Very valid points on Engine techs and ramming, but the solution sounds very much like your own fleet of highly maneuverable MC30s. Yes, the Rieekan player will have an enormously difficult time ramming them. MC30s are a fairly hard counter to the smaller ships, so that's not surprising. They can be outfitted to kill them in one shot and have the speed and maneuverability to avoid them. An ISD, even at speed 3, is going to have a very hard time avoiding that CR90.

Another option is to bring high-hull fleet and just take it. As long as these corvettes are out, the exchange benefits ISD player (as it also removes activations from Rieekan and makes it easier to target already activated ships). As a matter of fact my regional list originally was created as a direct counter to Rieekan.

Hmm... Depends very much on the upgrades. In a strictly-ramming scenario, a naked CR90B vs naked ISD-1 actually has a (very slight) advantage in that trade: 39pts/4hull < 110pts/11hull. That said, Motti on the ISD swings it back heavily in the ISD's favor. In practice, the value of the trade will actually come down to relative upgrade cost: whichever ship has the greater percent of its cost derived from upgrades is the loser.

That's why I don't do the ET cheese when I run Rieekan's corvettes: it kills your return on investment points-wise while simultaneously committing you to the outright trading strategy. SW-7, by contrast, not only improves your trade-up value significantly against the bigger, more hull-efficient ships, but is much easier and more reliable to use, and you retain the ramming option if the situation warrants it.

You also have this:

7 CR90Bs w/ET

2 GR-75

Rieekan

Let the ramming begin!

But it is not a random, mindless kind of build. It requires skill.

Change Rieeken, change demsu, change ramming, change ackbar, change Rhymer, change this, change that. Everyone needs to realize we all have our pet peeves with the game, but nothing is op, nothing is imbalanced. If it's been released it means it's undergone extensive play testing. Ffg doesn't miss when it comes to good mechanics in games. In the end we all hate something, but it usually just requires a new approach to deal with.

Change nothing.

That being said...

Rieekan only needs one nerf and I think we can all get behind it. We need an easier name to spell. Seriously, look at all the misspellings just in this thread.

When it comes down to it. So.eone who brings Rieekan and plays flawlessly gets little to nothing from his text. You only get a bonus when things go wrong. That is why i don't see him as overpowered.

Just start calling him Reebok.

I'm sure I've said this in another thread, but I'm just never going to be convinced that a 30pt commander who only works when your stuff is *already dead* is overpowered.

I will also throw this out: part of the problem with Rieekan is that most of the other rebel admirals currently are just not good for most fleets.

• MM has a place in very CR90 heavy fleets only (TRC runs counter to her on most other ships, and given TRC is so strong, this has an impact on her usage)
• Garm is a man without a fleet overall, as it's hard to find places where you want him over Rieekan and where you are running ships that fully leverage Garm
• Dodonna is really a commander for bomber builds, which are inefficient for rebels right now in non-aces configurations (check again post flotillas)
• Ackbar again only wants a narrow slice of ships (side shooters)

So what this means is that the overwhelming majority of rebel lists SHOULD run Rieekan right now, and his ability is probably the easiest to leverage in most situations (which is just overall good), unless you play the perfect game where you lose no named squadrons and no ships, in which case good work buddy, you're going to win anyways.

With that said, I have high hopes for the general applicability of Cracken and Madine to more fleets, so I would argue before we really start thinking hard about Rieekan, we should let the rebel commander meta develop a bit more.

Edit: Also, let me echo Paul for a minute here by saying Rieekan is good, and you do have to think about him. His ability matters, and he impacts the game. Then again, so do Screed and Motti when they are properly used, and I don't think either one of them should be nerfed.

I'll have a response to this thread later when I have an opportunity to properly type, but I'm glad this thread is getting done serious discussion.

I will state that I believe the Rieekan list troubles don't just affect my list, and that's because Rieekan affects both ships and squadrons for the entirety of the turn. Meaning that successfully destroying a ship or squadron doesn't typically have a negative impact on the function of Rieekan's fleet.

I also disagree strongly with the suggestion that attacking Rieekan early in the game is a valid strategy. Rieekan can be placed on any speedy ship and becomes effectively untouchable for the remainder of the game with even moderately thoughtful piloting.

part of the problem with Rieekan is that most of the other rebel admirals currently are just not good for most fleets.

I think it mirrors Imperial situation with Motti: he's a go to Admiral with a useful ability that's easy to use, so unless you're running black-dice heavy fleet (that calls for Screed) you're likely to end up with him (as Tarkin and Vader are expensive and Ozzel is less useful)

I'd say that one of the things about Motti that mirrors Rieekan is that there isn't much opportunity cost.

Unless you have a genius plan to not get shot at, both will make your lists more durable and possibly buy you an extra activation or two. Both have a single major offensive counterpart, those being Ackbar and Screed, who will make certain ships more offensively powerful.

Lol, it can't be more than three months or so since I was vigorously defending Rieekan's value and all I would see was these opinions:

I'm sure I've said this in another thread, but I'm just never going to be convinced that a 30pt commander who only works when your stuff is *already dead* is overpowered.

I'm waiting with popcorn bowl locked and loaded for the "nerf H9's!" threads after the first couple wave 3 tournaments...

Pre-emptively nerf sensor teams, plz

Pre-emptively nerf sensor teams, plz

It sounds like an overkill, the better balance tweak would be to nerf Ginkapo, this should be sufficient

Yes, Yes. Nerf Ginkapo.

Because Im takin' Sensor Teams to Regionals next week....

I don't feel that Rieekan is overpowered. He's prominent, and he may feel overpowered, because he's the easiest counter to the powerhouse Demolisher and Rhymer.

My feelings on those cards are a little lengthy, but primarily as an Imperial player Id' be more than happy to have those cards nerfed if there was a reason to take other things in the Empire. VSDs are too slow, ISDs are too pricey, and our Interceptors and TIE fighters die too quickly to the better balanced rebel squadrons. Yavaris X-Wings can mulch a large amount of TIEs set to destroy them, and TIE FTR/INT can die pretty fast to three rounds of anti-squadron fire out of starships.

So, Empire is forced to take Demo and Rhymer in successful lists because everything else feels fail in the face of the better balanced Rebels. I really wish it wasn't this way, and I have hopes for Wave 3/4 perhaps shaking up the meta and maybe making non-bomber Imperial fighters worth taking again, but we'll see.

And I agree with the notion of making those squadron defense cards have longer range to stop Rhymer. If capital anti-fighter defenses were better, it would help making big ships viable. I don't feel that way now though, because I feel I can't kit out a capital ship with fighter defenses because such cards would be useless against the mobile Rhymerballs forever staying out of range.

So a common complaint I am hearing looking through these responses, and I appreciate the concern, is that this only affects "my" Imperial list.

I respectfully disagree.

Whether playing a DeMSU list, Rhymerball squadrons, triple VSDs, or some combination thereof, nearly all Imperial ships are designed to deal burst damage that eliminates or cripples an enemy ship before it strikes back. The only two that are not designed for burst damage output are the Interdictor and the Gozanti Flotillas, which are focused primarily on fleet support roles. This also extends to Imperial squadrons, which are deigned to burst damage Rebel squadrons and ships before being destroyed. Burst damage to destroy enemy threats is and has been since the Core Set a primary Imperial survival mechanic, especially as they do not have Defensive Retrofits (ISD2 excepted, naturally).

Comparatively, Rebel ships are largely designed to engage in a drawn out attrition battle, hitting with a withering hail of lower power attacks. This is slightly changing with the addition of the MC30 and Liberty-Class cruiser, but the majority of their ships are designed to either plink away with small consistent attacks or to guide in rebel bombers to do the same. In the anti-squadron game, they like to tie up enemy squadrons with high-hull, high damage squadrons that will last several turns of prolonged combat and fly away still functionally capable of threatening additional ships and squadrons.

First off, let's be realistic: Riekaan is a response to Demolisher, a ship I myself have stated is overpowered and which has a negative effect on the game meta since its launch. It is nearly impossible to justify taking a Gladiator Star Destroyer without this game-altering upgrade. And I think that Demolisher is a ship that needs to be seriously reexamined for rebalancing, as it is now deforming the game around its inclusion.

Rieekan has turned this dynamic on its head in the effort to make Demolisher less of a relevant threat. But with all Imperial releases so far focusing on burst damage effects, Rieekan is effectively nullifying the damage output of all Imperial ships and squadrons. And this is making all Imperial ships and squadrons far more vulnerable to return fire they are often designed to avoid or shrug off by taking out critical threats before they can respond.

I think you are overstating his effect. He doesn't nullify the damage, the damage is still there and the ship will still be dead if you did enough damage. Also to be fair, he effects Rebel on Rebel engagements just as much. He requires a different play style to counter him, doing the same thing you would do against Ackbar or Dodonna for example won't cut it against him.

As for your points about the fighters, Rebel fighters are better balanced, they are supposed to be based on lore. Imperial Squadrons are based of of weight of numbers, quantity over quality. I disagree with your assessment that they were designed to be burst damage. That's not accurate imo.

In that case, Imperial squadrons are AWFUL at outnumbering Rebels, because they basically become free points against most Rebel squadrons.

Imperial squadrons are supposed to rush in on Rebels and attack first to even up the numbers before getting shot down. That's how Imperials are supposed to outnumber them, as a big swarm that takes down enemies while losing units. When you make it impossible to kill enemy units before they shoot back, and they roll enough damage to eliminate you in one go, the numbers advantage is immediately removed. Basically, the trade has not occurred, or in the case of Escorts has occurred drastically in the opponent's favor.

Rebel non A-wing/YT2400 squads reallly suck without a **** ton of support and the rebel design space in this game is really weird and skewy, imo which results in the need for admirals like Rieekan.

I wish I never used the word brainless.

I just meant I can outplay a Rieek and he still does what he wants that turn, and thats not fun for me.

If Rieekan is still doing what he wants to you that turn, you didn't outplay him - the Rieekan player outplayed you.

Rieekan takes a different mindset to play as and against so if you go in on either side playing like "normal" you're going to get tripped up. Good advice has already been given in this thread about how to deal with him. I'm going to reiterate that avoiding the zombie demolition derby clog in the middle of the table come roughly turn 3 is extremely important against the CR90B SW7 spam Rieekan fleets that are common around me (usually 3-4 CR90s + some mixture of MC30s and MC80 Defiance). You can avoid the clog in numerous ways, such as by being very mindful of the varying speeds so you can brake just short of the clog or shoot past it, going around the sides, or moving perpendicular to it while firing long-ranged broadsides. Getting stuck in the clog means getting double-arced by SW7 CR90Bs while smashing into zombie roadblocks and it becomes a hellacious meat grinder.

Another way Rieekan trips people up is in target selection. Simply throwing the most dice at every target isn't always the wisest course of action against Rieekan (this is also the case in "normal" games but much moreso with Rieekan). If it's nearing the end of a turn and I need to choose between a juicy attack on an enemy ship that won't kill it or a moderate to weak attack on a crippled ship that will probably kill it, the kill shot wins out. In a "normal" game you could content yourself with something else taking out the crippled ship next turn before it caused too much trouble, but with Rieekan that just won't work.

How is losing a ship outplaying someone? Its just using the admiral's ability to make the most of it...

Your opponent was playing while keeping Rieekan's ability in mind. You weren't. You lost. You deserved that loss. If you don't keep the enemy commander's ability in mind at all times while playing, then you're going to have a bad time. It's like playing versus Ackbar and not constantly being mindful of how he works. I've seen it happen numerous times (especially in the early days of MkII with the extremely dull conga line fleets) and it means the guy who is keeping Ackbar in mind (the guy using him) absolutely trashes the guy who isn't (his opponent).

Once you begin to focus on how Rieekan changes activation order and risk-benefit analyses for your opponent compared to more conventional commanders, you'll begin to see how it all fits together and how to pick it apart. Again, there has been a lot of good advice in this thread already that can be used. If you only view Rieekan as a way for less skilled players to push their fleet forward and still win when they shouldn't, you're not taking him seriously enough and you're going to keep getting punished for it.

In that case, Imperial squadrons are AWFUL at outnumbering Rebels, because they basically become free points against most Rebel squadrons.

Imperial squadrons are supposed to rush in on Rebels and attack first to even up the numbers before getting shot down. That's how Imperials are supposed to outnumber them, as a big swarm that takes down enemies while losing units. When you make it impossible to kill enemy units before they shoot back, and they roll enough damage to eliminate you in one go, the numbers advantage is immediately removed. Basically, the trade has not occurred, or in the case of Escorts has occurred drastically in the opponent's favor.

On one hand I agree with you that the Imperial squadrons are awful, but I disagree that they are supposed to rush in.

Rebel non A-wing/YT2400 squads reallly suck without a **** ton of support and the rebel design space in this game is really weird and skewy, imo which results in the need for admirals like Rieekan.

What? I think the X-wing is still the best all round squadron in the game. When I play rebels I also really like the B-wing. The only rebel base squadron that I would say sucks is the Y-wing, and that is only in comparison to the rest. The base squadrons that they have are so good, that I can not remember if I have ever used the Scum with them. I wish my squadrons were even close to as good as what the rebels got.

I play Empire most of the time, and you want to talk about sucky squadrons, just take a look at the basic TiE or the Interceptor. Total junk not worth ever putting on the table.

I wish I never used the word brainless.

I just meant I can outplay a Rieek and he still does what he wants that turn, and thats not fun for me.

If Rieekan is still doing what he wants to you that turn, you didn't outplay him - the Rieekan player outplayed you.

Rieekan takes a different mindset to play as and against so if you go in on either side playing like "normal" you're going to get tripped up. Good advice has already been given in this thread about how to deal with him. I'm going to reiterate that avoiding the zombie demolition derby clog in the middle of the table come roughly turn 3 is extremely important against the CR90B SW7 spam Rieekan fleets that are common around me (usually 3-4 CR90s + some mixture of MC30s and MC80 Defiance). You can avoid the clog in numerous ways, such as by being very mindful of the varying speeds so you can brake just short of the clog or shoot past it, going around the sides, or moving perpendicular to it while firing long-ranged broadsides. Getting stuck in the clog means getting double-arced by SW7 CR90Bs while smashing into zombie roadblocks and it becomes a hellacious meat grinder.

Another way Rieekan trips people up is in target selection. Simply throwing the most dice at every target isn't always the wisest course of action against Rieekan (this is also the case in "normal" games but much moreso with Rieekan). If it's nearing the end of a turn and I need to choose between a juicy attack on an enemy ship that won't kill it or a moderate to weak attack on a crippled ship that will probably kill it, the kill shot wins out. In a "normal" game you could content yourself with something else taking out the crippled ship next turn before it caused too much trouble, but with Rieekan that just won't work.

How is losing a ship outplaying someone? Its just using the admiral's ability to make the most of it...

Your opponent was playing while keeping Rieekan's ability in mind. You weren't. You lost. You deserved that loss. If you don't keep the enemy commander's ability in mind at all times while playing, then you're going to have a bad time. It's like playing versus Ackbar and not constantly being mindful of how he works. I've seen it happen numerous times (especially in the early days of MkII with the extremely dull conga line fleets) and it means the guy who is keeping Ackbar in mind (the guy using him) absolutely trashes the guy who isn't (his opponent).

Once you begin to focus on how Rieekan changes activation order and risk-benefit analyses for your opponent compared to more conventional commanders, you'll begin to see how it all fits together and how to pick it apart. Again, there has been a lot of good advice in this thread already that can be used. If you only view Rieekan as a way for less skilled players to push their fleet forward and still win when they shouldn't, you're not taking him seriously enough and you're going to keep getting punished for it.

Echoing Snipafist's point about not taking Rieekan seriously enough, and as one of THOSE local Rieekan players (sometimes you just want to field 4 MC30s, alright!), i can fully agree with his assessment (bolded for emphasis)

I've had good luck with him, and sometimes you say to yourself that you're sacrificing a ship NEXT turn to deliver a heck of a hit to an enemy. I've used SW7 CR90Bs to block and prevent ISDs from getting onto the station to heal the damage they're taking, i've slow-rolled MC30s forward into medium range on your ISD-II so i can get 4 attacks with them in a row (last this turn front and side, move forward at speed 1 and engage again), i've driven MC80s into other ships just to deal them more damage for future turns/when my squadron component from the Yavaris decides it's Scurrg attack time, i've seen attack ships on fire off the coast of (wrong movie)

Someone (Snipafist maybe, haha) said to me once that you can play Rieekan as a noob, or if you get good enough with him you can almost write a Master's thesis on how to play well with him. His ability is VERY good and can help you IF YOU USE IT SMARTLY (Heaven knows i've screwed that up enough, haha)

But to get to the original point of the thread: No, he does not need a rebalancing. If you use his ability for Unique squadrons, they cost more points. If you're using his ability for ships, they still blow up eventually, and you're not adding any way to manipulate the dice you fire out of the side a la Ackbar, nor are you dodging better from Mon Mothma. His ability takes a while to master, but when it clicks, it CLICKS.

I play Empire most of the time, and you want to talk about sucky squadrons, just take a look at the basic TiE or the Interceptor. Total junk not worth ever putting on the table.

What? No, they can be good if you use them right. How many are you bringing at a time? Our local meta usually says around 60-64 points of squadrons min. Which means 8 squadrons of TIEs. That can kill a LOT of stuff, but you have to activate them and all, via carrier VSD or flotillas or ISD.

And before anyone throws out the "but what if the other guy has 8 YT2400s?" question, think of it like this. If you can neuter his 8 YT2400s for a turn or two (dont rush your TIEs in, use waves! In the words of the immortal Zapp Brannigan, send wave after wave of your own at them until they reach their predetermined kill limit turn 6), you're doing good. Did you not occupy them 6 turns? That happens. Did you prevent them from attacking your ships for 2-3 more turns than expected? Then you actually won the squadron game, as (i assume) you spent the rest of the time with your ships trying to kill his ships.

TIEs do TIE up the other guy, and even if they die, who cares? You're the Empire, they're infinitely replaceable! Just throw more at the other guy next game!

Change Rieeken, change demsu, change ramming, change ackbar, change Rhymer, change this, change that. Everyone needs to realize we all have our pet peeves with the game, but nothing is op, nothing is imbalanced. If it's been released it means it's undergone extensive play testing. Ffg doesn't miss when it comes to good mechanics in games. In the end we all hate something, but it usually just requires a new approach to deal with.

Change nothing.

FFG makes some misses when developing games. They are usually good, but they do have serious misses. See cloaking in XWMG. Their refusal to errata a card makes it so the solution is almost always power creep or a hard counter.

That being said...

Rieekan only needs one nerf and I think we can all get behind it. We need an easier name to spell. Seriously, look at all the misspellings just in this thread.

When it comes down to it. So.eone who brings Rieekan and plays flawlessly gets little to nothing from his text. You only get a bonus when things go wrong. That is why i don't see him as overpowered.

Demolisher is not required but it helps, Rhymer is nice but not required. Rieekan while good is not the "best"

It is skill based. Thecactusman17 has stated that he can't beat Rieekan, most likely his Tactics need to change. His priorities need to change.

Experience in Armada is far more important than any upgrade or ship.

I play Empire most of the time, and you want to talk about sucky squadrons, just take a look at the basic TiE or the Interceptor. Total junk not worth ever putting on the table.

What? No, they can be good if you use them right. How many are you bringing at a time? Our local meta usually says around 60-64 points of squadrons min. Which means 8 squadrons of TIEs. That can kill a LOT of stuff, but you have to activate them and all, via carrier VSD or flotillas or ISD.

And before anyone throws out the "but what if the other guy has 8 YT2400s?" question, think of it like this. If you can neuter his 8 YT2400s for a turn or two (dont rush your TIEs in, use waves! In the words of the immortal Zapp Brannigan, send wave after wave of your own at them until they reach their predetermined kill limit turn 6), you're doing good. Did you not occupy them 6 turns? That happens. Did you prevent them from attacking your ships for 2-3 more turns than expected? Then you actually won the squadron game, as (i assume) you spent the rest of the time with your ships trying to kill his ships.

TIEs do TIE up the other guy, and even if they die, who cares? You're the Empire, they're infinitely replaceable! Just throw more at the other guy next game!

I have tried all sorts of numbers (I have two starters, and five fighter packs), but numbers does not make a difference. You either have to spread them out so far they can not support each other, or at best they get one attack and then are killed by all the two anti-squadron ships. I can not remember the last time that my hull three fighters lasted more than one turn. So I am sticking with that they are junk, not worth the points you are just giving to the other player.

Hmmm....

8x YT2400's= 128pts, 32x blue dice, 8x black dice (Antiship), Speed 4, 48x hull points, Rogue.

16x TIE Fighters= 128pts, 48x blue dice, 16x blue dice (Antiship),Speed 4, 48x hull points, Swarm.

12x TIE Interceptors= 132pts, 48x blue dice, 16x blue dice (Antiship),Speed 5, 36x hull points, Swarm. Counter 2.

If law of averages is in effect then...

It will take 2x YT2400's to take out 1x TIE

It will take 4x TIE Fighters to take out 1x YT2400 (That is discounting the Swarm keyword)

It will take 3x TIE Interceptors to take out 1x YT2400 (That is discounting the Swarm and Counter keyword)

Initially the YT2400's will have the advantage due to the Rogue keyword, but once they all are engaged, the odds leans towards the TIE's advantage, due to the Swarm and Counter keywords.

My overall assessment is that pointwise they are roughly all equally strong, they deciding factor will be who activates first and when, which is a factor that is partly decided by the skill of the two players facing each other.