slapping such a capability onto an astromech (When defending, before the "Modify Attack Dice Step", you may spend one of your focus tokens to remove a focus token from the attacker) would

1.) limit the impact of a torpedo scout list's incredible alpha strike

2.) force imperial aces to think twice about attacking your ships, as they risk losing their defensive focus

3.) give the VERY defensively challenged 1 agi Y and ARC a much needed bit of defensive tech (1 agi when focused is pretty naff; better to spend the focus to limit the enemy's offense)

This is an Astromech I could really get behind...

I really want to like the ARCs,I think it's a beautiful looking ship, but I think it's going to suffer the same problem that the B-Wing does which is that they cost a ton of points base and then you have to sink a ton more points into them (exception being Thane) to get the most out of them. Now you have a 30-40 point ship with middling pilot skill and poor defensive abilities that is prey for just about everything else popular in the meta right now. Palp Aces, Torps Scouts, Dengaroo, soon enough Protectorate Fighters, are all going to murder the poor ARCs.

the ARC has quite a few pronounced advantages over the B

first is it can actually ARC (heh) dodge, due to being able to roll (also heh) with bb-8 and abuse the crap out of its auxiliary ARC (can't stop; won't stop). Basically, instead of arc dodging like your typical interceptor or w.e, you use the aux arc to fly in ways other ships simply can't without giving up their shots. It's basically what a firespray wishes it could do, were it on a small base

Norra is also simply capable of farting out more damage than a B (how much I can't say because I can't math very well but her ability either represents a straight increase to an effective 4-dice primary or a more reliable 3 dice primary, as rolling even 2 hit/focus will let you guarantee the third hit with her ability)

Lastly, you can actually tank Norra up to some crazy levels (note: not crazy enough to survive torp scouts; no rebel regenerator is) with c3po and r2-d2. Those two represent two guaranteed damage canceled per round (r2-d2 "canceling" damage by regenerating it), 3 if you layer Norra's ability on top of them. This is kind of insane. If you get into a late game state v palp aces where it's just Norra and the Inquisitor (throw in the shuttle if you want; you should be able to outmanuever it ), you almost literally cannot be killed .

and Thane,....well Thane just hits hard if you don't target him

Point is, the B's a jouster and the ARC most certainly is not. It's got ways to work around the fact that it's not an x7 Defender

I wouldn't be concerned for the ARC's performance against non-Torpscout/dengaroo lists, it'll hold its own. The problem is those two jm5k archetypes just run roughshod over it (especially since you can Zuckuss c3po's evade)

they don't struggle versus Palp Aces AND jumpmasters, they struggle versus Palp Aces OR jumpmasters

you can make a squad that is almost auto-win against one (i.e, conner nets v Palp aces or higher PS ordnance v jumpmasters), but which will get annihilated by the other

there's not a lot of middle ground for rebels to take

This is pretty much Rebels problems in a nutshell. Right now it's extremely difficult to build a decent Rebel list that is good vs all comers. There is almost always some hole where one or more of the other faction's popular meta list will simply roll over you while imperials and Scum have one or more list archetypes that you can take, modify slightly to personal preference, and expect to do well for yourself regardless of what your opponent brings to the table.

I am aware that some high level tournaments this season have been have been won by Rebel players so yes it is still possible to play Rebels and do well but they are the exception to the rule, not the norm.

Rebels have sadly really fell behind on the Agility hate tech, they struggle to break 4 evades as well as fold to multiple Torpedoes.

Paul Heaver has managed to win Worlds 3 years in a row. Not by taking the best ship in the meta, but by extensively analysing it and producing a list that render's every meta-list inert, and then play proceeds based on player skill alone. He then wins through talent.

The reason that Rebles are used for those kinds of lists is because they've normally got counters to the meta already in the game, just undiscovered (Fat Han in 2014, stressbot in 2015). Once FFG brings out a proper T-65 fix everything will be fine, because Wes Janson with VI counters the meta, but doesn't yet have the staying power to mop up afterwards.

People bend their brains looking for rebel hard counters to both imperial aces and U-boats, but 100 pts isn't enough room. If one focuses one's efforts instead into rendering the key benefits of both those lists inert - not countered, but irrelevant - then therein will lie the solution.

Having just realised I became really whimsical there, without saying anything solid, here's a fun (non-competitive) example:

Fun Meta-Counter:

4 x Green Squadron Pilot (19)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

A-wing Test Pilot (0)

Crack Shot (1)

Juke (2)

Green Squadron Pilot (19)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

A-wing Test Pilot (0)

Crack Shot (1)

Adaptability (0)

Total: 98 Points.

Paul Heaver has managed to win Worlds 3 years in a row. Not by taking the best ship in the meta, but by extensively analysing it and producing a list that render's every meta-list inert, and then play proceeds based on player skill alone. He then wins through talent.

He does, and he'll find a way to work a HWK in there to boot.

I wonder what he thinks of threads like this one. It should be "YES" one reply and done. And the more "No" responders just make him more determined to make his next World's list a Rebel one. I really want to see what he could do with another faction...take 4 Sycks, or Talonbane. Run a Palp-Free Kagi to the top, or an exotic Oiccunn list.

It's almost like (this year especially) he's going to have to run Rebels again to prove that they aren't as weak as the people in these threads keep *cough* asserting.

But then again, maybe it is just talent alone that makes the difference.

People seem to be misunderstanding Paul Heaver's style. It's not to have some crazy quickly build insomuch as to cram as much efficiency into a list as possible *while* countering meta squads in the process.

His Han was only slightly different to the 'standard' build of the wave - but it was a hard counter to the standard one, and could rely on the standard to otherwise eliminate lists that would've been tougher to his counter build.

So if he's flying imperial? Yeah, count on palp. But don't count on much else.

Rebels are not in a very good place right now. I was hoping the ARC would be better than is (actually the ship is fine, I'm just not super impressed with the pilot abilities and lack of EPTs on two of the pilots) and that the upgrades would be more useful, especially R3. I'm still holding out hope that HotR will be full of useful things and help bring Rebels back up to par.

so this is something I want to address because I'm head over heels in love with the sexy thing that is the ARC, but it is basically exactly what the problem with rebels is currently in regards to torpedo scouts

Torpedo scouts present a very simple problem of an incredible amount of damage.

This is enough damage to push 1 or 2 points onto even the hyper defensive palp aces, but against most rebel ships especially those with 1 agility it's almost guaranteed death in a round

the counter to this is not R3's crappy evade, but stuff like Wes Jenson/Palob/Old Terry that removes the rather impressive amount of modifiers these ships are capable of producing

so it's not like Rebels are utterly ******, we're just missing an upgrade or two that gives high health with practically no damage mitigation a chance to survive an incredibly powerful alpha strike

slapping such a capability onto an astromech (When defending, before the "Modify Attack Dice Step", you may spend one of your focus tokens to remove a focus token from the attacker) would

1.) limit the impact of a torpedo scout list's incredible alpha strike

2.) force imperial aces to think twice about attacking your ships, as they risk losing their defensive focus

3.) give the VERY defensively challenged 1 agi Y and ARC a much needed bit of defensive tech (1 agi when focused is pretty naff; better to spend the focus to limit the enemy's offense)

that's all rebels need, really, a way to counteract the hyper modification of red/green dice in more ways than just "Wes Jenson." Guaranteed damage would be that way, if the incredible damage output and high health of the triple scout list didn't completely stone-wall you there.

we can hope to get it in Heroes (perhaps even on the one unique astro it's coming with), I suppose

R4-D6 guarantees 6 damage max from scouts, combine it with Wes and you see most likely only 5 damage in one turn on Biggs. Which I guess explains why Wes+Biggs + X

And a VCX-100 + Super Dash are the two "hot" rebel archetype list.

Rebels could be made a lot more dangerous with the following:

Rogue Squadron (Title, 3 points) _-wing only, unique pilot only

You share the pilot ability of each friendly ship equipped with Rogue squadron.

This gives you a lot of opportunity for combinations with Wedge + Luke + Wes or maybe Jake Farrel + Keyan Farlander + Horton Salm. You're pretty much limited to 3 ships, but you can get some really great - but not broken synergy.

I do, however, stand by my original statement that rebels are still viable in the current meta, but must be played differently in large scale tournaments.

Rebels are OK. They're hurting for a proper jouster fix though, and synergy and regen are cute, they do a while lot better when they're paired with dakka that hits like a truck

... You want rogue squadron to be IG-2000? On x-wings?

Biggs

Tarn

R7 on both

Dunno what the rest of the squad looks like, but this gives me pause even at first glance.

Rebels could be made a lot more dangerous with the following:

Rogue Squadron (Title, 3 points) _-wing only, unique pilot only

You share the pilot ability of each friendly ship equipped with Rogue squadron.

This gives you a lot of opportunity for combinations with Wedge + Luke + Wes or maybe Jake Farrel + Keyan Farlander + Horton Salm. You're pretty much limited to 3 ships, but you can get some really great - but not broken synergy.

I do, however, stand by my original statement that rebels are still viable in the current meta, but must be played differently in large scale tournaments.

Maybe something more suttle like:

"At start of Combat Phase, if you are at Range 1 of at least one other friendly with Rogue One title, you may recieve one evade token."

Gives Xwings a bit of defense with formation flying, and ability to equip juke for a bit more punch.

Everything is tournament viable.

All they need is a skilled player to command them. There is no secret ingredient to victory.

Hi guys,

Am still pretty new to the game, so have not been around when rebels were high and mighty, and totally OP, but it sure seems today, that Rebels are very much lagging behind, I have been to a bunch of tournaments, where Scum and Imperial are all over the place, but Rebels are very few and far between.

Are there any Rebel buiilds out there doing well?? The most I have seen, are the Dash and Ghost builds, apart from that, hardly anything to be seen.

I really like Poe, but again, you never see him around anymore.

And with wave 9 coming, with more Scum love, it seems Rebels will still be taking a back seat.

Which is all well and good, for the guys that were playing from the start, but us new guys, it really sucks that they are lagging so far behind.

I sure hope FFG, can bring a little love back for Rebels, at least make them viable.

Paul

Dash Ghost is good. Dash is still OP as ****.

5x Green Squadron A-Wings with refit, Adaptability, Crackshot, Autothrusters.

Gold Squadron with R4-D6 and Autoblaster Turret (ABT), 2x Lothal Rebel with FCS, ABT, one with Chopper Crew, the other with Hera crew.

Biggs with R4-D6, Regen Poe, 3rd ship of your choosing such as Wes Janson or Ten Nunb or a second regen ship.

Everything is tournament viable.

All they need is a skilled player to command them. There is no secret ingredient to victory.

This is a lie. Palp Aces or Dengaroo will carry a mediocre player hard.

Everything is tournament viable.

All they need is a skilled player to command them. There is no secret ingredient to victory.

eh....don't entirely agree

I believe there are more things that are tournament viable than believed, provided you're willing to put the effort to make them work

for example, the five Siener Test Pilots with title + prockets + g-chips from https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/225907-finally-got-to-play-my-5-tap-list-and-i-think-its-a-new-favorite/ I could actually see taking some events

but we have to understand that this is because the TAPs is capable of some very important things, such as

1. high speed blocking (5 foward + boost), which is crucial v the higher ps torp scouts
2. flexible blocking (both roll and boost), which can help you catch palp aces off guard
3. massive damage output with prockets, probably enough to overwhelm even Dengaroo if flown correctly

the TAPs, despite not being an efficient or even very impressive ship (outside the inquisitor), has the capability to perform a few crucial functions on the table

sure, it's dicey and requires good flying to coordinate your prockets with your blocking, but it has the potential to perform very well

by contrast, a bunch of generic X-wings are only good for rolling dice at people

... You want rogue squadron to be IG-2000? On x-wings?

Biggs

Tarn

R7 on both

Dunno what the rest of the squad looks like, but this gives me pause even at first glance.

I'm not at all in favor of X-Wings getting IG-2000, but if every ship is Biggs then no ship is Biggs.

Assuming you're going all in on X-Wings, but IG-2000 X-Wings would be a pretty good reason to do so.

That Rogue Squadron title seems a bit overpowered in retrospect. Perhaps a 5 pt cost instead.

Not everything is tournament viable. Six HWK rebel operatives will never win a game against a capable opponent. I doubt you could get damage on the board. 5 or them with dorsal turret, perhaps, but its still not as good as autoblaster y-wings.

I will win Australian Nationals with Rebels.

That Rogue Squadron title seems a bit overpowered in retrospect. Perhaps a 5 pt cost instead.

Not everything is tournament viable. Six HWK rebel operatives will never win a game against a capable opponent. I doubt you could get damage on the board. 5 or them with dorsal turret, perhaps, but its still not as good as autoblaster y-wings.

bit of a stretch here, but Rogue in Armada allows squadrons to activate without the assistance of a nearby capital ship

and Rogue Squadron is actually hitting Armada with the campaign box, and they appropriately have Rogue

so, for x-wing, to represent the apparent ability of this unit to operate apparently independently, here's my silly title

Rogue Squadron

When an upgrade or pilot ability affects "other friendly ships" or "another friendly ship", ignore any Range restrictions when determining if you are a legal target.

need to clean up the wording, since there's no precedent for this, but this lets the Rogue Squadron pilot benefit from jank support regardless of range restrictions , turning all support ships into basically Manaroo

and if Biggs could be the target of attack instead of the Rogue Squadron ship, the enemy would have to shoot Biggs instead of the Rogue Squadron no matter how far apart the two are

speaking of, I'd want to add a clause like

"When using a pilot or ability or upgrade which targets 'another friendly ship,' you may target yourself instead"

but it only really matters for Garven, as none of the other X-wings carry jank support and Biggs specifies "other friendly ships"

squad leader also only affects lower PS ships, and would be completely pointless anyway ( action: perform a free action? real useful stuff there)

You could word it similar to LRS.

"You can use pilot abilities and upgrade cards (excluding secondary weapon upgrades) at Range 3 and beyond."

I don't quite understand why we don't see Kanan/Biggs more often, I have had some pretty nasty games. ABT double tap for aces, R4-D6 and lots of focus from Kanan for scouts. It is bloody difficult to get Biggs around Kanan in a usefull way, though.

Kanan/Biggs looks good on paper for durability but struggles in some ways that the Lothal rebel does not. Most obviously, Kanan hates stress as he really needs to be double focusing with Rec Spec to get any mileage out of his pilot ability. That in turn means he wants to stay off the reds and avoid getting bumped (which can be a challenge with the Ghost's dial). Lothal Rebel with Hera and FCS can pull reds all day long, does not really care if it gets blocked and still have a TL for those juicy primaries.

Most players tend to favour a cheap Ghost and ram it down the opponent's throat while something else (usually Dash or a Regen ship) hangs on for the end game. With Kanan, you are working to keep the Ghost alive as long as possible but the restrictions you face mean you may not actually get many more shots out of it.

I plan to playtest this Ghost in due course but for the moment the cheap and cheerful Lothal Rebel has been rather fun to play.

Not to mention the fact that Kanan (Crew) is really good on popular meta ships (especially the Outrider).

Here is a Biggs/Kanan list I quite fancy trying out.

47 Kanan Jarrus (38), FCS (2), Recon Specialist (3), Dorsal Turret (3), Tactical Jammer (1), Ghost Title (0)

27 Sabine (21), PTL (3), Kyle Katarn (3), Phantom Title (0)

26 Biggs (25), R4-D6 (1), Integrated Astromech (0)

This list has a lot going for it. Everyone is PS5 meaning I can move and shoot in whatever order works best. Biggs acts a bullet catcher with Kanan and Tactical Jammer hopefully helping him to last a little longer than normal.

Sabine is a slippery character, even at PS5 and the combination of a pre-move action, PTL and Kyle means I should be able to stack an impressive amount of action ecomony on her.

Kanan does his thing and carefully slow-rolls towards the enemy, trying to make the most of his hull points and shooting.

I do wonder whether I should run a cheaper attack shuttle and boost the Ghost though. Since the FAQ, TLT on the Ghost might be worth considering. Chewie would work well in the crew slot to make the Ghost even Tankier. Reinforced Deflectors don't seem to have made much of a ripple but in my experience, the Ghost takes 3+ damage hits often enough for this System to easily earn its points back. The problem is that it competes with FCS which really works well on a ship with such potent weaponry.

Hmmm. Decisions, decisions......