Hey guys! Yes, this is another let's fix the t-65 thread...

But if you clicked here you are at least curious, so let me take a little of your time.

I'm a big fan of the t-65 and played a bunch of matches with them, albeit in the most casual environment possible. From my little experience and from what I read and watch there are two main problems with the ship:

1) No reposition.

2) Efficiency (in an environment populated with x7 defenders and jumpmasters, being a little inferior to a b-wing doesn't impress in the slightest).

I've seen a bunch of suggestions out there and I'd like to show what I've come up with:

T-65B X-wing.

X-wing only. Rebel Alliance Only. Title.

Treat all your 2-speed maneuvers as green maneuvers.

If you equip an <astromech> upgrade card its squad point cost is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 0.

X-wing dials are pretty bland. With this aces would have more options when stressed, allowing new possibilities with PTL and boost or vector thrusters. Generics gain reasonable boost in efficiency - IA for free with better mechs. Both BB-8 and R2D2 become much more powerful and useful.

Bat-Wedge is now more unpredictable and 2 point cheaper, but not overpowered when compared to the 35 Soontir.

What you guys think? I'm considering this for house rules.

(srry for the English, not a native speaker)

Your English is fine, dont worry about it.

The major problem with your 2speed maneivers all being green is that there is already a mechanic for that the Xwing can take, its called R2 astromech...which makes sense for Xwings to take.

I do however like your reduced cost of astromechs on the ship.

but then it casues the problem of taking over one specific Astromech's job.

Now yes your method frees up the astro slot, but it really stops people from taking a decent card. I mean decent, not great...though I'm sure some here on the forums would say it is great.

I personally want to see something with the same name as yours - a title called T-65B (and Rebel only- though my "fix" would be obvious to not put on a T-70) where the ship gains the tallon roll maneuver or something. It wouldnt take too much away from the T-70 sicne the T-70 has the boost and an extra shield upgrades built in.

Heck the original idea of the Tallon Roll was conceived by Adar Tallon an exceptional old school fighter tacticisan that was present at Yavin. And was able to be done on fighters such as the Xwing...and older. Sadly the maneuver in game was developed after 8waves of ships had been made/designed...so prior releases suffer.

Maybe if there was a Rogue One release or Rebel Veterans release that includes a astro that is generic and gives a new action to Xwings that could be nice. Such as letting Xwings do an evade action (oh wait we had a botched job of that with R3)....

or maybe some other cool generic astro that was useful and at a good cost, the Xwing could be perfectly fine.

Anything that improves the greens of an X-Wing, but leaves the droid slot untouched, is going to see a lot of R2D2 use.

I think the T-65 is 99% of the way there, honestly. I'd like to see if have 1 more action on its bar, or some other interesting mechanic.

One thing I will say: the T-70 is in rough shape. Yes: Poe sees play. But outside of him, who else does? The ship is simply too expensive outside of Poe. So we should feel free to fix both ships at once.

I think the suggestion deserves to be looked at more closely.

Sure, it takes the job of the R2 Astromech, but only on X-Wings. The R2 comes in the Y-Wing expansion pack, and is great for them.

It is also lore-friendly. X-Wings were really really maneuverable. They weren't the fastest, neither the sturdiest, neither the most advanced fighters. But they could really get themselves into and out of trouble with ease, and were great at outmaneuvering other, theoretically superior foes.

With more greens, it opens up the choices that X-wings have. As mentioned, BB-8 and R2-D2 become even better on X-Wings.

I don't like autoincludes other than titles because they basically remove a whole slot of upgrades from the choice pool. And I don't like that Integrated Astromech is considered an autoinclude because it implies the loss of the Modification slot, that is one of the most contested slots.

An X-Wing with Vectored Thrusters and this T65B title can use Push the limit without becoming so predictable, for 23 points, resulting in a ship that is both repositionable and can have good action economy.

With Targeting Astromech and T65B you could get modifiers every round to make your attacks more effective. If you add a R7 astromech, it makes the ship quite durable even when doing koiograns to prepare the next approach, while not making your totally predictable next round.

I think this proposal has some merit. Make it T65 X-Wing only (by using the ship icon instead of just "X-Wing") if needed.

If integrated astromech had granted you a droid at a 1pt discount, we wouldn't even bee wondering - just flying the things, and whining that everyone runs R2 on rookies, r7 on tarn, and uniques elsewhere.

We'd all have been thrilled when the r3 cars was announced, being a new 1pt generic mech that, while not perfect, helped slip a little flexibility into the T-65's jousting tactics.

Alas, this is not that world.

And I'm willing to place a bet that the ARC pack has an unusual lead designer on it; possibly a new one entirely.

The problem with buffing the T-70 is that poe will spiral out of control easily with any buff. But I really like your idea of a fix for the T65

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a fix for both T70s and T65s in Heroes of the Resistance.

In particular, the card called 'Pr... Thru...' seems likely to be Prow Thrusters and features x-wing art. I wonder about something that goes in the torp slot and gives you boost plus a benefit when you boost so that it provides a small benefit to T70s who need a smaller fix - the benefit when you boost - and a big benefit t T65s who then get boost with a benefit.

That would be an elegant way of providing a fix to both ships of about the right level.

I dont play rebel scum much but I think that your idea is great.

Do something with Rogue Squadron FFG.

I hate all this speculation, people saying 'it's 99% there' (lol), people seeing a single unspoiled card in Heros of the Resistance and going 'THAT'S PROW THRUSTERS AND IT WILL BE A TORPEDO THAT GIVES YOU BOOST AND IT WILL FIX THE T-65!' and people clamoring for Boost/Barrel Roll on it.

All of us suck at designing cards, that's why we don't have jobs designing cards. Just keep yelling at FFG to fix the T-65 and they'll do it for us, without all this crap.

The T-65 has received many fixes and a few T-65 pilots are making top lists now. The new mod that allows a ship to barrel roll will add to the list of upgrades that benefits the T-65.

The T-65 is a very versatile ship and can be built to match any list. Many of the fixes I see propose changes that turn the X-wing into another ship. We already have the T-70 if you need that.

The T-65 is a fantastic support ship. Because of it's dial, it is also a great blocker. Astromechs like R3-A2 can make them a real pain. Sometimes the T-65 can even be the star of the list (Wedge and Wes) and BB-8 has given new life to the higher PS X-wings. I find myself using X-wings a lot. When I have 21 to 25 points left over I first turn the the X-wings to see if I can build one to compliment the list. If you haven't flown the namesake of this game in awhile, make it a point to do so over the next few months. Try new things. This old bird is still the backbone of the Rebellion.

The T-65 has received many fixes and a few T-65 pilots are making top lists now. The new mod that allows a ship to barrel roll will add to the list of upgrades that benefits the T-65.

The T-65 is a very versatile ship and can be built to match any list. Many of the fixes I see propose changes that turn the X-wing into another ship. We already have the T-70 if you need that.

The T-65 is a fantastic support ship. Because of it's dial, it is also a great blocker. Astromechs like R3-A2 can make them a real pain. Sometimes the T-65 can even be the star of the list (Wedge and Wes) and BB-8 has given new life to the higher PS X-wings. I find myself using X-wings a lot. When I have 21 to 25 points left over I first turn the the X-wings to see if I can build one to compliment the list. If you haven't flown the namesake of this game in awhile, make it a point to do so over the next few months. Try new things. This old bird is still the backbone of the Rebellion.

Hahahahaha! Always the Comedian!

A 'versatile ship'! Classic! A 'great blocker'! pfft.

Honestly, I think all it needs is the equivalent of Chaardan refit. But It should not lose any slots.

Something worded like

Modification, T-65 only

Reduce the cost of this ship by 3 points, you may take another modification.

The T-65 has received many fixes and a few T-65 pilots are making top lists now. The new mod that allows a ship to barrel roll will add to the list of upgrades that benefits the T-65.

The T-65 is a very versatile ship and can be built to match any list. Many of the fixes I see propose changes that turn the X-wing into another ship. We already have the T-70 if you need that.

The T-65 is a fantastic support ship. Because of it's dial, it is also a great blocker. Astromechs like R3-A2 can make them a real pain. Sometimes the T-65 can even be the star of the list (Wedge and Wes) and BB-8 has given new life to the higher PS X-wings. I find myself using X-wings a lot. When I have 21 to 25 points left over I first turn the the X-wings to see if I can build one to compliment the list. If you haven't flown the namesake of this game in awhile, make it a point to do so over the next few months. Try new things. This old bird is still the backbone of the Rebellion.

There's nothing versatile about the T-65 when it lacks any reposition ability. In a maneuver-based game, if you have no way of altering your post-maneuver location, but every other competitive ship can, that's not versatile. The only ships that can get away with it have turrets, and guess what? The majority of the ones run or have been run either have a native reposition, or have had engine upgrade put on, usually both. Against X/7 Defenders, an equal amount of points of X-Wing loses, and that's not even because of repositioning. It's because they get a free evade token when they perform their favored maneuvers, then get their action, making it exceptionally hard to damage them. On top of that, White 4Ks are a HUGE jousting advantage, which also triggers X7, so even after K-Turning they get 2 actions. X-Wings get none.

There's no upside to bringing a T-65 except for their pilot abilities. And the only 2 that i know that get run EVER are Biggs because nothing i've written above matters to Biggs, and Wes because he takes tokens off of whomever he shoots at, which outweighs the negatives attached to bringing him.

The T-70 is in a better but still sinking boat. It eliminates one problem over the X-Wing, and that's that it has a native boost. Everything else applies, though, plus some extra. I don't even see Poe anymore, to be honest. The reason for this is Jumpmasters 100%. There is no use for a T-70 pilot that chips away small amounts of damage from attacks against him at a time, and regens a health a turn against a Jumpmaster. This is a jousting meta, and T-70s cannot joust, at all. It has a horrid jousting value, because it wasn't supposed to. The extra problem is that T-70s can't quite arc dodge, either. Boost is great, but real arc dodgers have boost AND barrel roll. Boost was sufficient against just Palp Aces because boost is far better at keeping things in arc than dodging them. Now, you have to be an arc dodger or an insane jouster to survive this meta, and Rebels are extremely lacking in both categories.

The question i need to ask is, why is the Empire better at what Rebels were supposed to do from day 1? Empire was all about agility over survivability, Rebels were all about high health low AGI ships that you would point at an enemy and throw lots of dice. I want to know why, then, that Rebels are the worst at doing it out of all the 3 factions. Empire is by an enormous landslide the most versatile faction. They definitely have a huge amount of arc dodgers, they have a respectable array of jousters(TIE Fighters, X7 Defenders, probably others i'm forgetting), and so on. Scum at least has JM5Ks. What, exactly, do Rebels have? A-Wings? They're probably the most effective thing we have right now, because at the very least we can load up 5 with prockets.

Anything that buffs the T-65 could probably be used to benefit the T-70 as well, without making it OP or something, because it's definitely not doing well right now. Ironically, because of Wes and Biggs, i see more T-65s on the table than i see T-70s.

As for support ships, i believe that any pilot that REQUIRES a support ship to be effective is inherently flawed. Because once that support ship is dead, that pilot becomes mincemeat. Because it just so happens that support ships are very defensively weak to begin with. Biggs i wouldn't classify as a support ship, because he's not really supporting anyone. It also eats *** at blocking because, no, it's dial is pretty garbage. Why oh why would you take a T-65 to block when you could, for 6 points cheaper, take a prototype pilot with CR, which has an amazing dial and boost and a lower pilot skill.

Wedge is awesome.

Wedge, Wes, and Biggs are all good choices in this current meta. I think Vectored Thrusters is already going to boost them further, and I believe T-70's will be much stronger following Heroes of the Resistance.

FFG have made it clear that there will be no single X-wing fix. There are multiple options and these will increase in the coming months., There were new pilots and astromechs in the Rebel Transport, there was the T-70, there was Integrated Astromech. We know Vectored Thrusters is on the way, also a bunch of T-70 pilots and further upgrades that we don't know about yet. FFG will see how the X-wing performs in the months following Wave 9 and Heroes of the Resistance, and I have a feeling the old X-wing is going to do pretty well.

I actually like the OP's idea and I would jump for joy if it happened, because I love X-wings, but I also think it would make certain pilots and upgrades too good. R2-D2 is already really, really strong for 4 points, despite the X-wings poor dial.

Said it once, say it again.

Green or White K-Turn. That's all folks.

Vectored thrusters costs points and takes up the integrated astromechs spot on the ships.

Which is to say, don't get your hopes up on it fixing x-wings, it's already fighting their balance patch.

Crazy thought: Zero point T-65 title that basically says that any Astromech relying on a dice roll automatically succeeds.

Crazy thought: Zero point T-65 title that basically says that any Astromech relying on a dice roll automatically succeeds.

That works for making the astromech not crap...

Crazy thought: Zero point T-65 title that basically says that any Astromech relying on a dice roll automatically succeeds.

That works for making the astromech not crap...

And a 1-point Mod called the T-70 Refit to add a shield and Boost so people can whinge about not having a spot for Integrated Astromech.

After performing a white 2 speed move you may perform a free barrel roll but using the long edge of the template against the ship's side. A large ship barrel roll if you will.

A bit of repositioning for free with conditions that mean it won't combo with too much.

I don't like the idea of giving repositioning to the t65. It would work, and technically fix it, but then it becomes too much like the t70 or e-wing. It should be unique.

I like the idea of just giving it a more potent attack. I'd give it one more attack die to make it 4/2/3/2, but make that one point upgrade a title with whatever cost it needs to be (mathwingers can figure this out).

I don't like the idea of giving repositioning to the t65. It would work, and technically fix it, but then it becomes too much like the t70 or e-wing. It should be unique.

I like the idea of just giving it a more potent attack. I'd give it one more attack die to make it 4/2/3/2, but make that one point upgrade a title with whatever cost it needs to be (mathwingers can figure this out).

One of my favorite fixes for the starviper had in fact been the suggestion of letting it reroll a single die when attacking in arc - a free predator effect effectively buys it four dice, and that it's a reroll effect lessens the value of the overly depended on FCS or predator builds (which, in essence, are throwing points at getting to a level of offense so desperately needed one way or another), letting the EPT and system slots be used for more fun stuff accordingly.

I dunno, but it seems worth a try!

For x-wings? Harder. When one of your two abilities is to reroll dice, I'm more reluctant to hand out rerolls.

Roll an extra die; before comparing results you must cancel at least one die.

... hey! I just fixed r3 in the same breath!

Hey guys! Yes, this is another let's fix the t-65 thread...

But if you clicked here you are at least curious, so let me take a little of your time.

I'm a big fan of the t-65 and played a bunch of matches with them, albeit in the most casual environment possible. From my little experience and from what I read and watch there are two main problems with the ship:

1) No reposition.

2) Efficiency (in an environment populated with x7 defenders and jumpmasters, being a little inferior to a b-wing doesn't impress in the slightest).

I've seen a bunch of suggestions out there and I'd like to show what I've come up with:

T-65B X-wing.

X-wing only. Rebel Alliance Only. Title.

Treat all your 2-speed maneuvers as green maneuvers.

If you equip an <astromech> upgrade card its squad point cost is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 0.

X-wing dials are pretty bland. With this aces would have more options when stressed, allowing new possibilities with PTL and boost or vector thrusters. Generics gain reasonable boost in efficiency - IA for free with better mechs. Both BB-8 and R2D2 become much more powerful and useful.

Bat-Wedge is now more unpredictable and 2 point cheaper, but not overpowered when compared to the 35 Soontir.

What you guys think? I'm considering this for house rules.

(srry for the English, not a native speaker)

I like this if it doesn't make all the 2 speeds green. Biggs with more greens and r2-d2 at 2 points cheaper seems like a monster.

I don't like rerolls as much. It just slows the game down. It could work though.

I don't like the idea of giving repositioning to the t65. It would work, and technically fix it, but then it becomes too much like the t70 or e-wing. It should be unique.

I like the idea of just giving it a more potent attack. I'd give it one more attack die to make it 4/2/3/2, but make that one point upgrade a title with whatever cost it needs to be (mathwingers can figure this out).

One of my favorite fixes for the starviper had in fact been the suggestion of letting it reroll a single die when attacking in arc - a free predator effect effectively buys it four dice, and that it's a reroll effect lessens the value of the overly depended on FCS or predator builds (which, in essence, are throwing points at getting to a level of offense so desperately needed one way or another), letting the EPT and system slots be used for more fun stuff accordingly.

I dunno, but it seems worth a try!

For x-wings? Harder. When one of your two abilities is to reroll dice, I'm more reluctant to hand out rerolls.

Roll an extra die; before comparing results you must cancel at least one die.

... hey! I just fixed r3 in the same breath!