Yo, this got heated in a rush.

What's "NPE" stand for?

Negative Play Experience. A fancy way of saying, "not fun".

Goomba himself is a NPE, no matter what he flies. ^-^

Lol

I agree with him 99%

I've never enjoyed playing a game - win or lose - more than this one, so my NPEs are few and far between. However, I do acknowledge there are, unequivocally, flaws in the balance of this game from a competitive perspective.

That being said, casual games are their own "best" game type and I wish people would be a little less myopic and consider that not every post, player, or game element has a place in the competitive realm.

/soapbox

Agree with Vineheart 100%. In the end of the day Palp Aces have glaring flaws that you can use to beat them. They're action-dependent (and token-dependent) and thus prone to stress, blocking, denial, conner nets and anything that ignores green dice. On top of that all the PTL aces have very limited dials at their disposal. It's the repositioning that makes them so nimble but in order to reposition you need to be able to perform your actions in the first place. Of course a skilled player can pull off some crazy evasive maneuvers to avoid blocks or get in a superior position - that's what makes aces fun to play. But it's hardly a one sided affair and saying that only the ace player plays the game is ridiculous. Aces are strong but hardly unbeatable.

So.... The developers mentioned there would be a direct counter to the u boats coming in wave 9. I guess heroes could be included. Originally i thought it might be the system upgrade come with the tie/sf. However, that is not the case. Also doesnt look like it comes with the arc either. My personal feeling is that it will b one of the fang fighter pilots, but not certain.

What are your thoughts? Have we seen a counter yet? They clearly mentioned a direct counter, not a nerf (like the faq). Thoughts?

I dunno, "Backdraft" seems like he'd be pretty deadly to them. "Quickdraw" as well.

So.... The developers mentioned there would be a direct counter to the u boats coming in wave 9. I guess heroes could be included. Originally i thought it might be the system upgrade come with the tie/sf. However, that is not the case. Also doesnt look like it comes with the arc either. My personal feeling is that it will b one of the fang fighter pilots, but not certain.

What are your thoughts? Have we seen a counter yet? They clearly mentioned a direct counter, not a nerf (like the faq). Thoughts?

I dunno, "Backdraft" seems like he'd be pretty deadly to them. "Quickdraw" as well.

just quickdraw, really

Backdraft doesn't do anything especially egregious to torpscouts (especially when he doesn't have thrusters). Backdraft in general doesn't counter anything, he's just a powerful aux arc that will perform based on how well you fly him

Quickdraw's double-tap, though, is particularly effective against lower agility ships as they roll less greens against both her attacks. At range 1 with rage, she could help your squad drop one before it fires rather easily

Agree with Vineheart 100%. In the end of the day Palp Aces have glaring flaws that you can use to beat them. They're action-dependent (and token-dependent) and thus prone to stress, blocking, denial, conner nets and anything that ignores green dice. On top of that all the PTL aces have very limited dials at their disposal. It's the repositioning that makes them so nimble but in order to reposition you need to be able to perform your actions in the first place. Of course a skilled player can pull off some crazy evasive maneuvers to avoid blocks or get in a superior position - that's what makes aces fun to play. But it's hardly a one sided affair and saying that only the ace player plays the game is ridiculous. Aces are strong but hardly unbeatable.

They aren't vulnerable to blocking though. If you bump a Soontir and he only has his naked 4 agility dice and Palpatine to defend with, there is a 48% of doing zero damage IF you get 3 hits.

You do realize that Soontir has all of his 2 speeds green, and can just 4 straight green right? Inquisitor similarly. Having to do a green one hard is not limiting.

Conner Nets? Autoblaster weapons? Hot garbage against everything that isn't worth 11.666... per damage.

When one player can turn blank blank focus on 3 agility dice to 4 evade results, only one player is actually playing the game.

I've won pretty much all of my games with my Juke Stealth Device x7 Vessery, Inquisitor, FCS Palp Shuttle list that weren't against the one guy running a ~50 point Crackshot Bossk party bus purely to hard counter Acewings. It's OP as **** and requires little skill. I can fly like an idiot and my dice mods will bail me out.

Agree with Vineheart 100%. In the end of the day Palp Aces have glaring flaws that you can use to beat them. They're action-dependent (and token-dependent) and thus prone to stress, blocking, denial, conner nets and anything that ignores green dice. On top of that all the PTL aces have very limited dials at their disposal. It's the repositioning that makes them so nimble but in order to reposition you need to be able to perform your actions in the first place. Of course a skilled player can pull off some crazy evasive maneuvers to avoid blocks or get in a superior position - that's what makes aces fun to play. But it's hardly a one sided affair and saying that only the ace player plays the game is ridiculous. Aces are strong but hardly unbeatable.

They aren't vulnerable to blocking though. If you bump a Soontir and he only has his naked 4 agility dice and Palpatine to defend with, there is a 48% of doing zero damage IF you get 3 hits.

You do realize that Soontir has all of his 2 speeds green, and can just 4 straight green right? Inquisitor similarly. Having to do a green one hard is not limiting.

Conner Nets? Autoblaster weapons? Hot garbage against everything that isn't worth 11.666... per damage. When one player can turn blank blank focus on 3 agility dice to 4 evade results, only one player is actually playing the game.

I've won pretty much all of my games with my Juke Stealth Device x7 Vessery, Inquisitor, FCS Palp Shuttle list that weren't against the one guy running a ~50 point Crackshot Bossk party bus purely to hard counter Acewings. It's OP as **** and requires little skill. I can fly like an idiot and my dice mods will bail me out.

If it isn't fun to fly and you're not actually playing, what's the point? Winning a game is worthless when the game itself is neither fun nor challenging, in my opinion.

Depth charges.

Agree with Vineheart 100%. In the end of the day Palp Aces have glaring flaws that you can use to beat them. They're action-dependent (and token-dependent) and thus prone to stress, blocking, denial, conner nets and anything that ignores green dice. On top of that all the PTL aces have very limited dials at their disposal. It's the repositioning that makes them so nimble but in order to reposition you need to be able to perform your actions in the first place. Of course a skilled player can pull off some crazy evasive maneuvers to avoid blocks or get in a superior position - that's what makes aces fun to play. But it's hardly a one sided affair and saying that only the ace player plays the game is ridiculous. Aces are strong but hardly unbeatable.

They aren't vulnerable to blocking though. If you bump a Soontir and he only has his naked 4 agility dice and Palpatine to defend with, there is a 48% of doing zero damage IF you get 3 hits.

You do realize that Soontir has all of his 2 speeds green, and can just 4 straight green right? Inquisitor similarly. Having to do a green one hard is not limiting.

Conner Nets? Autoblaster weapons? Hot garbage against everything that isn't worth 11.666... per damage. When one player can turn blank blank focus on 3 agility dice to 4 evade results, only one player is actually playing the game.

I've won pretty much all of my games with my Juke Stealth Device x7 Vessery, Inquisitor, FCS Palp Shuttle list that weren't against the one guy running a ~50 point Crackshot Bossk party bus purely to hard counter Acewings. It's OP as **** and requires little skill. I can fly like an idiot and my dice mods will bail me out.

If it isn't fun to fly and you're not actually playing, what's the point? Winning a game is worthless when the game itself is neither fun nor challenging, in my opinion.

You can have fun on the meta level, winning a tournament or beating an established list just in the listbuilding phase (which is luckily getting harder again after wave 8).

Theres other ways to deal with Soontir than trying to take him out asap.

Ever thought of forcing a disengage? He has to do green moves or he is screwed, force him to do a green move in your favor i.e. rocketing past you or flying off to the side so he has no shot anyway. When the aces disengage they take 2turns or so to get back in the fight because they CANNOT kturn or risk getting sniped.

Agree with Vineheart 100%. In the end of the day Palp Aces have glaring flaws that you can use to beat them. They're action-dependent (and token-dependent) and thus prone to stress, blocking, denial, conner nets and anything that ignores green dice. On top of that all the PTL aces have very limited dials at their disposal. It's the repositioning that makes them so nimble but in order to reposition you need to be able to perform your actions in the first place. Of course a skilled player can pull off some crazy evasive maneuvers to avoid blocks or get in a superior position - that's what makes aces fun to play. But it's hardly a one sided affair and saying that only the ace player plays the game is ridiculous. Aces are strong but hardly unbeatable.

They aren't vulnerable to blocking though. If you bump a Soontir and he only has his naked 4 agility dice and Palpatine to defend with, there is a 48% of doing zero damage IF you get 3 hits.

You do realize that Soontir has all of his 2 speeds green, and can just 4 straight green right? Inquisitor similarly. Having to do a green one hard is not limiting.

Conner Nets? Autoblaster weapons? Hot garbage against everything that isn't worth 11.666... per damage. When one player can turn blank blank focus on 3 agility dice to 4 evade results, only one player is actually playing the game.

I've won pretty much all of my games with my Juke Stealth Device x7 Vessery, Inquisitor, FCS Palp Shuttle list that weren't against the one guy running a ~50 point Crackshot Bossk party bus purely to hard counter Acewings. It's OP as **** and requires little skill. I can fly like an idiot and my dice mods will bail me out.

If it isn't fun to fly and you're not actually playing, what's the point? Winning a game is worthless when the game itself is neither fun nor challenging, in my opinion.

God mode is fun.

I think the U-wing Fighter from Rogue One will be the counter to U-boats.

Not to beat them on the play-mat but to make people stop saying 'u-boat".

When one player can turn blank blank focus on 3 agility dice to 4 evade results, only one player is actually playing the game.

No, it only means that fully tokened up Soontir backed by Palp is almost impossible to hit at range 3. Not much of a revelation. If you try killing him this way and expect any result other than a miss, then I'm not surprised you're frustrated. Just don't base your strategy on an attack that has 94.7% chance of failure.

Now, if you proved that you have no tools to significantly increase your chances of scoring a hit vs an ace, you'd have point - such a game would be wildly imbalanced and you could genuinely claim that only one player stands a chance. However, that is obviously not true. Range 3 with tokens is the perfect situation for aces - it's where they're at their strongest. Just don't play to your opponent's strengths and suddenly the game is far less one-sided. For Soontir, the trade-off for being almost invulnerable in some situations is that he can go down to a single good shot in a bad situation. Just make sure you can create some bad situations for him. You really do have the tools to do that. And if you can't, it means you've been outplayed. If it was one-sided, you only have yourself to blame.

When one player can turn blank blank focus on 3 agility dice to 4 evade results, only one player is actually playing the game.

Again, people thinking in a vacuum for some reason assuming Soontir is always fully tokened, capable of using autos, and has palp behind him.

This is why people think palpaces are immortal. One ship CANNOT beat that combo unless he gets 4+ hits and Soontir rolls solid blanks on 4/5 dice.

Again, thinking as an entire list, if you forced soontir to do such an evade, he has NOTHING LEFT except raw dice rolls for your other ships.

Oh wait you probably dived for range1 to get extra dice and he dodged 1-2 of your ships. Which is why you DONT get that close, because its really hard to arcdodge at a distance.

6 Z-95. 5 Equiped with missile. 1 with tracer.

When one player can turn blank blank focus on 3 agility dice to 4 evade results, only one player is actually playing the game.

No, it only means that fully tokened up Soontir backed by Palp is almost impossible to hit at range 3. Not much of a revelation. If you try killing him this way and expect any result other than a miss, then I'm not surprised you're frustrated. Just don't base your strategy on an attack that has 94.7% chance of failure.

Now, if you proved that you have no tools to significantly increase your chances of scoring a hit vs an ace, you'd have point - such a game would be wildly imbalanced and you could genuinely claim that only one player stands a chance. However, that is obviously not true. Range 3 with tokens is the perfect situation for aces - it's where they're at their strongest. Just don't play to your opponent's strengths and suddenly the game is far less one-sided. For Soontir, the trade-off for being almost invulnerable in some situations is that he can go down to a single good shot in a bad situation. Just make sure you can create some bad situations for him. You really do have the tools to do that. And if you can't, it means you've been outplayed. If it was one-sided, you only have yourself to blame.

Last time I played, it was my Palp Aces squad against a Dengar Manaroo variant with Advanced Proton Torpedoes.

I flew my stealth Device x7 Vessery right into range 1 of Dengar. He fired his APT, scored 5 hits. I rolled blank blank focus evade. He zuckussed, and I rolled the same result. I took one damage on Vessery after Palpatine and Evade and focus. It's no wonder my friend has been talking more and more about selling his stuff.

You can fly like a complete dumb ass and your dice mods will carry you.

Imperial player greed knows no bounds. "The tradeoff for being almost invlunernable in some situations is that he can go down to a single good shot in a bad situation." *steams blows out of both ears* This ******* place is unbelievable sometimes.

When one player can turn blank blank focus on 3 agility dice to 4 evade results, only one player is actually playing the game.

My brain doesn't work as well as some of you guys when it comes to theory-crafting and "seeing" things. I usually have to play a game or two before I see how good something is - or isn't. I'm asking this, then, because I honestly don't know: but how does a blank blank focus become 4 evades? I'm having trouble seeing and grasping this.

EDIT: Nevermind. It was somewhat answered a post or two above.

this is why you l2feedback array

When one player can turn blank blank focus on 3 agility dice to 4 evade results, only one player is actually playing the game.

No, it only means that fully tokened up Soontir backed by Palp is almost impossible to hit at range 3. Not much of a revelation. If you try killing him this way and expect any result other than a miss, then I'm not surprised you're frustrated. Just don't base your strategy on an attack that has 94.7% chance of failure.

Now, if you proved that you have no tools to significantly increase your chances of scoring a hit vs an ace, you'd have point - such a game would be wildly imbalanced and you could genuinely claim that only one player stands a chance. However, that is obviously not true. Range 3 with tokens is the perfect situation for aces - it's where they're at their strongest. Just don't play to your opponent's strengths and suddenly the game is far less one-sided. For Soontir, the trade-off for being almost invulnerable in some situations is that he can go down to a single good shot in a bad situation. Just make sure you can create some bad situations for him. You really do have the tools to do that. And if you can't, it means you've been outplayed. If it was one-sided, you only have yourself to blame.

Last time I played, it was my Palp Aces squad against a Dengar Manaroo variant with Advanced Proton Torpedoes.

I flew my stealth Device x7 Vessery right into range 1 of Dengar. He fired his APT, scored 5 hits. I rolled blank blank focus evade. He zuckussed, and I rolled the same result. I took one damage on Vessery after Palpatine and Evade and focus. It's no wonder my friend has been talking more and more about selling his stuff.

You can fly like a complete dumb ass and your dice mods will carry you.

Imperial player greed knows no bounds. "The tradeoff for being almost invlunernable in some situations is that he can go down to a single good shot in a bad situation." *steams blows out of both ears* This ******* place is unbelievable sometimes.

The problem is more a matter of many dominant lists having only one big damage dealer. If you only have one good shot at a Palp- and token-backed ace, it should be no surprise that you will have a hard pumping damage through.

If they had been flying something that could have taken two mean shots in the same round, then all of a sudden you are only rolling naked green dice. We all know how phenomenal those are. That's why I like my Bossk/Kath list. Flown well, you can easily have two massively hard-hitting shots in each round. I don't care who you are; unless you have amazing and sustained good luck with your dice, you're not going to walk out of two fully-modified 3- or 4-die attacks unscathed.

I do agree with you that Palp-aces are *extremely* powerful, and very generous to low-skill flying, but they can't always win against every archetype. They're not *completely* idiot-proof, and if its opponent can consistently out-fly a Palp-backed list, eventually Palpatine's luck will fizzle. Plus, as the game continues to expand, there will be plenty of great options to counter it in time. The classic TIE swarm may not have won worlds, but it has been a brutally competitive archetype for the entirety of the game's life. Palp-aces will fade and find equilibrium in time.

When one player can turn blank blank focus on 3 agility dice to 4 evade results, only one player is actually playing the game.

No, it only means that fully tokened up Soontir backed by Palp is almost impossible to hit at range 3. Not much of a revelation. If you try killing him this way and expect any result other than a miss, then I'm not surprised you're frustrated. Just don't base your strategy on an attack that has 94.7% chance of failure.

Now, if you proved that you have no tools to significantly increase your chances of scoring a hit vs an ace, you'd have point - such a game would be wildly imbalanced and you could genuinely claim that only one player stands a chance. However, that is obviously not true. Range 3 with tokens is the perfect situation for aces - it's where they're at their strongest. Just don't play to your opponent's strengths and suddenly the game is far less one-sided. For Soontir, the trade-off for being almost invulnerable in some situations is that he can go down to a single good shot in a bad situation. Just make sure you can create some bad situations for him. You really do have the tools to do that. And if you can't, it means you've been outplayed. If it was one-sided, you only have yourself to blame.

Last time I played, it was my Palp Aces squad against a Dengar Manaroo variant with Advanced Proton Torpedoes.

I flew my stealth Device x7 Vessery right into range 1 of Dengar. He fired his APT, scored 5 hits. I rolled blank blank focus evade. He zuckussed, and I rolled the same result. I took one damage on Vessery after Palpatine and Evade and focus. It's no wonder my friend has been talking more and more about selling his stuff.

You can fly like a complete dumb ass and your dice mods will carry you.

Imperial player greed knows no bounds. "The tradeoff for being almost invlunernable in some situations is that he can go down to a single good shot in a bad situation." *steams blows out of both ears* This ******* place is unbelievable sometimes.

And before you label me a greedy imp player (another common excuse for you), know that I'm primary Rebel and have never flown Palpaces (lost and beat them on numerous occasions, though).

When one player can turn blank blank focus on 3 agility dice to 4 evade results, only one player is actually playing the game.

My brain doesn't work as well as some of you guys when it comes to theory-crafting and "seeing" things. I usually have to play a game or two before I see how good something is - or isn't. I'm asking this, then, because I honestly don't know: but how does a blank blank focus become 4 evades? I'm having trouble seeing and grasping this.

EDIT: Nevermind. It was somewhat answered a post or two above.

Don't feel bad, when it first happened to me I was stunned also.

Another reason why I just fly power squadrons is because I'm done outplaying the **** out of someone with 4 T-65's and 4 R7 astromechs only to have a 30 minute end game where a 35 point Soontir eventually solos down two full health R7 protected T-65's.

I'm done playing crackswarm and having Poe regenerate a dozen shields against the 3 remaining TIE (FO) Fighters and ultimately win the game.

I'm done getting better against Poe and realizing my mistake, only to then face Super Dash + Poe and automatically lose.

I'm just playing power squadrons from now on. A friend who likes to play Dash Ghost told me, "Why don't you play this, if a good player was playing this they'd dominate." I can't really bear to play turrets, but I fly Palp Aces and my APT Dengaroo variant now.

And if someone Never shows up again because they got utterly dominated by whatever blatantly broken **** I'm flying? Well they just need to get good and stop using hyperbole and complaining because the phantom fat turrets palp aces isn't broken and it takes a ton of skill to fly. Isn't that right everyone? Right?

And if someone Never shows up again because they got utterly dominated by whatever blatantly broken **** I'm flying? Well they just need to get good and stop using hyperbole and complaining because the phantom fat turrets palp aces isn't broken and it takes a ton of skill to fly. Isn't that right everyone? Right?

Just because something takes skill to be beaten doesn't mean that the opponent can't be frustrated when they lose against it. People have the right to be grumpy when they lose (especially if their opponent is being sh*tty -- again, fly casual).

The "git gud" argument is not the same thing as acknowledging that something *can* be beat. it is also not a justified response and not one we're advocating.

We are also not saying that Palp aces takes a huge amount of skill to fly. I acknowledged this when I said that I agree with you that it is very powerful. Again, just because something is beatable does not mean it is difficult to fly. It is difficult to fly against because it is probably the most flexible archetype there is. Its insane action economy and dice modification allows it to be effective almost no matter the situation.

Key word being almost.

And if someone Never shows up again because they got utterly dominated by whatever blatantly broken **** I'm flying? Well they just need to get good and stop using hyperbole and complaining because the phantom fat turrets palp aces isn't broken and it takes a ton of skill to fly. Isn't that right everyone? Right?

Just because something takes skill to be beaten doesn't mean that the opponent can't be frustrated when they lose against it. People have the right to be grumpy when they lose (especially if their opponent is being sh*tty -- again, fly casual).

The "git gud" argument is not the same thing as acknowledging that something *can* be beat. it is also not a justified response and not one we're advocating.

We are also not saying that Palp aces takes a huge amount of skill to fly. I acknowledged this when I said that I agree with you that it is very powerful. Again, just because something is beatable does not mean it is difficult to fly. It is difficult to fly against because it is probably the most flexible archetype there is. Its insane action economy and dice modification allows it to be effective almost no matter the situation.

Key word being almost.

That it's super game breaking but not super duper ultra game breaking?

You're **** right Palp Aces is difficult to beat because it's the most flexible archetype. It's the most flexible archetype because it's just good at everything .

It's better at jousting than Joustwing ships like the B-Wing.

It can arc dodge real well.

Its ships are flat invincible.

Its action economy is the best in the game.

It is great offensively.

If you agree with me, then what even is your argument?

That it's super game breaking but not super duper ultra game breaking?

My point is it's not game-breaking. Overpowered doesn't necessarily mean game-breaking, because it is not invincible. It can be beat. It is difficult, but not impossible. I've seen it happen. Just like U-boats can be beat.

Your argument seems to be "I don't want to lose to hyper-competitive lists anymore, so I'm only going to fly those lists." My only rebuttal to that is this:

Dude. Chill. Fly casual. High-level tournament play is not the only way to play X-Wing. Have some casual shenanigans. Fly friendly games with someone once in a while. Teach new people the game. Grow the community. Acknowledge something is OP without being pissy about it.

And if someone Never shows up again because they got utterly dominated by whatever blatantly broken **** I'm flying? Well they just need to get good and stop using hyperbole and complaining because the phantom fat turrets palp aces isn't broken and it takes a ton of skill to fly. Isn't that right everyone? Right?

Just because something takes skill to be beaten doesn't mean that the opponent can't be frustrated when they lose against it. People have the right to be grumpy when they lose (especially if their opponent is being sh*tty -- again, fly casual).

The "git gud" argument is not the same thing as acknowledging that something *can* be beat. it is also not a justified response and not one we're advocating.

We are also not saying that Palp aces takes a huge amount of skill to fly. I acknowledged this when I said that I agree with you that it is very powerful. Again, just because something is beatable does not mean it is difficult to fly. It is difficult to fly against because it is probably the most flexible archetype there is. Its insane action economy and dice modification allows it to be effective almost no matter the situation.

Key word being almost.

If you agree with me, then what even is your argument?

That it's super game breaking but not super duper ultra game breaking?

You're **** right Palp Aces is difficult to beat because it's the most flexible archetype. It's the most flexible archetype because it's just good at everything .

It's better at jousting than Joustwing ships like the B-Wing.

It can arc dodge real well.

Its ships are flat invincible.

Its action economy is the best in the game.

It is great offensively.

If you agree with me, then what even is your argument?

That it's super game breaking but not super duper ultra game breaking?

My point is it's not game-breaking. Overpowered doesn't necessarily mean game-breaking, because it is not invincible. It can be beat. It is difficult, but not impossible. I've seen it happen. Just like U-boats can be beat.

Your argument seems to be "I don't want to lose to hyper-competitive lists anymore, so I'm only going to fly those lists." My only rebuttal to that is this:

Dude. Chill. Fly casual. High-level tournament play is not the only way to play X-Wing. Have some casual shenanigans. Fly friendly games with someone once in a while. Teach new people the game. Grow the community. Acknowledge something is OP without being pissy about it.

How is the ability to turn blank blank focus on 3 evade dice into 4 evade results not game breaking? If you're playing a list where your ships are invincible, you've broken the game. You've turned off the ability for your opponent to damage your ships,and he might as well not play because his attacks are all worthless.

A fundamental aspect of this game is that offense is supposed to overcome defense. Apparently when they were testing this game, green dice were equal to red dice. This was changed because games went on forever. This is why green dice are inferior to red dice, and defensive upgrades like Flight Instructor or Sensor Jammer cost more and aren't as useful as Predator or Juke.

Of course, the defensive upgrades that are undercosted and always useful with no/bare restrictions like R2-D2, Autothrusters, C-3PO, and Palpatine dominate the game. If you just turn off the ability for your ships to ever die there is nothing your opponent can do. That's a fundamental aspect of the game that Palp Aces breaks.

And that's not even considering Palp Aces' arc dodging capabilities that largely ignore the maneuver dial aspect of the game.