once the house troops pushed the cultists back to the final sanctum and the DG champ was revealed, the 20 marines that deployed for the mission descended on him en masse and, after some exchange of rhetoric, the brother-sergeant challenged the champ to a duel (which he lost. It was a good fight though) before the rest of the group took to avenging their fallen leader by dumping 32 bolter mags, two plasma flasks, and two heavy flamer tanks into the DG champ and systematically slagging the remains with their plasma weapons. Then they tossed the champ's trophy room until they found the relic they wanted and left with barely a "for the emprah".

The combat action did not require them, but their timing and combat effectiveness saved tens of thousands of house troops' lives and a siege that could have lasted months or perhaps a year was transformed into an overnight battle. The house troops could have done it themselves, but the ability to work with marines made this operation much simpler. Personally, I think Marines exist because they are awesomeness incarnate and peerless glory snatchers (as well as the highest-selling faction), but their qualities make employing them "properly" and not letting them dominate the action a tricky proposition. Motivation of the marines in question, as well as availability of forces and difficulty of contact are all huge issues I force my players to deal with if they somehow manage to make a decently rational reason to call in the Marines.

I'm not buying it, SCKoNi. I just can't see it. They need to cross where flyers can't reach? Redeploy to the cruiser and drop pod in. I do admit that the Land Raider is a specialized vehicle with possible roles for the SM, but Rhinos? They are M113's with more armor, but the same high profile. Where's the centuries of experience in that high profile? And while I happen to like Whirlwinds they are the opposite of anything marines should be deploying. Marines should be stealthy, attacking where not expected, not coming in under a bombardment. Need an infantry destroyer? Bring along heavy bolters, plasma cannon, and rocket launchers. Need a tank destroyer? Bring along multimeltas and rocket launchers. SM should be used where resistance isn't expected to be heavy, so their armor should be sufficicent protection. In fact, I never really saw a need for TAC squads. Every squad should be a DEV squad and every single marine should be carrying a heavy weapon. I take that back. ASS squads definitely have a role. I still don't see TAC squads, though. Maybe I'm living in a post-Traveller or Starship Troopers (the book, not the nerfed movie versions) 'verse with the addition heavy-mecha. I understand that terminator suits are rare, but powered armor should still be able to handle shoulder-mounted launchers with a single-shot dedicated missile (HEAP, HESH, HE, AA, etc.). More than likely, though, a squadron of Land Speeders would be better than any of the other SM vehicles for most situations.

Ok, it's late and I'm now rambling. Check back tomorrow.

Let's just start with the fact that the Astartes are VERY different from Heinlein's 'Apes'! The Apes had pocket nukes, Plasma guns Y-rack grenade launchers and were ALL jump troops to boot! on the downside, they were normal humans inside. (If you want to call someone with roughly the same level of training as a Navy Seal or Spetznaz commando 'normal'!)

On the flipside, The Astartes are most definitely NOT normal! They are Super human in almost every way down to their Mental conditioning. Their armor is unfortunately, just that, Armor. Aside from a few nifty gadgets it does not have nearly the same capability as a Marauder suit!

As to the Space marines use of vehicles, I would say it depends heavily on which chapter you are referring too! The Raven Guard operate pretty much as you describe but the Imperial fists or the Storm Wardens both lay claim to specialize in "mounted" warfare you say they wouldn't do!

As to why, I can think of many reasons why Aerial insertion via Stormraven or thunderhawk might not be appropriate. Weather and electronic warfare can drastically impede the effectiveness of aircraft and an open killzone plane can make stealth almost irrelevant! That being said, I cannot see ANY Space marine force allowing itself to become involved in the same kind of Attrition based slog that the IG often does! SM armor and even their artillery is designed for close support rather than the long range pounding of IG Basilisks. Additionally, tactical mobility, especially in Urban settings, is vastly improved with Rhino APC' vs aircraft (Which provide Strategic mobility rather than tactical.) Space marine Armor is also highly specialized; All of the Predator variants would more correctly be termed Tank destroyers rather than actual tanks, The Vindicator is actually an emplacement killer and the Whirlwind is a close support light artillery piece. None of these vehicles actually have the Armor to stand up to a head on tank battle with the mighty Leman Russ which sort of suggests that they are not intended too! Even the mighty Land Raider is not really a tank per se. It is basically a Super-heavy APC. In combat against a Main battle tank like the Leman Russ it will stand up pretty well but, put it up against an actual counterpart like a IG's terrifying Baneblade and it's not going to be pretty!

In short, The Space Marine's armor capability provides an impressive support capability but is not really designed or intended to provide the kind of high-intensity armored warfare capability that is more commonly found in the Imperial guard.

One thing that is often missed though is the amount of capability a Space marine Battle company brings with it! While pretty much everyone realizes that a Space marine Battle company consists of roughly 100 battle brothers, think about what they bring with them:

A Naval battlegroup consisting of a Strike cruiser and (Typically) Two escorts.

Three Aerospace squadrons consisting of:

1 Thunderhawk Gunship Squadron

1 Thunderhawk Transport squadron

1 Aeronautica Squadron consisting of three flights: 1 flight Stormravens, 1 Flight Stormhawk Interceptors and one flight Stormtalon gunships.

An Armored Company consisting of:

1 Landraider

1 Vindicator

2 Predators

3 Whirlwinds

2 Hunter anti-air vehicles

1 Stalker Anti-Air vehicle

Dedicated transports to include:

6 Rhino APC's

2 Razorback APC's

12 Combat Bikes

4 Attack Bikes

4 landspeeders

Support forces including:

1-2 Scout squads

(Potentially) 1 Terminator squad

Assorted combat and Utility servitors

Various Auxilia serfs

While these numbers would change depending on the Chapter, They would be fairly typical of a Codex Battle company like the Ultramarines or Dark angels. As you can see, This is a tremendously powerful force that has the very real potential to end many conflicts before they even really get started!

My first question would be: Why would my IG like to invade immediately? Is the general in command a secret agent of the Tau or worse? Attacking a planet while there still is an enemy fleet in system is the height of folly. Only if time is of supreme essence should such an action even be considered. First, secure that system superiority by destroying or driving off that Tau fleet, where you should be able to make great use of those Space Marines.

Once the first phase, system supremacy, has been accomplished, you can start the next phase: planetary defense suppression. First off all aimed at destroying the planetary defenses capable of dealing damage to your ships: torpedo launchers, planetary lance batteries, air bases and the like. Again a phase where the supreme orbital attack capability of Space Marines will come into play. Once you can keep your ships in relative safety in orbit, you can proceed by attacking any hostile concentrations and infrastructure. If at all possible (and wished for, considering the destruction you might wreak upon the planet), you can should maintain this as long as needed.

Only then will the IG carry out its invasion, aiming for a good planetary airhead first in which it can bring its vulnerable heavy lifters and the crucial follow on forces. Space Marines could be used here to knock out vital left over defenses or kept as a reserve to swing the tide of battle if need be.

Finally, our IG can proceed with its full conquest of the planet. Again Space Marines could be used, heading vital assaults or executing special operations. But only if need be. Normally, the battle should be won by now, even if the fighting might still last a long time.

Your Space Marines are a precious lancet that you can use to execute limited very high value operations. Sometimes, these might be shortcuts to victory (as in the above example), but this likely is the exception. In all cases, their use should be offensive (or in a counterattack). If you ever order them to hold ground at all cost, you better make sure this is very important ground indeed or you can kiss your stripes goodbye and put on that explosive collar of a shtrafbat.

This (And a few other comments above) sort of ties in with what I've been saying above. Space marines have by virtue of their extensive integral support, mobility and individual combat capability, the ability to make a HUGE difference at the critical junctures of any conflict. They can fight anywhere, in any environment, against any foe and still shine in the process. That is their greatest advantage! If the Astartes are forced into an attrition based conflict they will not fair well but they will NEVER willingly let that happen! This also explains why Space marine Captains and Chapter masters are so reluctant to place themselves or their troops under the command of an outside agency! They are not about to let themselves be 'sacrificed' for someone else's plan!

As rambling as I was, Radwraith, I made the distinction of aerial vs. drop pod insertion. And I'm obviously aware of the armaments of the original Starship Troopers, as I noted the difference between the book and movie versions (you are aware that the Y-shaped grenade launchers were the agency of launched pocket nukes? That's in addition to the missile-launched nukes that were only handed out on semi-special occasions...I think they were developed for the Bugs, I don't recall their use against the Skinnies.).

Your mention of the various chapters bears special comments. Yes, the type I've brought up do describe the Raven Guard. It's my contention that all marines would operate more like the Raven Guard or would simply cease to exist. In my mind Imperial Fist and Storm Warden-type chapters would have a very limited half life.

Your OB for a battle company might be textbook full complement, but my most recent SM Codex indicates that this is not the norm. In fact, it's nowhere near it. I'm going on memory here but the Ultramarines, arguably the wealthiest and best equipped chapter, had only about 20 Thunderhawks for the entire chapter, not even enough for 2 per ship with the capability of carrying Thunderhawks (they had like 3 barges and 8 cruisers, IIRC). I'm not even sure why BFG made strike cruisers with a landing bay component, given the paucity of Thunderhawks. Yes, I know these sources came out at varying times in a relatively long history of GW, which explains many of the inconsistencies in said sources.

Now one thing about those vehicles...I think the techmarine on board the strike cruiser can modify those Rhino chassis into any of the other vehicles except the Land Raider and Land Speeder (obviously not those 2). Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Hunters, Stalkers, and Razorbacks are all just Rhinos with an addition or change of armament, and I find no reason the techmarines can't switch out the armament to field a different vehicle. It takes time, of course, but it saves on resources and makes the marines more flexible.

Still, I think you'd find it hard to come up with a tactical situation where SM in vehicles are needed that an IG regiment or 10 can't do the job just as well, or that SM without vehicles can't do the job even better than the SM with vehicles. And I'm near certain that you can't come up with enough of those situations to warrant an entire arm of the Imperium to deal with those sitations. Don't get me wrong. I love SM and what little of their fluff I've read. It's entertaining stuff. I just don't buy into a lot of it. Maybe the SM chapters are just feudal anachronisms that won't let go of their privileges and power. That explanation I can live with.

Wasn't meaning to impugn your knowledge Errant. My compliments actually! Not many people these days have read the original "Starship troopers". Shame really!

When I mentioned the limitations of aircraft, I was also referring to the difficulties of extraction in a Hostile combat zone. It is also theoretically possible for the marines to be tasked with a "Hold until relieved" objective in a critical situation. In either of these cases the additional firepower of the unit's vehicles or their lesser vulnerability to AA fire would be useful.

While I do believe that Techmarines could probably reconfigure their company's Rhinos into any of the "Alternate" configurations, they would still require enough of the base chassis and spare parts to do so! I haven't seen the most recent Codex yet but 20 Thunderhawk's across an entire chapter? That's pretty ridiculous! Not that you're wrong, It just doesn't compute that there would be so few across an entire chapter when the vehicle is still in production!

Full disclosure, when I play TT Space marines the chapter I field is in fact Raven guard so I agree with you on tactical employment. I was just trying to point out that their are other chapters that do it differently. Some very much so! In a number of the fluff stories I've read, the author seems to take great pains in having the Imperial Fists take the roll of "Victim" to some greater calamity! We are all in agreement that NO Space Marine chapter or Battle company would allow themselves to become bogged down in some attrition based slog through the trenches! I tend to view their vehicles as a means of supporting a Blitzkrieg type assault on a vital objective followed by a rapid tactical re positioning to a different location. Their Armored vehicles would also be useful in plugging a breach in friendly defences (Again, only in a critical situation!).

To me, like you, most Space Marine engagements would be short termed in and out smash and grab type stuff. The tools used would be whatever the Commanding officer determined they would be! But said officer would want maximum flexibility in his choices!

Space Marine armor seems indeed odd at the first glance, considering that the orbital/aerial mobility of Space Marines seems their main operational asset. Compared to the real world (and yes, I know this won't be a perfect comparison) this gives them an odd mix of gliderborne (drop pods bringing in formed units and heavier weapons but no redeployment) and airmobile (Thunderhawks compare nicely to Hinds on steroids) capabilities. Exploiting these to the fullest seems the wisest course during planetary operations, making Space Marines the troops of choice for high value raids and coups-de-main. Actions like the Ranger attack on Pointe du Hoc or the Airborne assault on the bridges over the Orne spring to mind.

However, armor and airmobility can mix. While most Western airborne forces are almost completely infantry based, the USSR invested massively in the mechanization of its airborne forces. I have my doubts about the wisdom of this choice, as in my opinion the main limitation of airborne forces is its airlift and mechanized airborne forces demand far more airlift capability for a given force, but there can be no denial that the added protection, firepower and most of all mobility are a great tactical and operational bonus. Considering the small size of a Space Marine forces and its near limitless resources (Those Codices have to be 'interpreted' to make sense; only 20 Thunderhawks but 3 Battle Barges; laughable) airlift should be a commodity they have aplenty.

This makes their armor more sensible. Basicly, Space Marines seem to have two chassis they can use, the Rhino and the Land Raider. The Rhino (and all the variants constructed on its chassis) seems to fulfill admirably the role of a relatively light armored vehicle that is quite easily transported by air (your BMD 1/2/3 or Sprut SD). The Land Raider seems very heavy for this airmobile role, but would fit perfectly as that near indestructible heavy hitting IFV/MBT crossbreed which a Space Marine company could use if it deployed in support of an Imperial Guard mechanized force. The latter role would not be their normal mission, but might still take place.

No matter how awesome Astartes are purported to be, and in my opinion, they are really only good at a few types of actions, based on their numbers, and support issues, I'd usually argue that the amount of work that would go into gaining their aide would outpace the benefit of that aide. Honestly, and I know how dumb what I'm about to say sounds, as a Rogue Trader, I'd almost rather spend my money trying to get my heir, or some of my military assets, trained by an Astartes, and just take away a little of the awesome that is supposed to be their skill. Not the stuff requiring being superhuman, mind, but some of the mindset, the tactical, outside-the-box thinking, and getting it done with low numbers. I'm sure someone will say it's impossible, with the training, and more, Astartes go through, but I don't buy it; if we can describe how it works, in their fiction, it's something "regular" people can grasp, just maybe not endure. My own RT is a ridiculous sort, but his father certainly paid for him to get training from the Navy, and combat/ground training from a small detachment of Storm Troopers; he got the skills, just not the mindset, and came out a goof, like several of my real-life friends, who I hoped, upon going into a military branch, would get the stupid beat out of them, a bit, and come back more grown-up, mature people. Didn't happen with a one of them, though they got to travel, I suppose, and learned some skills. Still make immensely stupid choices, easily, though. Sorry, went into babble-mode, again.

It just seems so difficult to tie one's actions to a group of Space Marines. I'd love it if they were more giving with their stuff; for instance, if the Blood Angels said "we need your ship to transport us to this location, and the use of your House Troops, aboard, to support us, on the ground", if it felt like the opportunity to get one hell of a reward, like the chance to get a Land Raider, or a Thunderhawk (yes, I picked HUGE, but these are the sorts of things Astartes have, and other people WANT), I'd do it in a heartbeat, but all you might get is a job well done, maybe a talent with them, and probably never see them again, anyway, and that's it. I really like Space Marines, and they are good at what they do, but I'm unsure how helpful they would really be to a Rogue Trader, if such an arrangement could even be made.

I'm with you about Space Marines in Rogue Trader, Venk. They have little place in a campaign. I have a few of them show up in every campaign, but more often than not they are a hindrance to the Dynasty. I like my players to look upon SM as zealots to be avoided, not heroes of the Imperium, and if they come to my game thinking otherwise I do all in my power to change that perception.

Sorry if I was snappish, Radwraith. You bring up an interesting point...extraction. I've been in a couple Deathwatch campaigns and one was by far the most interesting. Everyone and anyone could be GM. All scenarios had to be one-offs. Make a scenario and run it in one session. We set it up this way because all players were family and career people. We knew attendance would be spotty if a game was run ona weekly basis. Attendance wasn't important because each session stood on its own. You might have 3 players one session and 6 the next, and it didn't matter. All scenarios had 4 scenes: requisition, deployment, battle, and extraction. First, we would determine a plan, take our oaths, elect our commander, and equip our marines. The plan was the lengthy part. The PCs would always be the smash and grab guys. Other kill-teams (of whom anyone absent was considered part of) would deploy to take out any air defenses and secure the LZ for extraction. After making our assault and returning to the extraction point, if there was plenty of time left in the play session, then the GM was free to add complications. Otherwise, it was load up and fly back to orbit. Yes, there was a case once where one of the air defense locations was a bit far from the LZ and vehicles were needed. Bikes were used.

I wish I had access to that SM Codex, Rad. We recently remodelled the house and I'm afraid all those books are still packed away. I don't even know where to look. You'd be mortified by the paucity of vehicles available to the Ultramarines. It had a complete listing for the entirety of the chapter. Mind you, this was in the aftermath of the Tyrranid invasion, but the Ultramarines have an empire to draw upon, and thousands of their own Imperial Guard regiments. Still, IG equipment is not SM equipment, and the book gives a much different picture of just how rare SM equipment is. The number in my head is 19 Thunderhawks and I don't remember if that's a total figure or just the gunships. The numbers of armored vehicles is even more astounding. It is mentioned somewhere that the Raven Guard tends to have more Thunderhawks than most chapters, and less vehicles. The RG have their own mini-forge world, but I fail to see how that competes with the Ultramarine empire of Ultramar. I think the book is 5E, but I don't remember for sure, and of course that would be one of the few I don't have on pdf.

And Van Reibeeck, while the concept of airborne armor isn't really feasible with today's technology I fully concede that it is feasible in the future, and undoubtedly feasible with 40K technology. I do find this something more in the realm of what battle barges do, though, not strike cruisers. In my mind, in codex chapters, strike cruisers carry battle companies while battle barges carry all the reserve companies, a smattering of the first company veterans, and some scouts. Battle barges are the ships that can deploy an armored column, not that light cruiser don't have the space to carry a mere company of armor...we all know better than that, at least by FFG standards. Consider that the SM have more orbit-to-surface vehicles available than just Thunderhawks.

The capability of putting 6 Rhino-chassis vehicles down in a single lift isn't inconsiderable, but then again it isn't condusive to a large-scale invasion.

Not to beat on the Ultramarines, because I've made it rather clear I like them, while harping on the Blood Angels, and Space Wolves, but I always just assumed that Matt Ward made sure the Ultramarines had a Webway portal, connecting Mars to McCragge, in order to supply them with all their vehicles. The Ultramarines are bigger than many Chapters, certainly most of the others that actually FOLLOW their Codex Astartes, so it seems sort of normal for them to have more Whirlwinds, Predators, and Thunderhawks than many other Chapters. After the entire 1st Company got wiped, I sort of assume they have a higher number of Dreadnoughts, too, but that's just being rude. Thing is, depending on their job, I don't see why they would be seen to field many of these vehicles. They need to guard Ultramar, sure, so THERE, they could have Whirlwinds, Predators, and that, but going in, I imagine a Rhino, OR a Land Raider, and those assume they didn't drop in, and MAYBE Landspeeders, if none of the above, but beyond "other armies have tanks, and the Marines can't always be relied upon to kill those tanks, so they would need tanks to fight tanks", I've never really understood why they need some of them. I can also imagine, sometimes, the benefits IG could gain if they had Land Raiders, Predators, and Whirlwinds, but oh well.

Airborne armor is quite feasible these days: every Soviet/Russian style airborne force is based on it. The main problem is that for the strategic delivery of airborne armor one needs an airfield of sorts, now that gliders are a thing of the past. On the operational/tactical scale, helicopters can do the job.

A good example is found during the Ogaden war in 1978. A Cuban mechanized airborne brigade sized force was used in a classical pincer movement. Highly interesting stuff, but relatively little known in the West.

The Guard cannot have Land Raiders, due to a decree by the Emperor towards the end of the Great Crusade. As for airborne armour, all the transports used by the Astartes are VTOL or single shot breachers like drop pods. And the various armour used by the Astartes is the opposite of the Guard: nothing but Rhinos for basic transport and piles of specialist vehicles. The Imperial Guard uses mostly generalist vehicles that can give a good account of themselves on most battlefields, and deploy all or most of their strength for each regiment in every campaign. The Astartes will pick and choose only what the current mission requires, and may well leave 75% or more of their vehicles idle during any one deployment. Each chapter also maintains a vast armoury with backups and reserves, with specialist vehicles and equipment that may only see deployment a few times a century. The fluff makes it clear they don't have the manpower to crew all or even most of the vehicles at full strength without breaking up company squads. Rhinos get used to provide quick, armoured transport from A to B in areas where thunderhawks cannot deploy, after the initial landing. Everything else has one or two specific roles, and would only do something else due to lack of resources-most likely combat damage and losses. Look at all the variants of the basic Rhino and Land Raider; a Prometheus serves a very different purpose than a Terminus Ultra, and the Guard lacks a direct analogue of either. An imperial commander would have to make due with Leman Russ Eradicators/Vanquishers, and do a substantial worse job with many more tanks.

Finally, there are some battlefields where the endless numbers of the Guard become irrevelant and the Navy cannot conduct an orbital strike. Toxic atmospheres that would kill an unprotected human in seconds and burn through seals and filters in minutes, extreme temperature, pressure and gravitational forces that only power armor or a void suit can withstand; atmospheric conditions that blind orbital sensors and auspex, while reducing visual range to arm's length. Even in more normal conditions there will be places where it doesn't matter how many millions of soldiers you toss into the meatgrinder: you need superior troops to punch through fortified positions it could take decades to wear down or undermine with standard troops. Dense terrain, urban combat, clearing labyrinths and bunkers, there are plenty more where Astartes can do in days or hours what would take years for many times their number; freeing up troops to be deployed to other battlefields or reinforce crucial fronts.

While I do not doubt the fact that Astartes excel at close combat where their superlative skills, superior weaponry and power armor give them an immense tactical advantage, such fights are by their very nature fights of attrition. In my eyes, the last is exactly what you should try to prevent as an Astartes commander, for attrition is the bane of a Space Marines chapter. Every single marine that is lost takes decades to replace: you have to find the right recruits, introduce the genetic modifications and the extensive training that makes an Astartes the superlative soldier that he is. Serious losses to a company - or worse, a chapter - will render this unit combat ineffective for a long while. Or let me rephrase that last sentence, will force a commander to retire said company or chapter, for the destruction of such a unit does not bear thinking off.

Now there will obviously be cases where need prevails over caution. If a summoning of a major daemon is undertaken, when a crucial manufactorum of the Mechanicus is under the threat of imminent destruction or when traitor legions are banging on the doors of Terra, yes, in those cases Space Marine losses will become a moot point. Then speed becomes of the essence and the Astartes will be given their moment to shine in a moment of blazing self immolating glory.

But if I have to take a rebellious Hive in some sub-sector and am slowly but surely grinding my way to its inner core with my Imperial Guard army of millions, that Space Marine company that has been graciously committed to my support will be placed in reserve, only to be used if I spot that one chance not to be missed to kill the rebellious governor in his deep bunker complex or that fleeting opportunity to knock out the rebellious power supply. I can easily replace the 100.000 guardsmen I lose during this battle. But if that company Astartes blunders into an artillery barrage and is blown to pieces, their loss is near irreplaceable.

Well, I just had to go and find it. It's written by Matt Ward and I think the copyright is 2008. The entirety of the Ultramarines has...

• 3 battle barges
• 8 strike cruisers
• 12 rapid strike vessels
• 31 Thunderhawk gunships (doesn't list transports)
• 13 Land Raiders
• 25 Predators
• 8 Vindicators
• 9 Whirlwinds
• 26 Dreadnoughts
• Land Speeders (unlisted)

And Idaeus is still listed as Captain of the 4th Company, so this predates the Tyrannid invasion. So much for vast arsenals of vehicles.

And Van Reibeeck, yes the Soviets had "airborne armor," in fact I believe the vehicles were airborne and amphibious, but the armor part is being pretty generous as I think those vehicles would be hard pressed to bound a round from an M2HB.

Well, there are some pretty huge disparities depending on the chapter in question, along with the the time frame. And the edition. And the codex/supplement/novel. And who happens to be writing it. Don't get too bogged down in the details, and write in what you want to; there are enough chapters for a huge range of equipment and tactics, and most of what we are discussing are generalizations. More recently, the big tabletop push from Forge World/Horus Heresy lines suddenly adds numerous new variants and superheavies that were there all along but never mentioned before.

Ultramarine Tanks look right, if a bit light on land raiders. Likely have enough Rhinos and Razorbacks to mount most of the chapter. And don't forget the Genesis Chapter, an entire chapter of marines used as reserves and reinforcements by the Ultramarines, even filling in vacant squads and specialist positions when the Ultramarines get bloodied. That Ultramarine Fleet looks about right: most fluff gives the majority of chapters 2 or 3 battle barges and 3-6 strike cruisers, with 10-30 escorts. Too few thunderhawks, most likely a mistake substituting one per launch bay rather than a squadron. One battle barge alone could carry all of those, depending on the variant. Larger chapters like the Space Wolves and Black Templars would likely pack larger armouries, and much bigger fleets. Also depends on the heritage of the chapter-original legions and second founding chapters are more likely to pack the really good stuff like Mastodons, Sicarans, and older pattern land raiders; reputation, long history for collecting requisitions, and even hand-me-downs from the second founding. The only chapters stated to have overwhelming armouries are the Salamanders, since they kept all of the legion kit after the Heresy and have the skill to maintain it: and Imperial Fists, who get much of their stuff directly from Mars.

Don't take the figures as gospel, just fall back on the mantra that goes back to second edition-everything is canon, but not everything is true or accurate.

There are supposedly 1000 chapters, and most of them are descended from the Ultramarines. That would mean much of the Ultramarine equipment lockers would be plundered in providing for the creation of those chapters. This might help explain their lack of vehicles. I would think that most chapters have only 1-2 battle barges and 3-5 strike cruisers, with a great discrepancy in escorts. In fact, entire chapters might be reduced to using only escorts. At FFG scales, though, escorts could carry an entire chapter with an IG regiment on board for backup.

A dear, the more one thinks about it, the rarer Space Marines get. A 1000 chapters each no more than 1000 Astartes strong to cover more than a millions worlds? That's not even a chapter for each sector or a Space Marine per planet.

Errant Knight: I fully agree with you on the vulnerability of the Soviet airborne armor. They would be highly vulnerable against any serious opposition. But then, I have my doubts about the whole Soviet airborne concept. It drained the best officers and men from the tank and all-arms divisions while its usefulness in a NATO versus Warsaw Pact confrontation would have been limited. I just don't see how the Warsaw Pact air forces could have gained sufficient air control and air defense suppression to use them in any numbers. Furthermore, the huge airlift needed to transport this armor comes at a high price. Rather than a full battalion, you might be happy to drop a small company, and so forth. This company has increased firepower, far better tactical mobility and even some armor protection (against splinters and infantry weapons, but that is a great advantage), but less combat power than said battalion. Most importantly of all, it has far less staying power.

But this is again a naughty digression. Let's focus on the rare Space Marines here, who would never be used as callously as the USSR has used its paratroopers.

Well, the Space Marines are SUPPOSED to be rare, in the fiction, so the numbers aren't terrible. They were certainly never meant to be truly mass-produced, or stand in for the Imperial Guard, and so few helps explain why whole sectors never see them, and whole wars are fought where they do not participate, and this doesn't include organizations such as the Deathwatch, eating up Marines for years.

I suppose one little thing I've never entirely understood, and now I have to hope I don't use the wrong terms. Every Astartes possesses two Progenoid Glands, inside their bodies. These organs"create" the gene-seed, once placed within the Neophyte, and are, if my memory serves, what the Apothecaries retrieve from fallen Battle-Brothers, in order to safeguard the next generation of Astartes, for their Chapter. Where I get confused is why they are left in. I'm sure there's a window, of sorts, but I'd think after a few years, tops, they'd remove them from a healthy Marine, and then they'd be available to manufacture another Astartes, and while I know most of the parts out inside a Space Marine do something, I've never seen anything on these, that the complete Space Marine needs to function.

Heck Viper, I play the chapters any way I want them. After all, it's my campaign. I'm the one doing the major work. Still, I enjoy the banter about them. The only ones that see play time in my campaigns are either Raven Guard-esque or Deathwatch types, or they are comic relief chapters charging into oblivious extinction. Either way, they don't stick around for long...just play the role of the Mysterious Stranger and ride off into the sunset.

And actually, Van Reibeeck, I think the discussion of Soviet paratroopers brings us to many interesting points about the Space Marines. Here's another...while it is important to use them in small quantities in order to maximize their coverage it is still important to not scatter them to the winds. I am reminded of a quote from Brute Force , "As early as Sept. 26, 1940, the chief of the General Staff's organization branch informed Halder that too many divisions were being created. Even Hitler's closest military advisor, General Alfred Jodl, concluded that the Furhrer's decision to field 20 half-strength Panzer divisions constituted a waste of support troops and specialists. The Chief of the General Staff began to speak in terms of "good divisions and bad divisions" on August 12, 1940."

"Waste of suport troops and specialists" is the key phrase here. I interpret "waste" as meaning that they are not efficiently employed, which means those divisions should have been larger, which certainly seems to be the gist of the section. Techmarines, apothecaries, librarians, and specialist servitors are not being employed to their fullest potential when they are supporting a detachment that is too small. For example, the librarians, just like a decent astropath, gathers much information through divination, and having too many of them in a single detachment means there are other forces out there without a good diviner...wasting specialists. The same can be said of the other specialists. Yes, I know there are a buttload of teenyboppers out there that think a psyker per squad would be kewl, but that's not "realistic," given the scarcity of psykers, and the even rarer presence of one trained as a Space Marine.

Now Venkelos, since I now have a codex in my hands, let's look up the progenoid glands. Each marine has 2, one in the neck and 1 in the chest. They respond to other implants and create "germ cells" that correspond to the other implant organs. These germ cells grow and are stored in the progenoids, from whence they are retreived and grown into new implants for future marines. It beggars the imagination that the Imperium doesn't have a harem of these guys that do nothing but sit around creating more of themselves, so I must imagine that marines need to perform "marine-y" tasks in order to generate these germ cells. Maybe they don't grow germ cells for that second heart unless that second heart sometimes kicks in. Of course, a few live-fire exercises could simulate that need. I guess we just have to let that one slide down the suspension of disbelief category. It does mention that these progenoids are harvested when "mature," so maybe...and this actually makes sense, each marine that survives a decent number of campaigns actually produces several, or even many new implants. That might account for the increasing number of chapters.