HERO- just trying to figure out your point. Are you saying FFG isn't doing a good job because they aren't supporting Armada as well right now as they do xwing right now (fewer releases) or that they aren't doing a good job because there aren't enough players? Can you give me a brief explanation of what you are upset about?

Thanks!

I think when you look at the raw numbers and metrics of a game like X-Wing vs. Armada, the signs are not very promising from a business need perspective. I work in data and metrics all the time and when I see these trends, it's very worrisome. If the supply and demand of the playerbase for a game is much larger than another while pulling from the relative playerpool e.g. people interested in Star Wars, this can result in one product cannibalizing the other in terms of resources (from a business perspective). There's actual proof in that both games share the same playerbase, as even Lyraeous will tell you that most players either stay, or leave for X-Wing, both all share the same crowd of predominately fans interested in the Star Wars franchise.

I just see worrying trends, and it gets more worrisome when the velocity of product releases for X-Wing increases whereas the scope of the overall release for Armada it not nearly as impressive. When Wave 2 came out, I was not nearly as doom and gloom because the data that I needed to be worried about wasn't quite there. The product was still relatively fresh and I was still very much empathetic for FFG's business model. However, this year, I'm not as thrilled first because of "Wave 3" loljoke.jpg, and now Wave 4, which should actually just be called Wave 3. Overall, just not very happy with how FFG's business strategy with X-Wing. If I was them, I'd be riding the franchise hype train as hard as I can because the next couple of years are literally loaded with SW movies.

First off, thanks for the response. You mention the metrics of Atmada and xwing. What would those be? Are they purely experiential or from other sources?

For what it is worth, my experience is that Armada has a lot fewer players than xwing. I have even sen some who play both stick more to xwing because they get more games in or prefer it.

However, I disagree with your assessment of game health. I remember wave IV xwing. Few played where I was. It was still building. Armada is in the same boat. I dont, nevertheless, believe that Armada is going to have the popularity of Xwing. It is a different game and isn't going to get the same play. That doesn't mean they won't keep it going.

The difference in popularity isn't due (primarily) to release schedule. Instead, IMO, game length, depth of play, and releasing after Xwimg are all the reasons Aada won't be as popular.

In the end, the release schedule is allowing for good, balanced gameplay and speeding it up won't likely increase popularity. Thus, good job FFG IMO.

Thanks for responding yourself, but I'm going to put a small dent in the high-fives and this guy gets it emotional roller coaster that's going on in this thread a bit.

First, I'd like to say that I'd like to keep this emotion free when we're talking specifically about metrics. I'll be first to admit that I like Armada way more than X-WIng, but that's because I come from over 15+ years of 40K and BFG. Big surprise there, maybe to Lycareos, but I'm sure he hasn't really looked at my blog in a while to know where my actual roots are before I started posting here.

The metrics I provided were in the form of ratios and proportions used as an approximation for numbers that I do have in my immediate area, the greater SoCal and NorCal region, as well as Nevada and Arizona for the sake for gather further data of nearby areas that might share a different opinion. Since our Regionals have attendees from these areas, it made a lot of sense to pull from nearby states as well. You can find this a few pages back. And yes, they were done out of pure curiosity because I was seeing a downward trend to player attendance and I wanted to see what was causing it. Before, a year ago roughly, I was in a same boat as many others in this forum where a few "doomsayers" came in and started talking about Armada dying off in their area. For me, it was still too new and I wasn't seeing the immediate signs nearly as problematic from the other posters on the forum. Sure, the hobby was more expensive than X-WIng and the initial buy-in was significantly more; but realistically, it was still nothing compared to 40K/Fantasy or Warmahordes.

OK, so going back to our discussion about game health. I started looking into a few metrics based on numbers gathered for attendance for store tournaments, casual tournaments, weekly game nights, and either gathered them myself (I was either TO, a player, floor-runner, demoing games, or an admin on a FB page), and I started doing it for about 9 months now. For social media I used FB, for X-Wing comparison metrics I used both X-wing list juggler and data from other store runners, and for my immediate data, I used connections that I have in the blogosphere as well as TOs from surrounding areas. What I saw was a worrying decline of Armada players and a sharp increase in X-Wing players. At first, I was like sure, there's a dry spell and the release cadence might be a little off-putting, but as more and more people started vacating game nights and tournaments, I started probing into it a little further. Mind you, this is not area related because when I look over TO sheets and FB sign-ups, they're all within the same distance. So I dug a little deeper and realized that most of these players are also in both gaming clubs for X-Wing and Armada. Further analysis showed that they attended more X-Wing than Armada, on top of the stagger difference in game participation that I presented previously. OK, so what about sales? I started asking local store owners, and then from the other regions and then out of state. X-Wing product just flies off the shelf while they always have Armada in stock. This should be no surprise because its a more expensive hobby. I took all this data and then compared it to the East Coast where I still had connections; mainly in the tri-state area because I'm originally from Jersey. Oh, and I got Delaware involved too because I know some heads there. The end result was that I found the ratios to be similar; in that in terms of player gain (measured through new players in events over time), retention (measured through the same players participating in events over time (TO reports + FB group joins)), and velocity (measured through participation/new players after release cycles), that X-Wing leads Armada approximately 4:1 in all areas, with some absolutely demolishing it. Like I said, some places had to cancel events because they didn't have enough people; while the same people showed to X-WIng events placed around the same dates. Trust me, from a TO perspective, we literally have to scatter Armada and X-Wing around because this kind of data definitively proves without a reasonable doubt that the majority of the playerbase is franchise-specific, not game-specific.

Now, to stop beating a dead horse because seriously, lol, I think I've hurricaned on this parade long enough, how do we fix it? You mentioned that you believe that Armada is going to have the same popularity as X-Wing? Well, for one, 15 years of 40K, and working as a red shirt, seeing the complete fall of BFG, and the trends I see today is not making it any easier. Yes, we have the almighty Disney dollar and the Star Wars name, I understand this 100%. However, can you really say that based purely from data, and not gut feel and emotional ties and most likely heavy financial investment in this game that your statement is true? If I was a business stakeholder and seeing this kind of data, the immediate question for me would be how to make it better. Now, keep in mind that I have no idea what FFG executives do or what their metadata is telling them; but I can assure you from a purely business perspective, if Armada is selling their product for 4x more, than X-WIng but have 1/4th as many players, then it's still perfectly acceptable. With this kind of acceptance, business strategy does not need to change unless they want to push for something more. That's where the community comes in right, like I mentioned before, and probably the only thing me and Lyraeos (I butcher his name every time, I know) have to agree with. If the community can generate more players, this will increase a higher demand on the product, which will sound off alarm bells at FFG headquarters to start producing more product, or god forbid put out more content per year like X-Wing has. Data has proven that with each new release, of anything, X-Wing, Armada, 40K, anything, shows an increase of players. I mean honestly folks, what do you think the goal of an campaign is actually? To drive a narrative and hopefully get more players into the game. It's essentially 40K escalation league with a Star Wars twist, and Escalation leagues regardless of what designers tell you, is to drive sales through inducting more players into the hobby.

Lastly, and this is the last point, I swear, is that when you say that the popularity is the game mechanics, keep in mind that this is strictly personal taste and a notable opinion. Yes, I completely and utterly agree with you that Armada is a superior game. If you've seen the material on my blog or the posts I've made prior to this thread-derailing mini-rant that I'm all in on Armada being one of the best game son the market. However, at the end of the day, we have to look at data as data if we're to make an honest review of the situation.

I see some of you in this thread has made it evident that you're going to spark up new campaigns and get people to play them. GOOD, and I say that honestly because taking the initiative to bring this great game to the forefront is what it needs. However, let it be known in the back of your heads, however deep you want to bury it, is that this game is X-Wing's little brother. He is the firstborn, he reaps all the glory apparently, and his parents are spoiling him heavily for it. That's what I've come to see the last couple of months counting the number of players go by, and it's upsetting none the less. That's probably the only emotional tie I have with all of this, and is to see a great game put on the sidelines. /endrant

Edit: One last thing, seriously, is that if I was given this data in FFG headquarters, I would increase game development for Armada and increase the release cadence. I can't believe I'm saying this, but this is probably the only thing that GW does right. When they sniff out a downward trend, they increase game development to a specific division and release new product at an increased rate. Then they soak in the money and let decadence and most likely stupidity sip away all knowledge of how to actually retain these players. This strategy, in terms of product release, is unsustainable UNLESS, it's Star Wars, and I crap you not. That's why I'm so very surprised that FFG hasn't jumped on this harder for Armada when it's so clear it works for X-Wing. Like I said before, even if Armada was 4x as expensive, as long say sell to the 1/4th of players from the same franchise-related demographic, then it's still good. Now, turn that player number to 1/3rd and you can see the dollars rolling in. I think that's what FFG is doing through this campaign, but it's not nearly as good as just faceblasting new releases. Seriously, with this amount of SW hype, this is the perfect opportunity to crap out as much product as possible, at least 2x the amount of content we're seeing right now for Armada. That's what I would do, and as a Armada player, you bet your ass I will be buying it too.

I on the other hand am still sitting here, excited for the campaign, wave 3/4, and bored of walls of ranting text.

HERO. . . Are you being obtuse on purpose now? Obviously people are attending X-Wing more. It is an older game that grew a larger player base.

You are comparing grapes to watermelons. . . Oh who am I kidding, you. Don't even take the time to spell my name right, what point is it talking to a person who is creating a comparison where none can exist.

Oh, I knew your background because you post on BoLS. A select player base posts there.

God's. . . Ok ZERO, go on, keep comparing Armada to X-Wing and keep getting frustrated becuase you can seem to figure out the obvious.

Lyraeus. Hero is looking at fluctuations not magnitudes.

Lyreus,

If my point is so terrible, why are you so quick to go ad hominem? The data is crud because it's old and has no metric or trends. Show me that sales for last quarter were higher than the previous two and you have something. It was a big deal last year? Wow. How are downloads of Gangam Style going? It's a great hit if you look at a single quarter of 2013, but not so much now.

My point on Flotillas is based on the last wave having left the locals bored months ago. It's not quantifiable. Haven't seen a single Armada game outside of the regular X-Wing night where it's gone from two plus to zero or one. I used to also see or play in several a week outside of Star Wars night. My LGS, where the owner is a big fan of the game, did not even have the last tourney or maybe even the one before that.

The new wave looks great, but I can tell you that there will be less buyers of it than the last because there is not enough play to gain players. OTOH, the campaign might be a big deal. But not if they keep taking so long between releases! That's the point. It's not hate, or whinging, or anything other than an experienced observer of the industry telling you his opinion.

Get over it.

HERO. . . Are you being obtuse on purpose now? Obviously people are attending X-Wing more. It is an older game that grew a larger player base.

You are comparing grapes to watermelons. . . Oh who am I kidding, you. Don't even take the time to spell my name right, what point is it talking to a person who is creating a comparison where none can exist.

Oh, I knew your background because you post on BoLS. A select player base posts there.

God's. . . Ok ZERO, go on, keep comparing Armada to X-Wing and keep getting frustrated becuase you can seem to figure out the obvious.

B+ for effort, but you're getting way too emotional for any serious discussion to be had about the matter. Oh, and it's not applies to oranges like you keep saying it, it's just not. That would be something like 40K vs. X-Wing. Armada and X-Wing share the parent company, share the same franchise, share the same stakeholders and decision makers, and share mostly the same playerbase. I mean, lol, trying to call me out about not being to figure out the obvious. The difference here is more synonymous to an older sibling vs. a younger one. Different personalities for sure, but the origin and raising methods might be different.

ZERO, really? I'm hurt man, truly. I rarely bring age into the question, but serious how old? I only ask that because I think the vast majority of what I've been writing the last couple of pages haven't caught on because you're too young to understand it.

Edit: Nm, you're 27. You should be able to understand business, economics, and metrics at this point. Something else must be.. off for you to come back with this kind of response.

Ly-ly, trust me, this is what the 'block' feature is for. It works pretty good.

There's really no point in saying too much more, it's HERO. Might as well try to be nailing jello to a wall for how futile it is to change an opinion for one of the BOLSY sorts. You know it, I know it, most of us with more than a few years in 40K knows it.

Lyraeus. Hero is looking at fluctuations not magnitudes.

Using X-Wing now is pointless. At this point it is a different game, it is a veteran game that has years of player base and experience. In fact many people have recently gotten into the game.

Lets try to avoid attacking each other. We can disagree civilly. We all want the same thing, which is for armada to be successful.

Ly-ly, trust me, this is what the 'block' feature is for. It works pretty good.

There's really no point in saying too much more, it's HERO. Might as well try to be nailing jello to a wall for how futile it is to change an opinion for one of the BOLSY sorts. You know it, I know it, most of us with more than a few years in 40K knows it.

BOLSY as in Bell of Lost Souls? Sure, I write for them once in a while, but I didn't know they carried with them some kind of stereotype.

Hell guys, the ad hominems crowd is out in force today!

Lyreus,

If my point is so terrible, why are you so quick to go ad hominem? The data is crud because it's old and has no metric or trends. Show me that sales for last quarter were higher than the previous two and you have something. It was a big deal last year? Wow. How are downloads of Gangam Style going? It's a great hit if you look at a single quarter of 2013, but not so much now.

My point on Flotillas is based on the last wave having left the locals bored months ago. It's not quantifiable. Haven't seen a single Armada game outside of the regular X-Wing night where it's gone from two plus to zero or one. I used to also see or play in several a week outside of Star Wars night. My LGS, where the owner is a big fan of the game, did not even have the last tourney or maybe even the one before that.

The new wave looks great, but I can tell you that there will be less buyers of it than the last because there is not enough play to gain players. OTOH, the campaign might be a big deal. But not if they keep taking so long between releases! That's the point. It's not hate, or whinging, or anything other than an experienced observer of the industry telling you his opinion.

Get over it.

So if your group has gotten bored I think that is less fault with the game and more fault with the gamers but that is just a personal opinion. Get fresh blood in there. It always helps I think.

Ly-ly, trust me, this is what the 'block' feature is for. It works pretty good.

There's really no point in saying too much more, it's HERO. Might as well try to be nailing jello to a wall for how futile it is to change an opinion for one of the BOLSY sorts. You know it, I know it, most of us with more than a few years in 40K knows it.

Ly-ly, trust me, this is what the 'block' feature is for. It works pretty good.

There's really no point in saying too much more, it's HERO. Might as well try to be nailing jello to a wall for how futile it is to change an opinion for one of the BOLSY sorts. You know it, I know it, most of us with more than a few years in 40K knows it.

/sigh. When Vy speaks up he usually is right. It is sort of pointless to argue with him. He ignores all data he doesn't want to see. Iean, he could check the Regionals data Shmitty collected. Several 20+ tournaments there which for a 6' table ge is pretty good for 13-14 months of age.

Because your data of the release cadence of Waves 1-3 X-Wing vs. Armada waves is super weak. I've argued this repeatedly but you've ignored everything else I've said and continued to ad hominem your way through this thread while piggy-backing on others and liking every post that semi-courses in your direction. It's actually super embarrassing but you somehow think this helps you..

Hell guys, 20+ woohoo! Pop the champagne! Like I've said before, easily pleased. And this whole argument to not compare X-Wing to Armada at all. Sure, because we haven't seen in other games spanned across multiple industries and developers what happens to the less played game. Again, I look forward to Ly's amazingly thought-filled response.

Edit: lol, this forum censors d-a-m-n?

This campaign has been my biggest want since I started playing this game. Thanks FFG.

Also, good to see that the player bases of other miniature games don't hold the monopoly on "the sky is falling" mentality. You guys should get out from behind your keyboards and catch some fresh air that doesn't involve chasing pocket monsters

This campaign has been my biggest want since I started playing this game. Thanks FFG.

Also, good to see that the player bases of other miniature games don't hold the monopoly on "the sky is falling" mentality. You guys should get out from behind your keyboards and catch some fresh air that doesn't involve chasing pocket monsters

Sky is not falling, but FFG can surely do better. As a customer, you should never settle IMO, always push the company to do better.

Also, Pokemon is a brilliant proof of concept. While I haven't played Go myself, it has completely revolutionized the way we should view ALL games and forms of entertainment.

Then now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

I don't exactly dislike you, HERO, you tend to have good insight into a number of angles that encompass modern gaming. Hell, I don't even necessarily disagree with everything you're saying, but you can be bombastically self congratulatory amongst other traits which gets on some people's nerves. What I'm saying is for Lyraeus' sake, not yours.

You wanted to de-escalate this and steer it on track, fine: show it and lets get on to a different non Wave III-IV doom monger line of thought. Lets talk about the campaign:

What would you like to see done in the mechanics behind the scenes that incorporate the standard Armada ruleset and that of the campaign? We haven't got much word of how it'll work other than there's X number of campaign points. That and we have stations with stats. So, what should we expect to see, what would you like to see, and what (from past experiences in other systems) might be an interesting avenue to take this in regards to future campaign expansions?

Post Scriptum: yeah this forum has a wonky censorship filter, we found out on another off-topic thread when someone mentioned certain parts of one's anatomy. One was censored, the other wasn't.

This campaign has been my biggest want since I started playing this game. Thanks FFG.

Also, good to see that the player bases of other miniature games don't hold the monopoly on "the sky is falling" mentality. You guys should get out from behind your keyboards and catch some fresh air that doesn't involve chasing pocket monsters

The campaign is going to be fantastic. I have plans with my main FLGS to have one of my 2 sets in store.

Oh, you won't need 2 sets, I am getting it becuase I have 2 core sets so that I can teach people with what comes in the core and so that we won't have to share damage decks/objectives. Gives them a more realistic feel of the core set and game as a whole.

The set in the store will be my main campaign I think. I also want to integrate boarding actions but that is a different thing entirely!

I mean, if you can classify bombing his pleasantvlile garden with facts and metrics as bombastically self-congratulatory, then I'll take that as a compliment. I, however, am actually quite sad about the numbers personally.

As for this whole campaign thing, I think they're on the right track, but going in the wrong direction.

I think they should leverage the success of X-Wing and tie it in with how it can be incorporated into Armada.

For example, I'm about to roll out my own campaign that I think can run on its own legs, but works better with this campaign that FFG put out. The idea is simple: Run a campaign game where you have Armada running next to the X-Wing table. So the requirements are for you to crap out all the initial Armada stuff while your friends are enjoying playing X-Wing. The hook is that however good/badly your Armada game is going, the X-WIng table will either gain reinforcements or "power-ups" that will be randomly selected. If Imperials are winning for example, they'll get momentary buffs like a free action, or a Emperor's re-roll, or even an extra ship that flies off the map kinda like reserves. If the Rebels are winning in space, they'll get reinforcements, or Han Solo's help briefly before he flies away, or something else of that ilk.

This kind of campaign is a great way to introduce people into the grand scheme of things; that both games should be interconnected just like the movies, and how the fleet is in direct support of the smaller skirmish behind smaller fighter-based engagements.

I plan to roll this campaign out across my local meta as soon as this "escalation" style campaign takes off, complete with Wave 3/4 ships in hand to expand playability and options. The goal of this project will be to approach the X-Wing crowd from another angle (like I said previously, instead of cannabalizing the same playerbase, I'm integrating them). The X-Wing crowd does not have campaigns like Armada has and this is a great way to take advantage of this situation while making the game accessible for potential new players. If you're interested, I can continue sharing, but this is the direction I'd like to go once I get Waves 3/4.

I got this idea from the days I ran campaigns for my BFG/40K league where admirals and generals worked together to share victory and defeat. When you look at Star Wars Rebellion (the new SW boardgame), they use similar mechanics as well. Therefore, I think this is a great opportunity to play with something that not only FFG supports inherently, but adds creativity to the TO/GM-hybrid running it (as long as they own both X-Wing and Armada, or maybe just Armada and have a friend bring X-Wing).

Its a Grand idea, to be sure, but there's a lot to be said for straightforward simplicity in convincing people to play.

Campaign boarding rule:

1. If you destroy an enemy ship by ramming, and the ramming ship survives, and the speed of the ramming ship is 1, you may choose to capture any admirals or unique officers as prisoners. They are now prisoners on board the ship that captured them, and they can be killed if that ship is destroyed this battle, or recaptured by boarding.

2. If the battle ends and the prisoners survive, the capturing player gains 1 extra campaign point.

3. If the capturing ship appears in another battle, it will not have the prisoners on board (except as dictated by rule 4)

4. At the start of any battle, each ship with command 3 or greater has a 1/6 chance of holding a previously captured prisoner on board.

Its a Grand idea, to be sure, but there's a lot to be said for straightforward simplicity in convincing people to play.

Well, my rules package is actually dead simple. In short, just play games next to each other, but have the two games influence each other.

For example, I had a mini-mission placed on the X-Wing table where if Luke made it across the table without dying, he'll make a "bombing run" on my ISD-II on the other table. He will auto-succeed with his black hit/crit. Likewise, if the Imperials start cleaning house over on the Armada table, the X-Wing table will be affected as well (I mentioned some before).

The idea here is that you're introducing Armada as part of a narrative to the X-Wing crowd, and not the other way around. Not only do you know for sure that there's more X-Wing players, but you know that influencing their game in very minute ways that adds a narrative will give them what they're craving: Which is a lack of story and justification for why exactly there's a dogfight occurring in the first place.

Take it whatever way makes you happy.

Ly-ly, dial it back on 'em too, akay mate? It's been, what, 3 pages? There's not going to be some sudden miraculous revelation for either of you.

It's a good idea, Hero. I like it, as I have no animosity towards X-wing. The idea of leveraging in the other miniature games, X-wing and Imperial Assault sounds like a good way to allow for some cross platform germination and possibly expand the interest in each particular line. Likewise, I do think it's a great idea to potentially get X-wing players on side given that they haven't received any campaign support yet. They do have the brilliant Heroes of the Aturi Cluster of course, but official support can go a long way into fostering some cross gamer support.

Honestly, yes I'd like you to continue, please. It's a good and fun line of thought that certainly piques my interest.

My personal little anecdote is that X-wing players still tend to play the same amount of time per 'session as Armada gamers, there's just more of it happening due to the difference in pacing. But, here's my question: how is the community spirit between X-wing and Armada communities? Is there enough of a bridge between them in your local areas to support that kind of interaction? I only say it because I feel like one of the few people in my Armada community that doesn't have some odd grudge against X-wing, and X-wing players tend to be hesitant or even dismissive of Armada (not all of course, or even the majority. Just the vocal minority, par normal.)

Ly-ly, trust me, this is what the 'block' feature is for. It works pretty good.

TIL there is a "block" feature. THANK YOU!

...as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in asininity, and were suddenly silenced.

Oh, X-Wing players here are downright derisive of Armada daring to take 1-2 tables every second Week.

I tweak their noses back from time to time.

I have gotten maybe 10 X-Wing players to play Armada, some are getting into Armada, some are 50-50. Most don't dare try becuase they are "too deep into X-Wing"

X-Wing is pretty big in my area, we have at least 5 stores who have game days in the area but it was not always so big. 2014-2015 was he big draw years.