Hi All,

long time lurker, first time poster. I'd like to get some opinions/feedback on a situation I encountered during my last gaming session.

I've got a campaign I'm running that is somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 - 600 XP depending on the characters. One of my players just got his Force Rating to four dice. The campaign is fun, but I am running into an issue with the Influence talent and being able to roll force dice on what I will call "social skills" (e.g. the 15 XP Control talent). The challenge I am having is the ability to convert force pips into successes, making even a Formidable check pretty easy to succeed on. My goal is to let the players use the talents they've spent experience on, but I also want to try to avoid allowing Social checks to become "mind control" where a completely outlandish Charm check succeeds as a matter of course due to the Force Dice added to the roll.

There are of course narrative aspects that can hold repercussions, but I am mostly interested in the mechanical aspects. I know I can add setback dice and upgrades as necessary too. I want to tow the line between saying "No, you cannot charm the Imperial Admiral into letting you borrow his Star Destroyer" and letting the PCs use the talents & abilities they spent their hard earned XP on.

Also, just to clarify, I am not looking at the "Mind Trick" control talent for 10XP. That is a different mechanic, and I've not really had any issues with it. I am more concerned with how best to balance talents that let you add successes by spending Force Pips.

Thanks all.

Since it's still ultimately a social check in this case, even 100 successes won't make someone act against their own interests. It's kind of crappy, but sometimes you have to just say no. What you can do, though, is offer alternatives. No, you can't charm the Admiral into lending his Star Destroyer, but maybe you can convinced some of the security personnel that you have important business on the bridge and take it (just using your example as a springboard)

Don't forget that strong-willed people are resistant to the Force. Not sure how you might handle it in that instance. My first instinct is to reduce the number of Force dice the PC can roll, but generally you don't want to take away what they've already earned. You could add a few Setback dice to their roll, or upgrade it for free once or twice. (There's a social check version of Adversary, but I can't remember what it's called.)

Or, you can just say they don't get to roll Force dice. Put 'em up against a chatty droid or someone else strong in the Force who can directly counteract their attempts to sway her.

Don't forget that strong-willed people are resistant to the Force. Not sure how you might handle it in that instance. My first instinct is to reduce the number of Force dice the PC can roll, but generally you don't want to take away what they've already earned. You could add a few Setback dice to their roll, or upgrade it for free once or twice. (There's a social check version of Adversary, but I can't remember what it's called.)

Or, you can just say they don't get to roll Force dice. Put 'em up against a chatty droid or someone else strong in the Force who can directly counteract their attempts to sway her.

Force and Destiny suggests opposed checks when it makes sense. In particular against skilled opponents.

Don't forget that strong-willed people are resistant to the Force. Not sure how you might handle it in that instance. My first instinct is to reduce the number of Force dice the PC can roll, but generally you don't want to take away what they've already earned. You could add a few Setback dice to their roll, or upgrade it for free once or twice. (There's a social check version of Adversary, but I can't remember what it's called.)

Or, you can just say they don't get to roll Force dice. Put 'em up against a chatty droid or someone else strong in the Force who can directly counteract their attempts to sway her.

Force and Destiny suggests opposed checks when it makes sense. In particular against skilled opponents.

Seeing as it's a Social Check with the Force Dice thrown in, it's probably already an opposed check. I think Cap'n Raspberry's trouble is that he has a character with decent social skills, so these crazy checks are tough, but possible. Then you throw in his 4 Force dice, and that's at least 4 extra successes if he's willing to use black pips.

As an experiment, I tossed the bones 5 times, figuring 2 yellow and 2 green (which actually seems low for someone with FR 4), against 3 purple, 2 red (I haven't played at high-levels, but that seemed pretty tough). Without the Force, the roll succeeded once, with some Threat. With the Force, it succeeded, with Advantage, every single time.

My suggestion would be to upgrade the Difficulty at least once, and with enough threat or despair, the target feels his emotions being prodded, and flips right out. I suppose if the roll succeeds, the target could realize it after the fact, as you don't want to negate the successful roll, just complicate it.

Nobody's Fool

GranSolo beat me to it. The Imperial military politics almost necessitates plenty of ranks of Nobody's fool for senior officers.

The other thing to remember is the sidebar on Influence which says that black pips generate negative emotions, white pips generate positive emotions. Both pips can cause confusion. I would limit you to using white or black, but not both, on most of the rolls for Influence. No admiral would be confused into someone borrowing a star destroyer. Confusion would allow you on the bridge, at least in the short term. But to truly "borrow" it, I would only allow white pips to apply, as he would need to trust you implicitly. He is also well within his power to insist that his crew goes with the ship, albeit under your command. This would make it almost impossible to take the ship, but you could use it as transport, possibly intimidation. You would not get it to fight on the side of the rebels, though. Might be able to confuse a gun crew to shoot at the wrong target, though, which could cause a cluster.

The other thing to remember is the sidebar on Influence which says that black pips generate negative emotions, white pips generate positive emotions. Both pips can cause confusion. I would limit you to using white or black, but not both, on most of the rolls for Influence. No admiral would be confused into someone borrowing a star destroyer. Confusion would allow you on the bridge, at least in the short term. But to truly "borrow" it, I would only allow white pips to apply, as he would need to trust you implicitly. He is also well within his power to insist that his crew goes with the ship, albeit under your command. This would make it almost impossible to take the ship, but you could use it as transport, possibly intimidation. You would not get it to fight on the side of the rebels, though. Might be able to confuse a gun crew to shoot at the wrong target, though, which could cause a cluster.

Do you really "mix" your pips - from a technical standpoint? It seems to me you simply spend your destiny point and suffer strain to convert the pips into the color you need. So all white or all black (depending on the type of Force user you are).

The other thing to remember is the sidebar on Influence which says that black pips generate negative emotions, white pips generate positive emotions. Both pips can cause confusion. I would limit you to using white or black, but not both, on most of the rolls for Influence. No admiral would be confused into someone borrowing a star destroyer. Confusion would allow you on the bridge, at least in the short term. But to truly "borrow" it, I would only allow white pips to apply, as he would need to trust you implicitly. He is also well within his power to insist that his crew goes with the ship, albeit under your command. This would make it almost impossible to take the ship, but you could use it as transport, possibly intimidation. You would not get it to fight on the side of the rebels, though. Might be able to confuse a gun crew to shoot at the wrong target, though, which could cause a cluster.

Conflicted feels can certainly work for almost any social skill so long as the Influence-user describes how he's doing it. There is no reason to restrict the test to only using one type or result.

To use your example, using Deception or Leadership to convince an Imperial Admiral to let you borrow a Star Destroyer could benefit from white pips based on the influence he thinks he might gain if the plan goes well, and black pips based on the fear of not complying with a 'legitimate' order. There's no reason that both thoughts can't be working on his mind at once.

The other thing to remember is the sidebar on Influence which says that black pips generate negative emotions, white pips generate positive emotions. Both pips can cause confusion. I would limit you to using white or black, but not both, on most of the rolls for Influence. No admiral would be confused into someone borrowing a star destroyer. Confusion would allow you on the bridge, at least in the short term. But to truly "borrow" it, I would only allow white pips to apply, as he would need to trust you implicitly. He is also well within his power to insist that his crew goes with the ship, albeit under your command. This would make it almost impossible to take the ship, but you could use it as transport, possibly intimidation. You would not get it to fight on the side of the rebels, though. Might be able to confuse a gun crew to shoot at the wrong target, though, which could cause a cluster.

Do you really "mix" your pips - from a technical standpoint? It seems to me you simply spend your destiny point and suffer strain to convert the pips into the color you need. So all white or all black (depending on the type of Force user you are).

Influence has a special rule for this, so even if you pay to draw on a pip you still have to use it for a relevant feeling.

Since it's still ultimately a social check in this case, even 100 successes won't make someone act against their own interests. It's kind of crappy, but sometimes you have to just say no. What you can do, though, is offer alternatives. No, you can't charm the Admiral into lending his Star Destroyer, but maybe you can convinced some of the security personnel that you have important business on the bridge and take it (just using your example as a springboard)

That's not necessarily true. People IRL are convinced to do things that are not in their best interests all the time. Set an appropriate Difficulty--or assign Setbacks if it's an opposed test (most social rolls are)--and roll it out.

Conflict helps a lot when dealing with influence.

Conflict helps a lot when dealing with influence.

For the use in question, the (interaction skill) action won't generate any more Conflict by using Influence than it would without using Influence unless you're flipping Destiny to use DSP.

I think everyone is focusing on the wrong thing here. Fenrir has the right idea but I'm not sure he got the point across.

Since it's still ultimately a social check in this case, even 100 successes won't make someone act against their own interests. It's kind of crappy, but sometimes you have to just say no. What you can do, though, is offer alternatives. No, you can't charm the Admiral into lending his Star Destroyer, but maybe you can convinced some of the security personnel that you have important business on the bridge and take it (just using your example as a springboard)

The check is a social check, not a check to activate a force power. This isn't an aspect of Mind Trick, it's essentially using the force to just enhance a characters ability at a social interaction. I know that some people will say that's the same thing, but it's not. If you wouldn't be able to do it with a Skill of 5 and a Characteristic of 6, then it's not possible.

No, they wouldn't be able to talk an imperial out of a Star Destroyer unless there was a REALLY good reason for it. Like appearing to have all the correct credentials, being in uniform, acting the part of a superior officer (Moff maybe), and generally being able to pull off the greatest con in the world.

Using Influence in this way may let you hoodwink someone for a few moments, but if a used car salesman really puts one over on you, don't you think you'd realize what happened the moment you pull out of the lot and the tires fall off? With Mind Trick, perhaps not, otherwise YES, YOU'D NOTICE!

If you can't accomplish it with strait skill, then it's not possible with the Influence enhanced skill either. Not unless you're using Mind Trick.

Some things are simply impossible through the use of simple social rolls...

I don't care if you're the most suave, fast talking, slick person in the world, you come to my house and try to sleep with my wife and I'm gonna beat you to death... lol

The trouble is that the the power works with Coercian, Charm, Deception, Leadership or Negotiation, so if the player use the right approach it could give him the chance to suceed.

Like coercian: "Give me your ISD or you will die!" [while having a weapon in your hand] {Conflict worthy}

Or Deception: "Sir there was a message from Headquarter. we have to jump to this coordinates" [while wearing a com-officers uniform]

Still there are moments where those approaches also will be handled as impossible.

in the first case: The Impereal Captain is a zealot who will rather die than handover the ship. Or he just witnessed the wrath of Lord Vader on his pre-succsessor... that's how he was promoted... believe me that guy won't hand over the ship.

in the second case: Nice try but since the true com-officer is right next to the captain it doesn't work...

Also always remember even a succsess in a check doesn't have to mean a succsess for what the player wanted.

e.g.

Trying to get the ship by coercian: Succsess! - The captains is trembling in fear and you see his pants getting wet, he'll get two black dice on all his actions while you are in the room. But Since he is a loyal Impereal officer he screams: "GUARDS! KILL THOSE BLOODY BASTARD!" while he is trying to find cover for himself. [please roll initative]

or

Trying via deception: Succses - He believe you that you are one of his men! and he believes that the message with coordinates is from headquarters,

BUT: "Bloody hell, I smell the hand of my old rival Cpt. Torkin, he sure wants to drive me away from the action to gain all the fame for himself... well we will go for a different approach then... Navigator plot a course that will bring us to the other side of the planet so he wouldn't notice us."

or via charm (while beeing a woman):Succses ! He look at you with a bright smile in his eyes: "My dearest Lady Playerone, I really would love to follow your bidding, but alas, I have to refuse... I have total order of not leave this orbit until the remnants of those rebels are found and took down. And as much as I like you and your soothing voice... I like it more to be alive... you see me presuccsessor failded Lord Vader once... it ended fataly for him... but how about you joining me in my room on a glass of felucian wine?"

(while beeing a man): "You really look like a compenent person and I like your style, so I won't let you beeing executet for making this assumption, to leave my ship and his crew in your hands... so let's never talk about this again. I wouldn't be happy to give you towards the emperors inquisitors... You may leave now."

And so on, each was a success but the outcome wasn't the wanted.

Also remember if they want to do an Impossible check they have to spend a DP for the attemp alone, and they aren't able to use another (so no converting here!)

Actually using Influence to con an Imperial Star Destroyer out of the hands of its Captain is very much conflict worthy no matter how you go about it.

Actually using Influence to con an Imperial Star Destroyer out of the hands of its Captain is very much conflict worthy no matter how you go about it.

How do you figure? If they're trying to commendeer it for the rebels I wouldn't think any conflict would be involved. If they just "want a Star Destroyer" or are planning to use to indiscriminately kill then yes.

Actually using Influence to con an Imperial Star Destroyer out of the hands of its Captain is very much conflict worthy no matter how you go about it.

I entirely disagree. There's no conflict for using Move to "steal" a blaster from a thug that's threatening innocents. If a SD is in orbit to, say, lock down a city's spaceport, blasting any ships that are trying to leave the planet (even if it hasn't actually shot any down yet), I wouldn't give conflict for pulling off a miraculous dupe that "disarms" the captain of the ship. Things like holding a blaster to his face? Yeah, some conflict. Distraction, misdirection, and shenanigans while the techs and slicers hack the systems, making all of your BS more believable? Hey, if you can pull it off and get that guy to jump from the system (Ha! Good luck!), well, you just eliminated a threat and saved innocents without killng, injuring, or even threatening anyone.

The other thing to remember is the sidebar on Influence which says that black pips generate negative emotions, white pips generate positive emotions.

Do you really "mix" your pips - from a technical standpoint? It seems to me you simply spend your destiny point and suffer strain to convert the pips into the color you need. So all white or all black (depending on the type of Force user you are).

Sorry, I know it's a bit off-topic to address this but it's an important mechanic for a lot of powers. By my understanding, no pips are ever "converted" and are always "mixed". You use colored pips to generate Force Points. Force Points are a colorless resource, as denoted by their symbol (the circle that is half white, half black), and they are the fuel for Force Powers. However, it does matter where a Force Point "comes from", as evidenced by the text in many Force powers "if any pips were used to generate Force Points".

So, when you flip a Destiny Point and suffer strain to use black pips, you're generating Force Points from them. You use those FPs just like white-generated FPs, but those points feed into any effect that says "if you used Dark Side points to generate any Force Points spend on this check" - that means the wounds caused by Bind, the negative emotions (that can be caused by the Mind Trick aspect) of Influence, and the Willpower degradation of Battle Meditation. You don't have a choice in the matter because you used the Dark Side.

Remember, the rules for being a Light Side Force User say something to the effect of "you can only generate FP from light side points, unless you flip a DP and take strain to use dark side points to generate FP" not "all of your FPs come from light side points, and you have to pay resources to convert the dark side to light side points".

Annnyyyyyyyyway, back on topic? Yeah, I'd say that the Mind Trick option is the only power that really lets you make someone believe truly outlandish things. The upgrade that allows you to use FD to make your social checks better only involves subtle influence to make you seem more scary or nice or believable, but I'd argue that can't push people beyond what a regular check could accomplish. Really, then, it's about how you'd set the check difficulty. If you say it's impossible, then no amount of Force Die will help you succeed; no matter how charming you are or how accomplished a liar you may be, you simply can't succeed without some extenuating circumstances like disguises and such.