Hi Community,

So I want to really enjoy this RPG...and I think I do - but my players are very driven by the power progression of their characters.

It seems to me (vs traditional fantasy RPGs) that when a character levels up in Star Wars - not much happens - you might get an extra xp point to spend, but there isn't much difference between a lvl 3 character and a lvl 8.

I can supplement this with gear upgrades, but as a character, he doesn't get more abilities, ability score increases, or significant force power upgrades.

Am I missing something?

Please help me understand how I can make character progression something appealing to my players!

You aren't missing anything, it's by design. It's one of the top 5 reasons I like this game! If your players are used to D&D (4th and earlier) they'll be expecting to eventually become immune to threats like stormtroopers, but that will never happen in this game. The main side effect of this flat power curve is that the game plays much more like the movies. You have to stay on the move, and combat shouldn't last more than a couple rounds before somebody breaks and runs...maybe setting up a chase and then another 2-3 round conflict as the players try to achieve their goal. You can rarely just have a "war of attrition", grinding down the opposition's hit points.

(As an aside, even D&D5, to its credit, has ratcheted the power curve back quite a bit...even a first level character can hit a dragon, for instance, and the reverse is true if you hit 20th level. You can't sleep through a kobold attack anymore.)

I'd suggest clarifying that with the players, noting that most of the talents are subtle improvements, and increased skill ranks often don't improve the odds of success so much as they radically increase the amount of advantages and triumphs the players can spend. Those are narrative gold, and they definitely add up over time, so...patience Padawans!

For combat encounters, I'd strongly suggest keeping things moving. Give the players clear goals, and make sure they know the opposition can't be "destroyed" so much as avoided or baffled. Use a lot of chases, and throw all kinds of checks into those chases, not just Athletics. Maybe there's a street urchin who knows where to hide, Charm or Negotiation can work as well as Athletics in those situations. Maybe there's a particularly scary chasm crossing that requires a Fear check, or an easy but long climb that tests Resilience.

If they designed their characters with D&D in mind, they might have ended up with some monolithic characters. But in this game, there's nothing more pathetic than a Wookiee with 5 Brawn and 2 Willpower...at the first sign of trouble he's going to run! So encourage breadth of ability over depth...obviously each character will have one or two preferred roles, but as long as you give them a wide variety of challenges, there aren't any "dump stats" or useless skills, no matter what career they picked.

It's also perfectly okay to admit that this system might not be a fit for your group if heavy progression is something that everyone wants, and if Star Wars is what you want there's always Saga edition. Although, I will say that we just finished a roughly 250 XP game and then started over with starting characters and I can definitely tell there was a difference. It's a slow burn, but the advancement is certainly there. If one of your characters is a mechanic of some flavor, weapon and armor mods can get silly if you can manage a second or third one on the same attachment.

... but as a character, he doesn't get more abilities, ability score increases, or significant force power upgrades.

Am I missing something?

Please help me understand how I can make character progression something appealing to my players!

I understand what you/your players are saying: "This game isn't D&D >:("

And they're right. You don't start out as a fool wrestling kobolds and progress to literal godhood. This isn't that kind of game. And people who like this game are thankful for that. Maybe this isn't the right game for your table.

However, I don't understand what you're saying about not getting more abilities, attribute increases, or force powers. The progression is more flat than your standard d20 Minty Hall grinds, but the difference between a new PC in FFG SW and a PC with moderate amounts of experience (150?) is substantial.

If all your players are doing is investing in Skills, than yea, it's gonna feel like nothing is happening. Skills are often largely a trap in this game. You want to advance the important ones to a certain amount, but your real game-changing abilities come from Talents and advanced Force Powers and synergizing all of this with your Characteristics and Species and the 2 or 3 Specializations you envision for your PC.

Ultimately, if they can't stand not having the scalar ladder to climb that a d20 game provides, then just give them more XP per session, eliminate the changing-Specialization XP costs, and allow them to raise Characteristics/Attributes for 10+New Ratingx10 XP, or something, and enjoy completely missing the point of playing different systems.

Good luck.

If all your players are doing is investing in Skills, than yea, it's gonna feel like nothing is happening. Skills are often largely a trap in this game.

Can't say I really agree with this. There is a sweet spot, to be sure, in my games so far that's generally around the 4 dice mark (YYGG, or YYYG). Buffs from boosts (equipment or situational) then become worth more than the 25XP it takes to get that 5th die. But having that 4th die is very noticeable.

Ultimately, if they can't stand not having the scalar ladder to climb that a d20 game provides, then just give them more XP per session, eliminate the changing-Specialization XP costs, and allow them to raise Characteristics/Attributes for 10+New Ratingx10 XP, or something, and enjoy completely missing the point of playing different systems.

This is a good suggestion, I do find the FFG suggested XP allocations rather lean. I also granted a free second spec at the start.

I can supplement this with gear upgrades, but as a character, he doesn't get more abilities, ability score increases, or significant force power upgrades.

I'm confused on why your players are unhappy with character progression. In just three weeks of gaming, assuming the suggested 20 experience a session, that's 60 points to play with. That's either a mad dash down the talent tree to the third tier (which, depending on the tree, can be a significant gain), all the tier one and two talents (also, some pretty good stuff in there depending on the tree. They'll at the very least have Black-Away talents in their profession) or depending on how they spend their points, a whole boatload of skills with two yellow dice.

That's a pretty beefy character.

If all your players are doing is investing in Skills, than yea, it's gonna feel like nothing is happening. Skills are often largely a trap in this game.

Can't say I really agree with this. There is a sweet spot, to be sure, in my games so far that's generally around the 4 dice mark (YYGG, or YYYG). Buffs from boosts (equipment or situational) then become worth more than the 25XP it takes to get that 5th die. But having that 4th die is very noticeable.

I'm gonna do this by wisely choosing my Species, and spending the bulk of my initial XP (70-100, if I have that much) on Characteristics. Then I'm gonna choose a Career and Specialization where I can grab at least 1 rank in those Primary and 2ndry Skills. Giving me YGGG in my primary Skill(s) to start, and YGG in 2ndry - with a few exceptions I will probably only ever buy 1 more Skill rank for those skill sets. I will buy Skills for something that is outside of my "Main Characteristics" but that is still really handy to have. Like a Social Infiltrator PC oriented around Cunning and Intellect, I will buy Skills as I go for Ranged (L) and Stealth, but only slowly, and only up to probably 3 ranks.

Now absolutely there are other ways to progress PCs, and even more optimal ways for some builds, but across three campaigns ranging from 100 - 250 XP gained in each (so, maybe 500 XP total), I have spent easily less than 100 XP on Skills and probably closer to 50 than 100, and its always worked out quite well, as far as apparent power level goes compared to players who have focused heavily on Skills (which was most everyone but me in our group).

I highly agree with emsquared.... when you build a strong core character with high attributes (which is basically this games best xp use in an optimization sense you want a 4/3 or a 3/3/3/3 in your main attributes with everything else 2s. 1's always hurt ...alot) you get a strong starting character with meteoric progression potential with the right talents but not caring as much on skills. I have a +300 above starting xp gank and I think I've only put skill points in 1 skill that didn't cost the min for untrained class skills. The other 250+ has been in talents and new specializations.

Also whoever said you have to always worry about stormtroopers.... lolz..... I have 11 soak with cortosis armor and 5 ranged def.....if you build for combat in this game you get reduculous very very quickly.

No intent to dis your build, but if you look at Star Wars from the characters they present, who really wears armor, of ANY kind? Vader (has to), Boba Fett, and Stormtroopers. There might be a few others, splashed in, here, or there, but few, and far between, and Cortosis is silly rare, much of the time. As i have no idea what lengths your character went to to acquire this suit, I won't say much more, but you are using a very rare, specialized example, to be so durable, and one other GMs might certainly not make available to their Luke Skywalkers, Han Solos, or whomever else. Not to say it's not cool; ancient Sith often did the same, with their alchemical glass suits, and I love Imperial Knights, with their phrik-laced combat armor, but most of Star Wars is armor-light, and without it, or always-available, convenient cover (not a big thing to be found in hallways, sometimes), that group of Stormtroopers might still be threatening. Even if they aren't, to you, your group is only as durable as it's weakest member, or the no business being there NPC they need to escort/protect/save.

As an aside, where DID you find a suit of cortosis-laced __________ armor? Actually pleasantly curious.

I highly agree with emsquared.... when you build a strong core character with high attributes (which is basically this games best xp use in an optimization sense you want a 4/3 or a 3/3/3/3 in your main attributes with everything else 2s. 1's always hurt ...alot) you get a strong starting character with meteoric progression potential with the right talents but not caring as much on skills. I have a +300 above starting xp gank and I think I've only put skill points in 1 skill that didn't cost the min for untrained class skills. The other 250+ has been in talents and new specializations.

Also whoever said you have to always worry about stormtroopers.... lolz..... I have 11 soak with cortosis armor and 5 ranged def.....if you build for combat in this game you get reduculous very very quickly.

Hm what gives you 5 defense? You have some item that has +5 defense? Because you can't build that up from separate sources. Atleast this is what the rules say.

Just curious.

You can with the rules as they are at the moment (which I believe are in flux atm but not errata'd yet) . To start wit you get 2 defense from armor(some armor can have 2) defensive quality on weapons theb adds to this (and this is the part in flux, as a dev has apparently stated armor defense and defensive qaulity dont stack, however RAW atm including errata does) so its possible to get defensive 2 easily, and finally superior reflexes adds an additional +1. Its possible to get a higher defensive quality than 2 by stacking 3 or more ranks of defensive training (not sure how many instances there are but I think at least 3). So RAW including errata you can get 6 melee defense, and its possible to do the same with ranged def.

The 5 is ranged def. 3 Rdef from armor base (template armor crafted) then I used jury rigged to add +1 Rdef to the armor then +1 def from improved armor master = 5 total. Single source

When wearing armor with a soak value of 2 or higher, increase defense by 1.

No intent to dis your build, but if you look at Star Wars from the characters they present, who really wears armor, of ANY kind? Vader (has to), Boba Fett, and Stormtroopers.

Vader's isn't really armour as much as it's life-support and intimidation.

Fett wears a cloth suit with some armour plating; that's 'Armour Clothing' tops.

Stormtrooper armour doesn't stop fists or blasters in the movies. It seems like an environmental protection and communications suite, plus intimidation factor again.

I don't count Soak bonuses for any armour, and it feels more Star Wars-y. It helps prevent Soak monsters and keeps everyone that much more honest.

So we don't have many PCs wearing armour. Heck, some of them don't wear many clothes

I'm just going to say it outright: I HATE "level" based RPG's. To me, they come across as, "I go about my business for a while, then wake up one morning and *poof*, I'm better at everything !" I much prefer systems like this one where you improve a little at a time, on just a few things at a time. It seems much more natural (for want of a better term). Sure, it can seem slow if someone is used to power grinding a character, but it is what it is.

As for me, I appreciate when the game gives out XP a little more often, like this, and I can spend it, as I go. It might not be much a shot, but some things don't TAKE much, to get, and there's no "waiting to level up", even if that does improve numerous things at once. Also, while I do love me some d20, most days, I do like the feeling that I can "take a class", if you will, but still improve a wider array of my options; not every Wizard MUST just improve their Intelligence, gain more spells, and stay useless in personal combat, with a jaw made out of the finest, thinnest glass. 5e D&D seems to be better about it, too, so they are also getting better, but I sometimes like the free-form building, rather than the on-rails classes can trap you in.

Having said that, I do sometimes wish this system was more like Dark Heresy 2, Only War, and Black Crusade, from FFG's 40K lines. They certainly have their problems, too, and some are hilarious, considering the amount of options FFG has had, by this point, to address some that have been typoed since Dark Heresy 1, but there's no following trees there, and I sort of appreciate that, too. Some of the options in this can ONLY be taken by following lines you didn't want to, and grabbing some talents you weren't looking for, artificially inflating the cost of some of those already spendy, bottom-row, or weirdly connected middle row talents. I'm not saying it's bad, and it can be good to not just be able to grab a few talents, right away, like Force Rating, but still.

I still really do like d20, of course; good, or bad, it's what I grew into a gamer with, for the most part (D&D 3.x, Pathfinder, Wheel of Time RPG, various Star Wars, and on), with only White Wolf, before they turned to crap, breaking it up, with their d10 pools system (V:tM, M:tA, Exalted, etc.), but I do like how this system purports to work; I just haven't gotten my friends to guinea pig for me, and I actually tend to find the narrative system, and it's occasional "sprinkle in boost and setback as you will, and sometimes inconsistent difficulties" aspects. I accept it could be mostly my own limited understanding of it, more than the game's fault, but oh well.

I must coment on the "dont ever have a 1" comment earlier. This can be overcome with Skill ranks, I absolutely love having a character with a 4,3,2,2,2,1 spread, it gives me something to work with when narrating why my character just stuffed up. its even better if there is a skill that needs that characteristic and i can get 3 or 4 ranks of it, making for a very decent dice pool even though i'm supposed to be terrible at it. Obviously its not going to be your primary skills, but a 1 Intellect Gunner who can fix anything with 4 ranks of Mechanics, a 1 Brawn Face who has a mean Left Hook with 4 Brawl (and Enhance!).

I think its important to look for the Talents in a tree before spending xp to look for the 'thematic' ones that will actually change your character. Often they are buried deep but not always, then make a b-line straight for them.

Please help me understand how I can make character progression something appealing to my players!

To be frank, you can't make character progression appealing to your players. This is more a style of gaming issue than a flaw with the character progression system. If you like leveling up then this system is not for you. This is a classless system (similar to Legend of the Five Rings and World of Darkness) and as such characters tend to grow more powerful but there isn't a defining moment like there is in level based games. You get xp and you're always updating and evolving the character. The system is more dynamic, while class based systems are more static.

This isn't a bad thing. But it is a style choice. Some people love level based games and they won't enjoy a game like FFG's Star Wars. There's no crime in that. And there is no way to make your players enjoy this system. Ask them to give it a try and if they enjoy it continue. If not move on.

Lucky for your players there are versions of Star Wars that are level based. Track down d20 Star Wars or Saga Edition Star Wars (both produced by WotC). If you're into D&D and levels that is the system for you. There is no crime in not liking this Star Wars. We live in a time where there is a form of Star Wars rules that suits many different styles of play. Find one that works for you and enjoy. That may not be this game, but there's no harm in that.

Kael just hit the nail on the head.

I want to expand on another earlier comment too; If your games are shorter campaigns then you probably should increase XP drop, 10 per hour of game play would be a good place to start. Although a 10 session 50xp per session game would be a hell of a lot of fun with very rapid growth. Its so easy to make interesting characters with 2 or more specs that its almost criminal to only use this system with characters who only ever reach 200 earned xp, especialy in FaD with the extra Force Power Xp sink.

And, if things continue on well, and you start feeling it went too fast, or your game is continuing on longer than you anticipated, you can slowly ratchet the XP down, and it will feel more like the leveling up games they're used to; it'll also feel a bit more like the "you don't get the same XP for doing the same thing, over and over again" I brought up, earlier. It can be a really nice system, by the looks of it, and allow you to get some more of the things you want sooner. If you've played d20, you know that feeling of the one ability, the one spell, or what have you, that you need to wait till higher levels to reach. You want a prestige class, in Saga edition? You pretty much HAVE to reach Level 7, and grab the PrC at Level 8, with about two exceptions, and sometimes longer, if it says BAB 7+, instead of Character Level 7+, or something. You want to be a Jedi Master? You might have to wait till 13th level; I've played lots of games, many not even starting at level 1 (HATE those, for this very reason), that never went far enough to allow us to get to these levels. With a slight exception of Force potential, and even that is only partially the case, this game will let you pick these things up pretty early, at least to a degree, and that can be good. Sorry, babbled again.

When college starts this fall, where I live, I really hope to get my gaming friends there to want to play this game, if not D&D 5e, or Naruto d20; shooting for this, as it's Star Wars! We'll have to see, but it seems like it could really be a fun system, and allow for some very flexible options as to building what you want to play.

No intent to dis your build, but if you look at Star Wars from the characters they present, who really wears armor, of ANY kind? Vader (has to), Boba Fett, and Stormtroopers. There might be a few others, splashed in, here, or there, but few, and far between, and Cortosis is silly rare, much of the time. As i have no idea what lengths your character went to to acquire this suit, I won't say much more, but you are using a very rare, specialized example, to be so durable, and one other GMs might certainly not make available to their Luke Skywalkers, Han Solos, or whomever else. Not to say it's not cool; ancient Sith often did the same, with their alchemical glass suits, and I love Imperial Knights, with their phrik-laced combat armor, but most of Star Wars is armor-light, and without it, or always-available, convenient cover (not a big thing to be found in hallways, sometimes), that group of Stormtroopers might still be threatening. Even if they aren't, to you, your group is only as durable as it's weakest member, or the no business being there NPC they need to escort/protect/save.

As an aside, where DID you find a suit of cortosis-laced __________ armor? Actually pleasantly curious.

Stole a shipment of cortosis. Spent ~30k credits and 6 weeks crafting 2 test sets (aka learning shematics and garnering bonus dice) them crafted it myself

That being said my old armor our quartermaster found a cortosis mod and bought it with my credits. It's only 10k credits and rarity is a joke per raw....sadly.

We have killed 2 Inquisitors that had cortosis armor as well but no one liked their armor so it was scrapped for parts.

Also for a COMBAT heavy system when you know your going into combat...only idiots don't don armor. In the original movies no one has armor and npcs all die in 1 shot with or without armor. In the clone wars stuff people all wear armor including jedi...and surprise they live theough getting shot....sometimes

Our group doesn't always have our armor on. But we all do when we head off to something combat oriented.

Also as a gank bounty hunter when 1/2 my talents are about armor....I'm gonna wear armor.

Cortosis should be very rare, so I would say your GM is on the generous side here.

Maybe...30+sessions into a combat heavy game where we now have pretty vast resources. Cortosis is rarity 8, 10k credits, unrestricted. Thats not that difficult to find comparatively to other things. We have 2 players with crafted cortosis armor we spent several sessions aquiring and building and 2 Other sets of cortosis we have found and set in the equipment pile.

Lightsabers are 10 and restricted. We've only aquired 1. Seems about right to me

GM has shot me with a rocked launcher, flechhete launcher, vehicle weapons (we use x silhouette not x10 for damage), thermal detonators, lightsabers, Etc. Just means stormtroopers with blaster rifles don't mean much.

Maybe, however thats still a lot of ore, but yeah after that many sessions if cortosis armor was your goal I woukd expect to give you that as a GM. To me though cortosis armor is a one off pinnacle reward thats along the lines of a lightsaber itself (the armor itself that can take cortosis is 5k (although riot armor can also have it) and the attachment is 10k making it nearly double a lightsaber at least when it comes to credits.

Also as a GM pretty much every roll should have some set back in them. It makes the setback removing talents usefule and rarely are situations optimal.