I'd be inclined to say that if any of the targets (and they are all targets for whirlwind) has shield remaining after applying pierce, the attack does not gain the +2 damage. The attack certainly does not have different damage results for different targets (it either adds 2 damage for all or for none). My reasoning for not applying the damage if any of the targets have shields remaining is based on how range to multiple targets. To hit (not miss) an attack is required to have range to all targets, not just to some. I'd think then that in order to gain the damage bonus, the condition has to be true for all targets, not just for 1.

Tricky question, but I would agree with Zaltyre here. Either the attack gains +2 to all because all targets meet the requirement, or it doesn't.

Here is another interesting question: What happens if Carve a Path is used with Bearded Axe? In this case, there are no targeted monsters (which is a requirement for the Bearded Axe), only 'affected' monsters. In that case, does it mean that it is impossible for the bearded axe to gain a damage bonus, even if affected monsters have insufficient shields?

Here is another interesting question: What happens if Carve a Path is used with Bearded Axe? In this case, there are no targeted monsters (which is a requirement for the Bearded Axe), only 'affected' monsters. In that case, does it mean that it is impossible for the bearded axe to gain a damage bonus, even if affected monsters have insufficient shields?

I'd be much more confident about a "yes" here. There is no target (this has been verified) so the trigger "the target has no shields remaining" cannot be fulfilled.

Thx for answer !

For Karnon's feat with Whirlwind , if this attack target a minion and a master , will this feat be effectless ?

Similar Charmy's question , Hybrid sentinel's Pray on Weak target a hero with 1 str, and convert breathe to effect other heroes with 3 str ,

Will For the first target keep Pray on Weak's bonus?

On the topic of OP:s question, ignoring RTL (since I do not play it) I'm not sure I agree with Zaltyre, or I'm just failing to accept the rationale. Range is a different issue, and not necessarily connected. As in, I think you need to have a range to hit a target, but there's no reason to think that each target wouldn't count seperately, especially when the wording already seperates them based on their defence.

Since each target rolls defence seperately, and Pierce is applied seperately, I'd have the effect apply seperately. Whirlwind specifically states "Perform an attack with a Melee weapon targeting all adjacent monsters." All adjacent monsters are targeted in plural.

Meaning that, assuming 4 Damage, 2 Pierce, and +2 Dmg if Defense is 0 or lower:

• A (4 Def, 2 Pierced, Total of 2): 2 Dmg.
• B (2 Def, 2 Pierced, Total of 0): 6 Dmg.
• C (3 Def, 2 Pierced, Total of 1): 3 Dmg.

Here is another interesting question: What happens if Carve a Path is used with Bearded Axe? In this case, there are no targeted monsters (which is a requirement for the Bearded Axe), only 'affected' monsters. In that case, does it mean that it is impossible for the bearded axe to gain a damage bonus, even if affected monsters have insufficient shields?

I'd be much more confident about a "yes" here. There is no target (this has been verified) so the trigger "the target has no shields remaining" cannot be fulfilled.

I must say, that's the weirdest thing ever. I'd understand if it only had one target, based on the wording of Carve A Path, but nobody counts as a target? That's just... odd. How's anyone supposed to know that, based on the wording?

Edit: Oh, I re-read it, and I guess I could see it now. It doesn't say that it targets anyone, you just perform an attack as part of the action, and all the monsters are affected . Still, I think that's some mangy rationale not to count as targets, right there. It doesn't actually say how defence is supposed to be rolled either; since almost all (all?) other abilities/skills/weapons stipulate "... each monster rolls its defense dice separately" you could infer that in this one case, you don't. Which would just be odd.

Thx for answer !

For Karnon's feat with Whirlwind , if this attack target a minion and a master , will this feat be effectless ?

[...]

It depends on interpretation. With my interpretation, which may very well be wrong, since Karnon is targeting a minion monster as part of the attack, as described in his Heroic Feat , I see no reason why it'd be without effect.

And yes, I just realized how absolutely crazy insane that is, but c'est la vie.

Edit: Stupid double-post.

Hybrid sentinel's Pray on Weak target a hero with 1 str, and convert breathe to effect other heroes with 3 str ,

Will For the first target keep Pray on Weak's bonus?

Yes, this question has been asked a few times. In the case of Hybrid Sentinels, if the target of the attack conveyed an attack bonus because of Prey on the Weak, then the resulting Fire Breath attack would get a damage bonus that applies to all the heroes affected by it, regardless of their own strength values. This is because a Fire Breath attack still has only one target, no matter how many are affected.

This synergy also makes such attacks a great time to use things like Critical Blow, Expert Blow, etc.

On the topic of OP:s question, ignoring RTL (since I do not play it) I'm not sure I agree with Zaltyre, or I'm just failing to accept the rationale. Range is a different issue, and not necessarily connected. As in, I think you need to have a range to hit a target, but there's no reason to think that each target wouldn't count seperately, especially when the wording already seperates them based on their defence.

Since each target rolls defence seperately, and Pierce is applied seperately, I'd have the effect apply seperately. Whirlwind specifically states "Perform an attack with a Melee weapon targeting all adjacent monsters." All adjacent monsters are targeted in plural.

The problem with this, is the way in which the Bearded Axe is worded. The Bearded Axe states that the attack gains +2 damage when the conditions are met. The attack is something performed on all the targets of Whirlwind and cannot have different values for each individual target.

This doesn't mean that different targets can't take different amount of damage mind you. For example, one target may be adjacent to a Shadow Soul, or one target may have the Doomed condition. In those cases, those monsters may take more damage than others.

However, since the Bearded Axe bonus applies to the entire attack, if it applied its effect separately for each creature, then the result would be continually ramping damage for every target that met the condition. (e.g. If 3 monsters hit by Whirlwind didn't roll enough shields, then the attack would gain +6 damage). Obviously that is broken.

I think Zaltyre's ruling is the only reasonable one. Probably something to send to FFG ultimately for confirmation, but I'd go with his interpretation for now.

I'd like to see an errata on the Bearded Axe that says something like, "If the monster doesn't roll enough shields, then this monster suffers an additional +2 hearts"... I already think the Bearded Axe is a little overpowered though, so do the heroes need that buff?

Oh, I re-read it, and I guess I could see it now. It doesn't say that it targets anyone, you just perform an attack as part of the action, and all the monsters are affected . Still, I think that's some mangy rationale not to count as targets, right there. It doesn't actually say how defence is supposed to be rolled either; since almost all (all?) other abilities/skills/weapons stipulate "... each monster rolls its defense dice separately" you could infer that in this one case, you don't. Which would just be odd.

You are correct in that Carve the Path has "no targets", as odd as that is. And yeah, it doesn't state that monsters roll their defense dice separately, but that is what you're supposed to do. Unfortunately Descent is notorious for some times reiterating rules that are already stated elsewhere, and other times not.

Another interesting side effect of attacking someone with Carve a Path is that "Stealthy" does not work against the attack, because no targeting of the Stealthy monster is performed.

It depends on interpretation. With my interpretation, which may very well be wrong, since Karnon is targeting a minion monster as part of the attack, as described in his Heroic Feat , I see no reason why it'd be without effect.

And yes, I just realized how absolutely crazy insane that is, but c'est la vie.

Yes, you are correct. In the case of the new Karnon using Whirlwind, the Whirlwind attack does target all the monsters adjacent to him. If a minion monster is included in this targeting, then he will benefit from fixing the dice for the attack as a whole - improving the damage vs. all monsters.

Its a good combo, but I don't think its overpowered. Fixing the dice of an attack once per encounter isn't as strong as the original feat, which defeated the minion monster outright. He doesn't even get to mess with the defense dice of the monsters.

Regarding any attack that targets (or affects) multiple monsters, it is always true that there is one single set of "attack results". That is, there is 1 roll made with the attack pool, which results in a certain number of hearts, surges, and range. Each defender (whether targeted or just affected) gets to roll his own defense pool to come up with his own "defense results", or number of shields.

The attack results can be altered by spending surges (or by other abilities that add hearts or surges), but that results (again) in a SINGLE set of attack results at the end of step 4/beginning of step 5. That is, there is a single "damage", "pierce", etc value. Each defender subtracts his defense results from the attack results to determine the damage dealt to each defender.

In the simplest terms, there is only ever 1 attack. There may be multiple defenses, but they all defend against the same attack. That's why (as far as the range issue for sure, for "prey on the weak" and "fire breath" for sure, and for the bearded axe I think) it's all or none, because there is only 1 attack to gain the +2 wound (or not). In the case of range, the [single] attack is a miss, or not.

Please note that the range is slightly different, because there only needs to be enough range to reach the(those) space(s) declared at the beginning of the attack. For example, you're not going to "miss by range" because you include other figures in your attack via "fire breath" or "blast". The range is only needed to determine if the attack connects at all- blast and fire breath are entirely separate. This is a non-issue if you follow the combat steps in order. In step 3 the attack is determined to hit or miss, and then surges are spent to add things like blast or fire breath. They come after the "miss" determination, so they don't alter it.

I would say that since all the monster are "affected" by the attack and there's no target, the special text of the Bearded axe cannot apply.

Hybrid sentinel's Pray on Weak target a hero with 1 str, and convert breathe to effect other heroes with 3 str ,

Will For the first target keep Pray on Weak's bonus?

Yes, this question has been asked a few times. In the case of Hybrid Sentinels, if the target of the attack conveyed an attack bonus because of Prey on the Weak, then the resulting Fire Breath attack would get a damage bonus that applies to all the heroes affected by it, regardless of their own strength values. This is because a Fire Breath attack still has only one target, no matter how many are affected.

This synergy also makes such attacks a great time to use things like Critical Blow, Expert Blow, etc.

I didn't know this one and applied the +1 damage only for the heroes which meet the strength requirement. That means I applied the +1 damage also if the first target is a hero with 3 strength.

In the case with whirlwind and the bearded axe, I would apply the bonus also individually. From a pure logical point of view: the bearded axe is something nasty which deals more damage if it hits you directly. That means that the bonus applies only to heroes without shields in their defense pool.

I mean, everything else seems extremely unlogical: suppose there is a knight in heavy armor and a mage in a robe standing next to each other. Something nasty is coming their way. Then the mage doesn't get bonus damage BECAUSE of the knights armor? Makes no sense to me.

I would resolve this issue the following way:

Whirlwind simply has n targets where n is the number of monsters around the hero, but only one attack. Boni and mali apply individually. (Can this be broken by another item/rule?)

I mean, everything else seems extremely unlogical: suppose there is a knight in heavy armor and a mage in a robe standing next to each other. Something nasty is coming their way. Then the mage doesn't get bonus damage BECAUSE of the knights armor? Makes no sense to me.

I would resolve this issue the following way:

Whirlwind simply has n targets where n is the number of monsters around the hero, but only one attack. Boni and mali apply individually. (Can this be broken by another item/rule?)

Whirlwind already functions the way you stated. It has 'n' targets where 'n' is the number of monsters adjacent to the hero, and there is only one attack.

The 'unthematic' problem with the Bearded Axe you are referring to again comes back to the way the Bearded Axe is worded. The bonus is granted to the attack - of which there is only one, and there is no provision for applying bonuses and penalties individually when that is the case.

This 'unthematic' issue extends to any multi-hit attack that receives modifications because of properties possessed by only some of the affected.

The only way to resolve these thematic issues would be to reword these abilities so they that convey 'additional damage' to specific monsters and not modify the attack itself. This is how it is done with bonus damage dealt by the Shadow Soul for example.

Thus, one way to 'fix' the bearded axe would be to word it as follows:

When a figure suffers damage from an attack performed by this weapon, and the figure had no shields remaining on its defense roll, this figure suffers an additional 2 damage.

Wording isn't concise, but it achieves the desired effect with minimal rule issues.

Charmy's got it. The other example that has come up (and comes up often) is hybrid sentinel "prey on the weak" with firebreath. If the target (there is only 1) has a might of 2 or less, the whole attack gets +1. The might of the other heroes is irrelevant. If the target has a might greater than 2, the attack does not get +1 (again, the might of the additional "fire breathed" heroes is irrelevant.)

Strange, but ok. Good to know. We might ask FFG for clarification/errata on this issue. It may be that they didn't intend this outcome. Personally, I prefer the rules to be intuitive and this case is imo very counter-intuitive and prone to lengthy discussions when everybody just wants to play.

You are welcome to ask FFG about this, but I'm 100% on the range and the prey on the weak/ fire breath thing (that has already been asked about). I would find bearded axe working differently to be more confusing, not less (unless it got a rewrite similar to what charmy suggested- that would be clear.)

Another silimar question:

When Tethrys feat uses in "chosen targe" and "longshot"(Bounty Hunter skill),

(1)All my target must meet 5 range to get +1 damage from longshot?

(2)Can I get +1 dmg if second target had tracked token?

Or because of multiple target attack,"chosen track" can't be work?

In my view, it all is determined based on timing. First:
1) No, I don't think so (explain below)
2) No, I don't think so (explain below)

Look at the attack in order:

-Tetherys "pre-rolls" her attack pool

Step 1: Declare Weapon and Target:
-Chosen Target triggers, adding +1 to the attack if and only if the single, original target has the tracking token.

Step 2: Roll dice:
-Before rolling, Tetherys can exhaust Longshot to add +3 range (and another +1 damage) to the attack results if and only if the single, original target is 5 or more spaces away.

-After rolling dice, Tetherys can choose 2 additional monsters to become targets of the attack already in progress. This has no effect on the previously determined attack results (which, assuming the original target was tracked and 5 spaces away has +3 range and +2 damage in addition to what's shown on her dice).

ok , thx !