So my take on the interaction between hyperspace assault and a flotilla is that it can't be used in hyperspace assault unless we get an FAQ. Any thoughts ?

Flotillas are small ships so they can Hyperspace Assault

The flotilla tip card does not state that they are a new ship type and they use a small ship base which by the rules defines it as a small ship.

So my take on the interaction between hyperspace assault and a flotilla is that it can't be used in hyperspace assault unless we get an FAQ. Any thoughts ?

Yep. You Think Wrong!

As was pointed out, there is only one, single exception to the Flotillas being Ships, and that is overlap.

Since Hyperspace Assault is not Overlap, they must be allowed, as they are indeed, a Ship.

And they are a small ship, as defined by their Base size, as Ships are defined by their Base Size...

(This does mean in later expansions we could theoretically see Medium-or-large size Flotillas, as well... As there is nothing stating that they are always Small ships, only that they are Ships , that use the Ships rule, and are thusly defined by their base size).

But are they small ships ? The info we have is that they are a new type of ship that follow the same rules as other ships with one exception ( the ramming thing)

The core rules "state each ship has a class size, small medium or large, small ships use the 41mm x71mm base" ect. This is not a must rule, in that small ships have a 41mm x 71mm base, but it does not stop a new type of ship sharing that base size and not being a small ship.

To be sure a flotilla was a specific size of ship the rule should be a "must rule"as in "all models with a ship base size of 41mm x 71mm must be classed as small ships"

I know it may seem pedantic but to say the wave 3 flotillas are small ships with a rule variation because they use a 41mm x 71mm base is making at assumption not quite supported by RAW.

But if we were playing a game I would go with your interpretation as I would say that's what they meant in the spirit of the rules over a slight technicality in Raw interpretation.

You are assuming rules where there are none written.

We have all of the written Rules:

If they had a new base size, then the Flotilla rules would state they have a new base size. Or there would simply be a Rules Addenum that STATES there is a new Base Size... That seems like some pretty critical information that would have to be shared on a Document of some kind - and they've already got a Rules card in there, that doesn't mention it....

What I am saying, is the Flotilla rule can apply to any size ship .

But the Flotilla rules say, "THIS IS A SHIP, with the Following, One, Single Exception."

So you must use the Rules for ships as presented...

Because, I mean... If you're willing to ignore the rule that says that a Ship conforms to the base size, what other rules are you willing to ignore?

The core rules "state each ship has a class size, small medium or large, small ships use the 41mm x71mm base" ect. This is not a must rule, in that small ships have a 41mm x 71mm base, but it does not stop a new type of ship sharing that base size and not being a small ship.

You state it is not a 'must' rule, but neither is it optional .

"Flotillas are not ships, but they use the ship rules." would be the exception you're after.

But said rule does not exist .

The core rules "state each ship has a class size, small medium or large, small ships use the 41mm x71mm base" ect. This is not a must rule, in that small ships have a 41mm x 71mm base, but it does not stop a new type of ship sharing that base size and not being a small ship.

As I said I generally agree, my issue is that although the rules around clase and base sizes may not be optional as in small ships have size x etc, neither does it fully "exclude" a new ship "type" from sharing that base size and not being a small class ship. The language used in that particular rule is just not tight enough to fully lock this down when they decide to introduce a new "type" of ship.

After your argument I'd always go with allowing and interpreting as small base, but if someone disagreed because of weakness within the class rule I would accept that as well. Unless I was TO and I'd defintly follow your interpretation.

And they may indeed do that in the future - introduce a new type of Ship...

But they have not done that with Flotillas.

And they may indeed do that in the future - introduce a new type of Ship...

But they have not done that with Flotillas.

Although that's how they describe it in the article "an all new ship type" In fact they call it a new ship type twice, if it was not for this I would not hold a bit of doubt. Although it may just be flabby writing in the article.

I mean, what are you advocating here? Help me understand....

Because it seems that you are saying:

1) Something that uses the Ship Rules (with its one exception on Overlap);

and

2) Is on a Small Ship base, as defined by the small ship base rules (of which is is not excepted);

and

3) Has nothing that says it is not a Small ship (despite plenty of opportunity to do so);

is not a Small Ship?

Someone post a link to the flotilla reference card. End this.

Although that's how they describe it in the article "an all new ship type" In fact they call it a new ship type twice, if it was not for this I would not hold a bit of doubt. Although it may just be flabby writing in the article.

All Seriousness aside, the Article be Damned ... This is the Rules Sub-Forum, we concentrate on the Rules here, not the Spin

---

Flabby Writing Indeed!

I mean, the other side of that is, how have they defined "Ship Type". Because I don't think that's defined, either. How do we know they're referring to Ship Sizes when they mention Ship Type...

because the Gozanti is an all new ship type when your category is "ISD, VSD, Gladiator" thusfar... that would define it as an all new ship type as well!

Ship Type could be defined by its Role, as well, and as carriers of the only FLEET SUPPORT upgrades thusfar, that would also indeed include it as a possible definition of Ship Type!

This is why we, of the Rules Forum, have little respect for the Marketing writing of the Articles, and in fact, of anything barring the Rules texts as quoted... because its very easy to lose oneself in undefined variables and definitions

Someone post a link to the flotilla reference card. End this.

We've already referenced it, Gink - its known to the people involved. That will not save us now

They certainly COULD have included rules in the flotilla packs that said something along the lines of "flotillas are a new type of ship that use the same size base as small ships but are not considered small ships". In fact, I expected them to when they were first shown, but they didn't include such a rule. In the absence of a rule specifically stating that they are considered different than small ships we have to rely on the rules that do exist, which state a ship is small if it has this size of base.

So hyperspace assault works and Motti gives them an extra hull point. (But only one).

Flotillas are small base ships.

Ship Type

does not Equate

Ship Size

ergo

Ship Size rules apply

ergo

Flotillas are Small Ships, with all the Good, Bad, and Possibilities (Including Motti, Hyperspace Assault and others) that applies.

That's my argument in an absolute nutshell.

Ginkapo we are in the strange hinterland know as " does the base size define the ship class or can a new type of ship share a base size with an existing ship class and yet not be of that class and WTF does new "type" mean if anything......."

For me the rules describe what base a small ship has "a small ship has a base size of 41mm x 71mm" but does not defiantly exclude the use of that base size for another purpose "as in mounting a new ship type"( flotilla). So the 41mm x 71mm is not "a small ship base" it's "the base size a small ship is mounted on".

But after careful consideration I agree that ( all evidence taken into account) flotillas are not as described in the write up a "new type of ship" but are on balance small ships with a new rule added.

Therefore my learning from this is that FFG articles although nice to read do contain a level of bollocks.

From the FAQ.

Size Class, p.11

The size of a small ship should read “43mm x 71mm.” The sizeof a medium ship should read “63mm x 102mm.” The size of alarge ship should read “77.5mm x 129mm.”

Nooooo don't add that in I'm going to have to go back and edit all my entries..........

Here is the rules from the RRG. Remember to change the sizes with that from the FAQ.

Ginkapo we are in the strange hinterland know as " does the base size define the ship class or can a new type of ship share a base size with an existing ship class and yet not be of that class and WTF does new "type" mean if anything......."

A type of ship could have the same base size as one of the 3 original types yet be a completely different type, but the rules for that (theoretical) new type of ship would have to SPECIFICALLY say so.

Nobody has mentioned it, but FFG could have put flotillas on a different base if they didn't mean for them to be classed as a ship

Nobody has mentioned it, but FFG could have put flotillas on a different base if they didn't mean for them to be classed as a ship

I would add that changing the rules by exception to the regular rules: "This is a small ship but....." also creates a change that is easier to learn or teach.

You also want to the rules explanation to fit on a card or sheet in the box, so brevity counts.

I quite like games that are easy to learn but take a life time to master.

Nobody has mentioned it, but FFG could have put flotillas on a different base if they didn't mean for them to be classed as a ship

They could have, though there very well. Might be economical and/or logistical reasons that made doing so unfeasible.

Oh, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that they aren't ships, the discussion is about whether they are "small" ships, or if "flotilla" is a separate classification than "small".

Let me just add that the CURRENT flotillas ate small base ships. The wording on the card doesn't preclude other sizes. Not sure that's happening, but it's possible.