There's an ongoing debate in my local group, the short of it is: can c-3po be used after zuckuss declares you must reroll evade dice.

The theory is, against zuckuss crew, merely wait to use c-3po until after zuckuss declares you must reroll your line green die. It was then suggested that this is impossible because "while rolling evade dice" is completely different than rerolling evade dice. Specifically "once a die has been rolled, the timing window is now closed, as that for cannot be rolled again. It can be rerolled" it's also been stated that this is very clearly defined within the rule book, but I can find no mention of rerolls being entirely different than rolls in general.

So what's the deal here? Is rolling sometimes not rolling?

No. C3PO is used when you initially roll your dice, and his addition or not of a roll happens at that point. Or at least that's the current consensus.

C3PO's added evade result is vulnerable to Zuckuss crew.

the card only be asks that I be rolling dice, which is valid during both my initial roll and after zuckuss has been used.

There is not mention of specific timing, just that dice are rolling.

I think that since in step 5 on the timing chart it says that the attacker modifies dice then the defender modifies dice that zuckuss crew would have to be applied before 3PO is applied.

3po may fall outside the regular timing window of mods due to the way he is worded, but the question here is do I get the choice to use him any time dice are rolling? There is no mention in the FAQ or rulebook that "while rolling" can't occur during a reroll.

3po may fall outside the regular timing window of mods due to the way he is worded, but the question here is do I get the choice to use him any time dice are rolling? There is no mention in the FAQ or rulebook that "while rolling" can't occur during a reroll.

There's no specific rule to this effect, but the rules definitely do distinguish rolling from rerolling (c.f. Heavy Laser Cannon and crits on rerolls, not to mention the lack of ability to reroll rerolled dice).

I've reported the consensus (C3PO happens as soon as the dice hit the table for the initial roll - any roll, including e.g. Lando crew) but there's no specific RAW or FAQ that says you *can't* use him on a reroll. It would probably be worth putting the question to the FFG rules support email address.

Rerolling defence dice, especially successful ones, was a pretty rare thing prior to Zuckuss, so it's not really surprising that it hasn't come up in detail before.

Ok, just actually read the 3PO card and I can see the problem I missed in my statement. There is the "before you roll" part that causes the problem. There is also the "once per round part" that can cause problems. If you don't declare 3PO before your first roll and get a blank then your opponent won't need to declare Zuckuss but if you do declare, get the guess right, add one evade, then your opponent will want to declare Zuckuss and the added evade is vulnerable.

The FAQ entry of the Heavy Laser Cannon indicates, that the re-roll is not the same as roll (HLC: you don't have to turn your <crits> to <hits> for the reroll). Based on that I would say that you cannot use C3PO for the Zuckuss reroll, but this issue worth a FAQ.

Ok, just actually read the 3PO card and I can see the problem I missed in my statement. There is the "before you roll" part that causes the problem. There is also the "once per round part" that can cause problems. If you don't declare 3PO before your first roll and get a blank then your opponent won't need to declare Zuckuss but if you do declare, get the guess right, add one evade, then your opponent will want to declare Zuckuss and the added evade is vulnerable.

Actually he meant the following:

1. defender does not use C3PO for the first roll, and roll some evades.

2. attacker uses Zuckuss

3. Can the defender use C3PO for the reroll?

Ok, just actually read the 3PO card and I can see the problem I missed in my statement. There is the "before you roll" part that causes the problem. There is also the "once per round part" that can cause problems. If you don't declare 3PO before your first roll and get a blank then your opponent won't need to declare Zuckuss but if you do declare, get the guess right, add one evade, then your opponent will want to declare Zuckuss and the added evade is vulnerable.

Actually he meant the following:

1. defender does not use C3PO for the first roll, and roll some evades.

2. attacker uses Zuckuss

3. Can the defender use C3PO for the reroll?

I understand what he was asking and I was referring back to my original statement that 3PO would have to happen after zuckuss due to the flow chart step 5 order. I then came up with a possible scenario where he would not declare 3PO prior to his roll have no evades so opponent would not declare zuckuss so no re-roll to have a chance to declare 3PO on. The second scenario I came up with means the 3PO result is re-rolled per zuckuss but he then can't use 3PO again due to the "once per round" limit. This was as much for my own thought process to work itself out as anything I am actually still new and end up being corrected on here a lot so I should probably stop saying what I think and just read.

I think you can, because you can use C3-PO not only during defense rolls, but also i.e. when rolling for Lando (crew).

I think you can, because you can use C3-PO not only during defense rolls, but also i.e. when rolling for Lando (crew).

Lando crew isn't a reroll, though. That's the point at issue - does 3PO work on rerolls.

Lando crew isn't relevant, 3PO definitely works on him.

I should probably stop saying what I think and just read.

I disagree. Keep posting your thoughts.

With the prevalence of Zuckuss, I'm surprised they didn't call his ability (and similar abilities) out in the timing chart.

Anyway, some notes about C-3PO that can further the discussion:

From FAQ:

1. Juke can be used to modify the <evade> result added by C-3PO .

2. When attacking with Autoblaster, the defender cannot cancel <hit> results with evade tokens or other added <evade> results, such as from C-3PO.

3. Adding or subtracting dice (i.e. Jan Ors) and canceling die results (i.e. Crack Shot) do not count as modifying dice. However, added die results ( C-3P0 , Advanced Targeting Computer, Accuracy Corrector, etc.) do *** count as modifying dice and cannot be used*** .

What does this mean? I've heard from a couple people/threads that C-3PO's ability might as well say (upon success) " Place an additional defense dice with an <evade> result showing into your defense dice results ". This is (in my opinion) confirmed with (1), as you'd have a <focus> result on the table that could be modified to with a <focus> token like the rest of your dice, and (3) - above.

Important distinction: The Jan Ors (pilot) reference above relates to 4(ii), below, and is NOT the same thing as C-3PO.

From Timing Chart:

Step 4. "Roll Defense Dice" step

i. Identify number of defense dice (from

Ship card)

ii. Resolve abilities that increase or

decrease the number of defense dice

(including Range Combat Bonus)

***Step C-3PO.***

Once per round, before you roll 1 or more

defense dice, you may guess aloud a number

of evade results. If you roll that many evade

results (before modifying dice), add 1 evade

result.

Step 5. "Modifying" Defense Dice step

These abilities include *** adding ***,

changing, and *** rerolling *** dice results.

Dice can be modified multiple times,

but each die can be rerolled only once.

i. Attacker resolves abilities that

modify defense dice <--- Zuckuss' ability

ii. Defender resolves abilities that

*** modify*** defense dice <--- C-3PO's ability triggers

Now, with the assumption that C-3PO is essentially adding a dice to the pool, his ability triggers in either Step 4. or Step 5(ii) - which, according to C-3PO's card text ("may"), is completely up to the player using it.

In conclusion, yes, it is my belief that C-3PO can trigger during 5(ii), if able and the player so chooses. Suck it, Zuckuss.

tl;dr

Look at From FAQ (3) and Step 5(ii).

Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again ~ Rulebook

If what you're doing is a reroll, I don't believe you can use C3P0. This seems like one of those situations where you have to use the game definitions, and not over complicate things.

Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again ~ Rulebook

If what you're doing is a reroll, I don't believe you can use C3P0. This seems like one of those situations where you have to use the game definitions, and not over complicate things.

I agree there is a distinction between roll and re-roll.

It all boils down to this: Is C-3PO relegated to rolls or rolls and re-rolls.

I think the fact that the FAQ calls C-3PO's ability "dice modification" means he triggers against Zuckuss. Also, I'd hate to see Zuckuss turn into another Omega Leader...

Has everybody missed that the card says before dice modifications? You can't use C-3PO during the modyfy defence dice step because that it will be after a dice modification.

I see the card text.

The FAQ clearly states that C-3PO is a "modifying dice" mechanic, so it doesn't fit nicely into the chart. Definitely something I'd like to see a ruling on.

Dice modifications do not always take place in the modify step. HLC is a prime example of this. C-3PO is also a dice modification but it takes place in the roll defence dice step.

Dice modifications do not always take place in the modify step.

Bingo.

The definition of "modification" only depends on what the effect does. When it happens is irrelevant.

The rulebook states only the default timing of dice modifications, for effects that don't specify when they're used. Modifications can occur at other times if the card or official clarification says so.

I think you can, because you can use C3-PO not only during defense rolls, but also i.e. when rolling for Lando (crew).

Lando crew isn't a reroll, though. That's the point at issue - does 3PO work on rerolls.

Lando crew isn't relevant, 3PO definitely works on him.

Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again ~ Rulebook

If what you're doing is a reroll, I don't believe you can use C3P0. This seems like one of those situations where you have to use the game definitions, and not over complicate things.

I agree there is a distinction between roll and re-roll.

It all boils down to this: Is C-3PO relegated to rolls or rolls and re-rolls.

I think the fact that the FAQ calls C-3PO's ability "dice modification" means he triggers against Zuckuss. Also, I'd hate to see Zuckuss turn into another Omega Leader...

Please, note that the definition of "reroll" says that you pick up and roll a die/dice.

This means, that you do roll a [defense] die. In other words: you take na item of green defense die and roll them. Every round, during one occasion of rolling green dice you may ask. The source / reason for rolling dice and the phase of the round is irrelevant.

Edit: typos.

Except that it isn't, because if it was then you would be able to reroll rerolls, and HLCs would turn rerolled crits to hits. Neither of which happens.

But as previously noted both sides have some reasonable arguments, so maybe someone should email in the rules query and we should wait for the FAQ.

No. The fact that you can reroll once is a rule. HLC, could have been as well errated to say: once per attack, after rolling your attack dice, change all Crit results to Hit results. Instead the FAQ'ed it which now creates a confusion (but hey, that days there were no more of such issues).

It is not the end of it and I may well be wrong... but HLC use: "After rolling your attack dices" and when you look at that, it may as well just mean the initial attack dice. This is worded like that to prevent confusion with any other attack dice roll, this make it clear it is for this attack.

If it was worded like C3P0: "If you roll 1 or more attack dice" then it would have meant any attack dice, Primary attack, Obstacle... and you clearly don't want that.

So, the different wording and the FAQ, point to HLC having a specific meaning, that have nothing to do with Roll versus Reroll.


Edit: What this mean is that the FAQ did not mean HLC do not apply to "Reroll", it mean HLC apply to one specific instance of roll.