This sort of stuff happens, no one is Vassel perfect.

In fact, it actually makes me really anxious about having any of my matches recorded for fear of having an entire thread dedicated to how someone uses their templates/rolls their dice/what tokens they use to represent what.

I am messy dice roller and I often nudge my ships slightly, especially in a fur ball or when I am having to reach all the way across the table, the fact that there are some people that would actually think I am doing that on purpose to gain an advantage is a little bit ridiculous.

Talk about sucking the fun out of something.

You make a very valid point but it just seems (with the joys of modern technology) the he knowingly or unknowing got a minor advantage from an imperfect manoeuvre..... I often bump ships and asteroids but that's because I'm a giant bumble foot..... This wont be the first lynch mob here that hunts down an accused cheat.

<insert popcorn icon>

I dread the time I end up on stream for exactly this reason.

"CHEATING!!!1one"

No, just clumsy AF.

part of the reason I say i don't want my games recorded ..... people dont like that and get suspicious straight off the bat. but it is getting kind of stupid that at a normal tournament every 3rd game is being recorded (probably in attempts just to catch a cheat).

Wow, you must yourself be very suspicious person, if you think that recording games are for catching cheaters. The only reason games are being recorded/streamed is that players can watch/rewatch games that they otherwise wouldn't be able to. It's for the good of the community, as you may meet some foreign player at a premium event, whom you recognize from a stream. Or you might find it exciting to watch players from your local community.

It looks clearly cheating to me.

Seems like an incredible risky and stupid way to cheat though. With any knowledge of the rule of 11 the palp aces player could have known that the jumpmaster player was cheating. With these starting positions, they are about 18 bases apart. The ships moved 2x6 +4 = 16 bases. Which leaves less then 2,5 bases between the ships, so clearly R1.

I agree. I did the same measurements at home and either there's something really odd about the length of his templates or he knowingly moves his ships and templates a total of 2 cm. It seems too calculated to be sloppiness.

. But I have as shaky of hands as anybody, and little scoots either closer, or further happen all the time because I have trouble keeping my hands steady.

That wasn't the product of shaky hands. My hands sometimes shake too (I really should drink less soda), and it never looks like what that guy did. Steady, smoothly, quickly sliding his ships and templates straight back as he moved them. No wobble to speak of. And then, yeah, it didn't happen with the third ship.

There is no slippery slope where we correctly identify this as cheating and then someone burns down your house because you have shaky hands. Really.

But you can still perform maneuvers incorrectly steadily and smoothly simply by just being nervous or, perhaps more likely, by being inattentive.

I feel like there would need to be a lot more evidence for something like this. If we have another video or two of him playing and we see similar illegal movements of the ships at closely contested ranges, the call would be easier to make.

Here's a little more evidence from the final:

At around 3:32 he moves his two first ships really fast, maybe nudging the first one, but visibly nudging the second twice and the template moves as well. Accidently or not, that second ship gets a better arc from that nudge. Then he proceeds to move his third ship perfectly, carefully making sure the knobs fits around the template. The manner of how he holds the two front ships, compared to the third is also different.

I didn't realise this guy made it to the final.. so he came second?!

Wow. I'm surprised nobody mentioned the 12:00 minute mark in the first video. He reveals a bank, but when he realizes the ships will overlap, he just slides it forward like a straight instead of banking it slightly. To me, that's not cheating, that's just ignorance* of the rules. It looks like the opponent tries to argue with him but just gives up. The player then proceeds to move his third ship 1-straight. It looks like he was afraid that turning his second ship would block the third. I don't know about you all, but this instance is way more infuriating than nudging the templates.

*EDIT: Or it is cheating and it is a blatant disregard for the rules. That overlap really gets on my nerves, though, intentional cheating or not.

Wow. I'm surprised nobody mentioned the 12:00 minute mark in the first video. He reveals a bank, but when he realizes the ships will overlap, he just slides it forward like a straight instead of banking it slightly. To me, that's not cheating, that's just ignorance of the rules. It looks like the opponent tries to argue with him but just gives up. The player then proceeds to move his third ship 1-straight. It looks like he was afraid that turning his second ship would block the third. I don't know about you all, but this instance is way more infuriating than nudging the templates.

I agree, that was way more infuriating to watch.

Well, he made it to the finals, so must have been at least partially good at what he was doing - and U-boats ...!

I know why one of the guys is on there (Warhammer 40k conquest) but what about the others?

One guy on the black list got caught on video cheating in an ffg card game tournament, and another (the one I mentioned above) posted a video of his own game in a regional tournament where you can see him changing his dial while the other player isn't looking.... All water under the bridge now though

wait so this guy is a known cheater from games before? that's even worse.

This type of thing REALLY annoys me.

I am a dentist. Millimeters matter a great deal to me in my work.

I'm not a dentist. Millimeters matter bugger all to me in my work...

So am I not allowed to play the game or what? Is this a game only for dentists, precision-engineers, bomb disposal experts, etc.?

Having watched the video a few times at all different speeds, it could be that he's cheating, I dunno, but I dread the day I get recorded if people are going to start a witch-hunt over every bump and nudge that takes place.

This type of thing REALLY annoys me.

I am a dentist. Millimeters matter a great deal to me in my work.

I'm not a dentist. Millimeters matter bugger all to me in my work...

So am I not allowed to play the game or what? Is this a game only for dentists, precision-engineers, bomb disposal experts, etc.?

Having watched the video a few times at all different speeds, it could be that he's cheating, I dunno, but I dread the day I get recorded if people are going to start a witch-hunt over every bump and nudge that takes place.

If you don't think there was cheating, check at about 11:50 and watch the next 30 seconds.

First they came for the cheaters and I said nothing. And then nothing else ever happened, because why would it?

This type of thing REALLY annoys me.

I am a dentist. Millimeters matter a great deal to me in my work.

I'm not a dentist. Millimeters matter bugger all to me in my work...

So am I not allowed to play the game or what? Is this a game only for dentists, precision-engineers, bomb disposal experts, etc.?

Having watched the video a few times at all different speeds, it could be that he's cheating, I dunno, but I dread the day I get recorded if people are going to start a witch-hunt over every bump and nudge that takes place.

If you don't think there was cheating, check at about 11:50 and watch the next 30 seconds.

Yeah I've done that, and I agree he shouldn't have sent that jumpmaster straight forward where it was clearly a bank... I also fail to see what advantage that gained him.

Furthermore, why on earth did his opponent allow him to do that? Honestly I've no idea - I wouldn't have allowed it, but you can't put his actions at 12 minutes up and say that's absolute proof he was cheating at 3 minutes.

Internet forum witch-hunts piss me off.

Cheating at Jakku?

I guess those four fowards were worth...one half portion

This type of thing REALLY annoys me.

I am a dentist. Millimeters matter a great deal to me in my work.

I'm not a dentist. Millimeters matter bugger all to me in my work...

So am I not allowed to play the game or what? Is this a game only for dentists, precision-engineers, bomb disposal experts, etc.?

Having watched the video a few times at all different speeds, it could be that he's cheating, I dunno, but I dread the day I get recorded if people are going to start a witch-hunt over every bump and nudge that takes place.

If you don't think there was cheating, check at about 11:50 and watch the next 30 seconds.

Yeah I've done that, and I agree he shouldn't have sent that jumpmaster straight forward where it was clearly a bank... I also fail to see what advantage that gained him.

Furthermore, why on earth did his opponent allow him to do that? Honestly I've no idea - I wouldn't have allowed it, but you can't put his actions at 12 minutes up and say that's absolute proof he was cheating at 3 minutes.

Internet forum witch-hunts piss me off.

Well, I certainly never said that, but I'm also not about to say it's cool to break whatever rules you want. You say it may not have given him any advantage, but is that the point? Are we allowed to do whatever shortcuts we want as long as it doesn't matter?

I'm not asking for this guy's head on a stake, but I'm also entitled to be a little upset when I see such blatant disregard for common rules.

Well, I certainly never said that, but I'm also not about to say it's cool to break whatever rules you want. You say it may not have given him any advantage, but is that the point? Are we allowed to do whatever shortcuts we want as long as it doesn't matter?

I'm not asking for this guy's head on a stake, but I'm also entitled to be a little upset when I see such blatant disregard for common rules.

I 100% agree that he should never have done that ridiculous nonsense around the 12 minute bump - once again; had I been his opponent I'd never have stood for that. I'm not saying we can just go around doing whatever the hell we want. That said - his opponent clearly didn't do enough to fight his corner on that, if indeed he did so at all (I don't speak French, any translators who want to let me know what was said in that period please do so - but his opponent didn't seem overly bothered by it).

What can one do in that situation? Insist that all tournament games everywhere have a referee each to ensure the rules of the game are upheld to the letter?

Internet forum witch-hunts piss me off.

I don't completely agree.

I don't like it when people try to infer things. For example, we can't really cast judgement on if he is or isn't cheating. I also agree that sometimes people see any fragment of sloppy play or a forgetful moment and instantly assume ill intent.

On the other hand, without the internet folks getting all rabble roused about it, this may have stayed in the dark. It came to light and was presented to FFG OP staff to make a decision on the matter.

I also like having these discussions because I frequently am a TO and/or Judge and knowing about these situations is benefitial. Having prior time to think about them helps because I can decide what I would do in a situation like that if I saw it or it was brought to my attention.

This type of thing REALLY annoys me.

I am a dentist. Millimeters matter a great deal to me in my work.

I'm not a dentist. Millimeters matter bugger all to me in my work...

So am I not allowed to play the game or what? Is this a game only for dentists, precision-engineers, bomb disposal experts, etc.?

Having watched the video a few times at all different speeds, it could be that he's cheating, I dunno, but I dread the day I get recorded if people are going to start a witch-hunt over every bump and nudge that takes place.

The idea that people start a "witch-hunt" over ever bump or nudge is pure histrionics on your part. It simply isn't a factual statement to make. Bumps and nudges happen all the time, and yet threads and even posts claiming they are cheating are in comparison fairly rare.

And to call what we can see in this video bumps and nudges is entirely intellectual dishonesty. You have multiple instances of very deliberate movements that result in incorrectly executed maneuvers. Maneuvers that when improperly executed in that manner directly benefit the party improperly executing them. You then have the contrast of other maneuvers executed in a different deliberate manner that are completed properly. And it's just a coincidence that the properly executed maneuvers are the ones of no consequence while the improperly executed ones matter?

No, you absolutely don't need to have a dentists precision to play this game competitivly. But if you can't help but fudge movements that matter in a manner that benefits you, while otherwise normally executing inconsequential movements perfectly then maybe you shouldn't be playing in tournaments.

Histrionics, good word. 17 scrabble points for you! I'm making that my word of the day.

Sorry, continue on...

Internet forum witch-hunts piss me off.

I don't completely agree.

I don't like it when people try to infer things. For example, we can't really cast judgement on if he is or isn't cheating. I also agree that sometimes people see any fragment of sloppy play or a forgetful moment and instantly assume ill intent.

On the other hand, without the internet folks getting all rabble roused about it, this may have stayed in the dark. It came to light and was presented to FFG OP staff to make a decision on the matter.

I also like having these discussions because I frequently am a TO and/or Judge and knowing about these situations is benefitial. Having prior time to think about them helps because I can decide what I would do in a situation like that if I saw it or it was brought to my attention.

As a TO, you have to be willing to infer intent. Otherwise, short of a confession from the player, you could never conclude that a player was cheating.

That is not to say the bar for that inference needs to be anything but high, but it still has to be something you are not going to rule out.

It's pointless to try and attach intent to each an every error. Afterall intent isn't even required for a penalty to be issued for that error. A player could be given a game loss or even a DQ for something that no other person would ever say is purposeful, provided the error warrented that penalty regardless of intent.

But from the position of a TO/Judge/FFG there has to be a point when you are willing to conclude that there isn't a reasonable explanation for a players actions except for it being a deliberate attempt to violate the rules to their benefit.

And I think what's being exhibited here meets that standard. Had it just been one ship that was moved improperly, I'd disagree. Had it been all ships, I might just call it sloppy play (though sloppy enough I'd serve notice to the player). Or even if he moved all the ship's in the same fashion, I might have doubts. But that the two ships that moved short were the ships that he needed to be further away and that they were moved differently then the other, I don't think I have an reasonable explanation beyond infering intent.

Internet forum witch-hunts piss me off.

I don't completely agree.

I don't like it when people try to infer things. For example, we can't really cast judgement on if he is or isn't cheating. I also agree that sometimes people see any fragment of sloppy play or a forgetful moment and instantly assume ill intent.

On the other hand, without the internet folks getting all rabble roused about it, this may have stayed in the dark. It came to light and was presented to FFG OP staff to make a decision on the matter.

I also like having these discussions because I frequently am a TO and/or Judge and knowing about these situations is benefitial. Having prior time to think about them helps because I can decide what I would do in a situation like that if I saw it or it was brought to my attention.

As a TO, you have to be willing to infer intent. Otherwise, short of a confession from the player, you could never conclude that a player was cheating.

That is not to say the bar for that inference needs to be anything but high, but it still has to be something you are not going to rule out.

It's pointless to try and attach intent to each an every error. Afterall intent isn't even required for a penalty to be issued for that error. A player could be given a game loss or even a DQ for something that no other person would ever say is purposeful, provided the error warrented that penalty regardless of intent.

But from the position of a TO/Judge/FFG there has to be a point when you are willing to conclude that there isn't a reasonable explanation for a players actions except for it being a deliberate attempt to violate the rules to their benefit.

And I think what's being exhibited here meets that standard. Had it just been one ship that was moved improperly, I'd disagree. Had it been all ships, I might just call it sloppy play (though sloppy enough I'd serve notice to the player). Or even if he moved all the ship's in the same fashion, I might have doubts. But that the two ships that moved short were the ships that he needed to be further away and that they were moved differently then the other, I don't think I have an reasonable explanation beyond infering intent.

Good points all around. I've had situations where I walk up to a game and it's a matter of who you believe. You didn't see what happened and there's no evidence either way. Those decisions are the worst, but it's your job to determine what happened and what the best resolution is. Each judge has to determine on their own how they make those rulings. Fortunately I've not had a game where I had to make a decision and either party was upset over it. Perhaps they didn't agree, but the ruling was accepted and everyone moved on with their day.

Yeah, I can take pics. I just have to remember... I actually just pieced the idea together from a few different threads on here.

1) I roughen the bottom/inside of the base with sandpaper

2) roughen 1/2 washer

3) epoxy washer to inside of base

4) glue bumpers into the "corners" that the washer doesn't contact.

These bumpers work perfect: https://www.amazon.c...e?ie=UTF8&psc=1

So here are a few pics of my altered bases. I ONLY painted the "intaglio" (underside concavity) of the bases. I used painters tape to cover the edges. I didn't want any opponent to think I my templates are up against paint rather than the plastic of the base.

I'm applying some serious force to this base and it barely budges.

Yeah, I can take pics. I just have to remember... I actually just pieced the idea together from a few different threads on here.

1) I roughen the bottom/inside of the base with sandpaper

2) roughen 1/2 washer

3) epoxy washer to inside of base

4) glue bumpers into the "corners" that the washer doesn't contact.

These bumpers work perfect: https://www.amazon.c...e?ie=UTF8&psc=1

So here are a few pics of my altered bases. I ONLY painted the "intaglio" (underside concavity) of the bases. I used painters tape to cover the edges. I didn't want any opponent to think I my templates are up against paint rather than the plastic of the base.

I'm applying some serious force to this base and it barely budges.

He should be reported and given a warning.

Yes...so what is legal and not legal and bottom of base mods?. I use bumpers and it works so great except on a lower soft surface. I have seen better with a silicon putty insert (but I don't like pink). Nice when stuff doesn't randomly move around. If I remember I ask them if it is ok. If not, I change out quickly.

the paint on those bases is very thick..... i found spraying them leaves a thinner coat and you can use things like an old mouse pad (cut to fit and super glued inside the base) as a great movement/bump/slip/spacual drifting stopper

Internet forum witch-hunts piss me off.

I don't completely agree.

I don't like it when people try to infer things. For example, we can't really cast judgement on if he is or isn't cheating. I also agree that sometimes people see any fragment of sloppy play or a forgetful moment and instantly assume ill intent.

On the other hand, without the internet folks getting all rabble roused about it, this may have stayed in the dark. It came to light and was presented to FFG OP staff to make a decision on the matter.

I also like having these discussions because I frequently am a TO and/or Judge and knowing about these situations is benefitial. Having prior time to think about them helps because I can decide what I would do in a situation like that if I saw it or it was brought to my attention.

As a TO, you have to be willing to infer intent. Otherwise, short of a confession from the player, you could never conclude that a player was cheating.

Strongly disagree. As TO you have to know the rules. It someone breaks them, even when unintentional, in away which discredit the tournament integrity you just disqualify that guy. Moving nearly 2 cm backwards on a simple straight and then ignoring the first measurement of R1, shooting and taking that shuttle from the board. Jup, invalids the game and thus all further games. They guy should be out and a lot of people getting one up on their final placings.

On top of that you get that thing on minute 12, which is disgusting and as well very advantageous because it keeps the ship aligned with the borders and thus easier to move.

He should be reported and given a warning.

Yes...so what is legal and not legal and bottom of base mods?. I use bumpers and it works so great except on a lower soft surface. I have seen better with a silicon putty insert (but I don't like pink). Nice when stuff doesn't randomly move around. If I remember I ask them if it is ok. If not, I change out quickly.

Are you planning on using these bases at Gencon? I figure as long as the base isn't lifted off the surface more than a couple hairs, you're good. The biggest concern is game integrity. Since the base bottoms are slanted away you have to make sure they are as close to the surface as possible to make sure bumps happen where expected, templates fit correctly, range is properly measures, etc. Curious what the FFG Marshals would say.

As you alluded to, always be prepared with equipment you know is legal without question.

FFG has been notified and replied that they are aware and discussing the outcome.