*** Now, if the Makashi Duelist doesn't use a saberstaff, then he's not doing it right***

*** Also, the Makashi Duelist could use another kind of Crystal with different bonus, limited to Critical 2 and still pull off huge crits... the Ataru Striker couldn't do that***

Makashi Duelist doesn't have to build a Lightsaber with Critical 1 to pull off Huge Criticals.... unlike the Ataru Striker

However, Makashi isn't thematically made to be used with a saberstaff and most likely is made to use a Critical 1 saber. When you have to go away from the theme of Makashi to make it work, I think that there's a problem.

Makashi works very well with a Shoto and Basic saber though, the difficulty increase is unfortunate but that accurate quality is lovely, especially if the weapons are Paired. I seriously hope some nice Sabers/Crystals/Attachments come in the Mystic book to help the Duelist in this regard. And the Defensive Training talent helps a bunch even if the ranks don't stack.

I just realised Finish would also add 10 to Critical rolls from incapacitating the target as well. So HBS can add 10 to one crit for 1 Force Pip, MF can add 10 to up to 3 Crits for 1 Force Pip... Yes in its most basic form HBS is a more versatile version, but it trades peak power for broad utility.

On that, I'd argue that once the opponent is incapacitated, anything extra is just overkill. A talent shouldn't be balanced/costed according to how hard it helps you kick them when they're already down

Just think about that attack by a Duelest that hits twice with a linked 1 Lightsaber for 2 advantage (or a triumph), then Crits twice for 2 more advantage, and because it's a finish move the target gains a third Crit for exceeding their Wound Threshold. With 2 Force pips and no other factors such as vicious or previous critical injuries the 3 rolls will look like this:

+20, +30, +40

I think the fundamental disconnect I have here is that I believe a Duelist should not have to scramble to get a lightsaber with linked or an extra lightsaber to get some use out of their signature Talent. I fully agree that a shoto + lightsaber could work within the style of the Form (parrying dagger and rapier), but disagree that it should be required for the form to work since our prime example of Makashi never used one. The focus of Makashi centers around handling opponents one at a time, not exhausting yourself, and finishing them off with a single, precise hit that decisively ends the battle. The problem is that it fails in the last department; it doesn't get anything special to finish someone off unless they use a very specific equipment list.

In essence, what Finish is intended to let you do is finish off an enemy who may still be at full health with a single, well-placed strike. It's not meant to take an enemy down in a rain of blows, that's Ataru's gig.

Agreed. But I would say that most Specialisations really get a lot out of specific gear, or Talents that exist in other Specialisations. Ataru doesn't need Force Rating 3, but when you're able to land 4 blows with a Saber in a single attack its devastating. Anything that can increase the number of advantage an Ataru generates is helpful, increasing damage too. Makashi doesn't need special equipment to maximise its Finish move, it works just as well with an Ancient Sword as a Basic Lightsaber (in fact your probably getting more from it using the sword), the only Lightsaber you're not wanting is a Training Saber.

The point I was making is that for 1 Force Point the Finish can do a lot more to the crit roll than the HBS talent can. That doesn't mean it always will, but it can. Curved Hilt, Shoto, Extended Hilt and Krayt Pearl = 1 nasty Duelest. But the Sorien crystal from KtP is actually a really great choice too, it bolsters your Parry even further and helps with the boost after parrying. Then so long as you trigger a crit with 3A or a T you can add to the roll at a rate of +10 per Force Pip.

The equipment doesn't make the character, but a character can certainly make the equipment.

Hawk Bat Swoop is more flexible if you have a 1 crit lightsaber crystal.

Makashi Finish will give you massive crits without needing a 1 crit crystal which frees up a lot of lightsaber crystal options you normally would not pick.

Honestly Makashi is the better one on one light saber combat tree. It has an easy time recovering strain mid fight and when paired with the right spec its genuinely better then Ataru for that purpose. Ataru is a vastly superior spec for mobility especially when paired with a finished force leap tree. It has the range advantage and can do the leap in smack a dude leap out of range constant motion, but Ataru is exhausting to use.

I used to think that Sun Djem was just a way to save an Advantage on the disarm you can already do for 3 advantage. Then I saw that it landed Short distance away, and realized it was actually worse: when you use the normal disarm, it just falls at your feet. if you saved a maneuver (which you should be doing in a duel) you can scoop up your opponents weapon and end things right then and there, instead of them just using a Move to get it back.

Uh, no. When you use the regular disarm, the weapon falls at their feet, not yours. They are Engaged with their weapon (because they started the round with it in their hand), but you are in Short Range of it. You would need to use two maneuvers to do exactly what you propose - one to Engage with their weapon, and another to pick it up.

Sum Djem not only lowers the advantage cost to trigger a disarm, but it can also forces your opponent to spend the same number of Maneuvers - two - to rearm themselves, by putting the weapon in their Short Range band.

In addition, given the recent ruling that "within Short Range" includes Engaged (which now renders Hawk Bat Swoop the strongest lightsaber talent in the game by virtue of it's ability to buy Crit 1 activations with no drawback), then Sum Djem, by it's very similar text on F&D p. 152-153, now also dictates that the talent user is allowed to place the disarmed weapon to the Sum Djem user's Engaged range band.

So your tactic - disarming your opponent's lightsaber and picking it up in just one turn with no strain cost - is now the sole purview of Sum Djem.

Considering that the only specs capable of Sum Djem are The Duelist (Makashi), The Diplomat (Niman) and the Swordmaster (Shii-Cho), disallowing one-turn disarm-and-grab with no drawback from every other spec would put Sun Djem back in line with it's intended thematic design.

I used to think that Sun Djem was just a way to save an Advantage on the disarm you can already do for 3 advantage. Then I saw that it landed Short distance away, and realized it was actually worse: when you use the normal disarm, it just falls at your feet. if you saved a maneuver (which you should be doing in a duel) you can scoop up your opponents weapon and end things right then and there, instead of them just using a Move to get it back.

Uh, no. When you use the regular disarm, the weapon falls at their feet, not yours. They are Engaged with their weapon (because they started the round with it in their hand), but you are in Short Range of it. You would need to use two maneuvers to do exactly what you propose - one to Engage with their weapon, and another to pick it up.

Sum Djem not only lowers the advantage cost to trigger a disarm, but it can also forces your opponent to spend the same number of Maneuvers - two - to rearm themselves, by putting the weapon in their Short Range band.

In addition, given the recent ruling that "within Short Range" includes Engaged (which now renders Hawk Bat Swoop the strongest lightsaber talent in the game by virtue of it's ability to buy Crit 1 activations with no drawback), then Sum Djem, by it's very similar text on F&D p. 152-153, now also dictates that the talent user is allowed to place the disarmed weapon to the Sum Djem user's Engaged range band.

So your tactic - disarming your opponent's lightsaber and picking it up in just one turn with no strain cost - is now the sole purview of Sum Djem.

Considering that the only specs capable of Sum Djem are The Duelist (Makashi), The Diplomat (Niman) and the Swordmaster (Shii-Cho), disallowing one-turn disarm-and-grab from every other spec would put Sun Djem in line with it's intended thematic design.

Wait, so you're trying to say that if it falls "at the feet" of my opponent--that I am Engaged with--I am not close enough to attempt to pick it up? Sorry, I don't accept this.

EDIT: To expand on that, if the dropped object was a grenade and it went off, you are certainly still Engaged and eligible to be caught in the Blast.

Wait, so you're trying to say that if it falls "at the feet" of my opponent--that I am Engaged with--I am not close enough to attempt to pick it up? Sorry, I don't accept this.

Scenario: You moved to Engaged with an Inquisitor, who is now attempting to retreat. The Inquisitor has one hand on his lightsaber, ready to parry your lightsaber attacks, and the other hand on a door console attempting to open it for his escape. Mechanically speaking, he is Engaged with you, his lightsaber and the door console.

Question: Are you automatically considered Engaged with the door console too?

If your answer is yes, then you can sabotage the console with your saber without spending an extra Maneuver to Engage it.

If your answer is no, then you need to spend 2 Strain to take an extra Maneuver to Engage the console in order to sabotage it.

Whichever you answer, you must then apply that rule to the Inquisitor's lightsaber if you instead decide to disarm them by regular means, as the dropped lightsaber is now also a separate field object.

Engaged range covers a group of things that form an Engagement, each close enough to interact with each other. The PC, Inquisitor, Console and all their gear is Engaged.

I used to think that Sun Djem was just a way to save an Advantage on the disarm you can already do for 3 advantage. Then I saw that it landed Short distance away, and realized it was actually worse: when you use the normal disarm, it just falls at your feet. if you saved a maneuver (which you should be doing in a duel) you can scoop up your opponents weapon and end things right then and there, instead of them just using a Move to get it back.

Uh, no. When you use the regular disarm, the weapon falls at their feet, not yours. They are Engaged with their weapon (because they started the round with it in their hand), but you are in Short Range of it. You would need to use two maneuvers to do exactly what you propose - one to Engage with their weapon, and another to pick it up.

GM: Ok, it's your turn, you're still Engaged with the Inquisitor.

Player: OK, I'm going to use an Aim to target his feet with my lightsaber.

GM: You can't, his feet are at Short range.

I used to think that Sun Djem was just a way to save an Advantage on the disarm you can already do for 3 advantage. Then I saw that it landed Short distance away, and realized it was actually worse: when you use the normal disarm, it just falls at your feet. if you saved a maneuver (which you should be doing in a duel) you can scoop up your opponents weapon and end things right then and there, instead of them just using a Move to get it back.

Uh, no. When you use the regular disarm, the weapon falls at their feet, not yours. They are Engaged with their weapon (because they started the round with it in their hand), but you are in Short Range of it. You would need to use two maneuvers to do exactly what you propose - one to Engage with their weapon, and another to pick it up.

GM: Ok, it's your turn, you're still Engaged with the Inquisitor.

Player: OK, I'm going to use an Aim to target his feet with my lightsaber.

GM: You can't, his feet are at Short range.

Technically, engaged is short ranged, just those within that band are clashing somewhat fierce with great effort needed to break the deadlock.

I would arguably leave the "kicking of the lightsaber" to either additional advantages or Triumphs, or either that or simply adopt the policy that everything is fair game.

Technically, engaged is short ranged, just those within that band are clashing somewhat fierce with great effort needed to break the deadlock.

I would arguably leave the "kicking of the lightsaber" to either additional advantages or Triumphs, or either that or simply adopt the policy that everything is fair game.

Engaged has nothing to do with whether you are "clashing" with something. It's simply a way of saying "Close enough to interact with." From the AoR rulebook:

Engaged is also used to indicate that a person is close enough to an item to use it. A Slicer needs to be engaged with a security terminal to attempt to hack it. A Pilot needs to be engaged with his starship to board it. A Sharpshooter needs to be engaged with a tree if he wants to hide behind it for cover while scoping his target. The engaged status simply indicates that two things are close enough to each other to directly interact. Consider engaged as a subcategory of short range.

If I am in engagement range (i.e. melee) range with an enemy combatant, I am Engaged with anything they drop at their feet. Picking up an item that they dropped is a Maneuver, full stop.

Trying to think of a way to make Sun Djem worthwhile (without going through the bother of moving it around in the spec tree), maybe there could be an opposed check between the player and their opponent to reflect a scramble for a dropped weapon? I may do this in the future, but when I had someone realize that picking up the weapon was a thing they could do because they still had a maneuver left it was such a moment , just one of those moments when you realize how awesome this system is and how cool it is that even if you fail an attack, Advantage means that you can still do something worthwhile. We were so pumped, I didn't want to take away from that.

With the reduction in Advantage cost as well as the specific "the weapon lands anywhere within short range of the engagement" I would have said Sum Djem was great as is.

One thing about Sum Djem is that you could argue that is possible to make it land in your hands directly, so you won't need a maneuver to recover it (maybe a coordination check?).

Yeah, on a first glance it seems that ataru is the best offensive wise. But isn't that very fitting according to lore?. The thing about lightsaber styles is that they are a bit rock/paper/scissors if you pit them against each other, or facing varied threats.

Makashi, as others have pointed out, is the only style that protects you against disarms, arguably the easiest way to defeat a lightsaber user. Also, he won't mind facing opponents with talents like Center of Being, that increase you crit rating, but ataru wouldn't be able to get those high crits anymore. As ataru you might have linked and a lot of advantage, but pit him against shien and enjoy trying to hit him with a bunch of extra failures, you might have a very hard time. Or against soresu, parrying every hit you make with ease and if despairs are rolled getting them all back against you. Or against niman, that probably wins initiative and pulls you to him and disarms you easy with Sum Djem. What do you do next?

You can't really compare a talent vs a talent, you have to compare the styles as a whole. In my opinion the devs made a great job of making each style with strengths and weaknesses.

One thing about Sum Djem is that you could argue that is possible to make it land in your hands directly, so you won't need a maneuver to recover it (maybe a coordination check?).

That would be a great way to narrate using 2 advantage to gain a second free maneuver for the round:

"I spend 2 Advantage to disarm my enemy, then 2 more for a second free maneuver to catch his Saber from mid air"

One thing about Sum Djem is that you could argue that is possible to make it land in your hands directly, so you won't need a maneuver to recover it (maybe a coordination check?).

That would be a great way to narrate using 2 advantage to gain a second free maneuver for the round:

"I spend 2 Advantage to disarm my enemy, then 2 more for a second free maneuver to catch his Saber from mid air"

Worked pretty well for Anakin in RotS during his re-match with Dooku.

Not so much for Dooku though...

Well in Dooku's defense he thought his boss would intervene...

Well in Dooku's defense he thought his boss would intervene...

Too bad that Palp's was taking the hands-off approach at that moment...