I think more like a mesmer archtype (debuffing specialist / action control) or a elusive assassin with some anti magic skills / or mind control tricks.

Nice!

In the runebound universe (second edition) they are more like a warrior/assassin class type. Its cool too

This seems to give the heroes a lot of possibilities, and I see the potential of some very OP combinations here.

I hate "to be that guy", but is this what Descent needs now? Even more power to the heroes? Or are the new OL debuffs really that good? (I have not yet played Mists.... please enlighten me)

I am also concerned. Did FFG really check all hybrid class - hero combinations to rule out that completely OP heroes will be steamrolling us poor OLs all day long? Let's hope this will not end up in a balance nightmare.

I am also concerned. Did FFG really check all hybrid class - hero combinations to rule out that completely OP heroes will be steamrolling us poor OLs all day long? Let's hope this will not end up in a balance nightmare.

I often feel like the mage is the weak link in the game. Like they weren't sure what to do with them outside of runemaster and most of their classes are quite weak as a result.

Being able to have one of each archetype but have two of them be fighters is going to be pretty amazing!

I am also concerned. Did FFG really check all hybrid class - hero combinations to rule out that completely OP heroes will be steamrolling us poor OLs all day long? Let's hope this will not end up in a balance nightmare.

Even if some of the new class/hero combinations might be overpowered, you can still use a houserule against the most blatant combinations. On the other hand this might lead to more play with some heroes which aren´t often chosen for a class of their own archetype.

In the worst case you can still use the new classes in the PODs or Road to Legend and have a new experience with them, where no human overlords will be harmed

Remember that none of the Hybrid classes can take a 3 xp card except their hybrid class one.

This means no necromancer Steelcaster with Army of Undeath

No Skirmisher battle mage with Carve a path...

You can still get some pretty nifty combos, but you'll actually have the same amount of XP to spend on more 1 and 2 xp cards, and only one 3 xp card.

I'm relishing the thought of Jaes as a skirmisher battle mage with one rune in each hand, runic plate on his back, mana weave...

Can you say +8 heatlh, +4 stamina, auto pierce on both runes in each hand?

yowza!

I'm relishing the thought of Jaes as a skirmisher battle mage with one rune in each hand, runic plate on his back, mana weave...

Can you say +8 heatlh, +4 stamina, auto pierce on both runes in each hand?

And what the point to play unbeatable heroes ? And no broken then ?

Where's the fun ?

Maybe in coop, since it's only fighting logic, but I "normal" play, I don't see the point.

I'm relishing the thought of Jaes as a skirmisher battle mage with one rune in each hand, runic plate on his back, mana weave...

Can you say +8 heatlh, +4 stamina, auto pierce on both runes in each hand?

And what the point to play unbeatable heroes ? And no broken then ?

Where's the fun ?

Maybe in coop, since it's only fighting logic, but I "normal" play, I don't see the point.

There shouldn't be a "point" in playing "unbeatable heroes". There simply shouldn't be any unbeatable heroes. You shouldn't have to self-moderate or houserule; if the new system results in greatly unbalanced combinations, it's not the player's fault for choosing a good combination. Especially since Descent is a boardgame that is implied to be meant to be played in a thematic, pseudo-roleplay fashion, and I cannot think of any more thematic application of the Battlemage hybrid class than Jaes the Exile as a Battemage Skirmisher, Champion, or Knight.

If Jaes the Exile, the Battlemage, results in an overpowered combination that players should somehow self-moderate away from or straight-out ban as a houserule (a concept which is incredibly dodgy in a boardgame with set rules and assumptions to begin with) then the system is just plain broken.

Remember that none of the Hybrid classes can take a 3 xp card except their hybrid class one.

This means no necromancer Steelcaster with Army of Undeath

No Skirmisher battle mage with Carve a path...

You can still get some pretty nifty combos, but you'll actually have the same amount of XP to spend on more 1 and 2 xp cards, and only one 3 xp card.

I'm relishing the thought of Jaes as a skirmisher battle mage with one rune in each hand, runic plate on his back, mana weave...

Can you say +8 heatlh, +4 stamina, auto pierce on both runes in each hand?

yowza!

I would argue that in many cases, the 3xp capstone abilities/skills are rarely worth it, but you usually end up taking them anyway. With the added 3 choices (1xp, 2xp, 3xp) from the hybrid class itself, I'd argue that 9 times out of 10, you're probably better off anyway.

That being said, it is an important point that could significantly change how something plays out in many cases. For most intents and purposes, the class a hybrid class hybridizes with is it's own class. A Jaes the Exile as a Beastmaster isn't really a Beastmaster at all, he's a Battlemage Beasthunter and it will likely play significantly differently from a regular Beasthunter in the end, for multiple reasons.

And that's something I really like about this system. I may be annoyed that we got this instead of the last two missing full classes, and I may hate the Monk class because of thematic reasons and because it'll never give me the feeling of being a Scout Bard at all, but the system itself is solid as hell and I love it.

I think we should get into the habit of really prefacing hybrid classes with the relevant hybrid class and then the class it hybridizes with, to avoid confusion. Battlemage Skirmisher, Battlemage Champion, Steelcaster Runemaster, etc.

I'm almost sure that thoses classes are going to break the small and fragile balance of the game

I'm almost sure that thoses classes are going to break the small and fragile balance of the game

While I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you in whether they could end up breaking the balance or not - I'm seeing some very real potential issues - I do disagree in "small and fragile" . Descent is actually pretty robust, and has a lot of options between really crappy combos and insanely powerful ones, without even the insanely powerful ones necessarily being game-breaking. Most of us here knows of things like Thaidan Mistpeak Treasure Hunter, or Elder Mok Bard, or Orkell the Swift as a Skirmisher (which he was literally made for, he's probably one of the best out-of-the-box match-ups between class and hero).

I doubt that these combos won't be more or less within the boundries already set, especially since some of the best/most interesting (I think, at least) combinations mentioned so far has taken heroes that are usually sometimes considered sub-par and made them into something that actually fits them and is powerful at the same time (Zyla as a Battlemage Berserker, Jaes the Exile as a Battlemage Skirmisher, etc).

But you're right to be worried.

I'm not all that worried. Sure, Jaes can get a ton of health- but he's still very vulnerable on the attribute front. Being an effective overlord is rarely about knockouts, and never ONLY about that. Don't forget that if Jaes wants to be wielding 2 runes, that is an expensive gear up, and you're not even certain to find good runes while shopping in Act 2.

I'm not all that worried. Sure, Jaes can get a ton of health- but he's still very vulnerable on the attribute front. Being an effective overlord is rarely about knockouts, and never ONLY about that. Don't forget that if Jaes wants to be wielding 2 runes, that is an expensive gear up, and you're not even certain to find good runes while shopping in Act 2.

That's was my thought as well when I wrote about the combo earlier. I'd be far more worried about Thaiden Mistpeak as a Treasure Hunter, which is an already-existing threat, simply because he could make it so much easier for a Battlemage Skirmisher Jaes to get his runes, but this issue would be a real issue in any game, with any line-up, and it forces the Overlord to play differently, and to stop the players from accumulating gold and items, or disable them or stop them in other ways. There's many encounters I've won without knocking out a single hero. I think I've actually lost more simply because I over-reached or tried to kill someone.

I'd be an utter liar if I said I'm not worried of a Jaes the Exile Battlemage Skirmisher running up against me with a Rune of Blades and a Rune of Misery . Dual Strike and Unrelenting are horrifying in this context, no matter how unlikely it is that he'll end up with both these Act 2 runes.

I'm relishing the thought of Jaes as a skirmisher battle mage with one rune in each hand, runic plate on his back, mana weave...

Can you say +8 heatlh, +4 stamina, auto pierce on both runes in each hand?

yowza!

Why +4 stamina? Shouldn't it be +3 = (Runic #1) + (Runic #2) + (Mana Weave)?

I'm not all that worried. Sure, Jaes can get a ton of health- but he's still very vulnerable on the attribute front. Being an effective overlord is rarely about knockouts, and never ONLY about that. Don't forget that if Jaes wants to be wielding 2 runes, that is an expensive gear up, and you're not even certain to find good runes while shopping in Act 2.

Hahaha I am worried for the MoB campaign, mostly the finale (which will only be the interlude when Chains comes). When I played MoB campaign, Jaes made it to the finale with 16 HP (+2 Tainted; +2 Runeplate) and 4 stamina, not to mention the Rune Plate/Ironbound Rune. Dam, I couldn't even wound him badly, nor I could with Corbin. http://d2etracker.com/campaign_overview.php?urlGamingID=67629012

Now, with this class he will be 22 HP, 5 stamina and B+G def dice.

-Rune Plate: +2 HP +Black Die

-Irondbound: +2 HP +1 SP

-Soulstone: +2 HP +1 SP

-Tainted: +2 HP

-Corpsebug Brooch: +2 HP (this, to avoid been defeated by hazard/lava)

And I was lucky he didn't get the Mana Weave. The only thing I can think is to deteriorate him with range units, but still, that defense...anyway, the OL won't have it easy. Moreover, it will be hard to ignore him with all that damage output.

I dunno, seems pretty unbalance to me. At least here. Anyway, more challenge is always welcome.

P.S. Now that I think it deeply, wouldn't this affect also the Shadow Rune finale? Where the victory condition is to kill all the heroes? It is the finale, the quest that decides the winner of the campaign. I know he is not inmortal, but seems very strong, just saying.

Hahaha I am worried for the MoB campaign, mostly the finale (which will only be the interlude when Chains comes). When I played MoB campaign, Jaes made it to the finale with 16 HP (+2 Tainted; +2 Runeplate) and 4 stamina, not to mention the Rune Plate/Ironbound Rune. Dam, I couldn't even wound him badly, nor I could with Corbin. http://d2etracker.com/campaign_overview.php?urlGamingID=67629012

Now, with this class he will be 22 HP, 5 stamina and B+G def dice.

-Rune Plate: +2 HP +Black Die

-Irondbound: +2 HP +1 SP

-Soulstone: +2 HP +1 SP

-Tainted: +2 HP

-Corpsebug Brooch: +2 HP (this, to avoid been defeated by hazard/lava)

And I was lucky he didn't get the Mana Weave. The only thing I can think is to deteriorate him with range units, but still, that defense...anyway, the OL won't have it easy. Moreover, it will be hard to ignore him with all that damage output.

I dunno, seems pretty unbalance to me. At least here. Anyway, more challenge is always welcome.

P.S. Now that I think it deeply, wouldn't this affect also the Shadow Rune finale? Where the victory condition is to kill all the heroes? It is the finale, the quest that decides the winner of the campaign. I know he is not inmortal, but seems very strong, just saying.

Granted, but you have to remember: He won't be ranged. He won't have Exploding Rune, so he can't make things Blast (and if he did, he'd be caught in the Blast). He won't have Rune Mastery, so he can't add a surge freely to any Rune attack once per turn. And he won't have Runic Sorcery, which is an amazing power, so he won't be able to apply any Condition freely.

He'll be a completely different character, with different assumptions, and whereas your current Jaes would eventually get Break the Rune and/or Quick Casting, Jaes the Battlemage will *never* have the 3xp Skirmisher cards of Unstoppable and Carve a Path. Break the Rune is potentially a massive nuke (which admittedly has the issue of targeting figures, not monsters, and requires a certain closeness to the enemy) and Quick Casting allows a full attack extra.

So yeah, sure, he'll go from 16 HP, 4 Stamina to 22 HP, 5 Stamina, but that will in no way be the real meat of the change he's going to go through if you let him change to Battlemage (which I totally think that you should; I myself would be hesitant to let players change class "mid-game", but given that it's a new expansion with options that previously didn't even exist, I'd say that it's fine, and again, if there's a single hero this class was made for, it's Jaes, both mechanically and thematically).

Then tell us how it turned out, because as much as I as an OL share your fear, I want to see how it turns out.

Edit: And yes, this would no doubt affect the The Shadow Rune finale, depending on which finale you're in. That being said, he'd not be that much harder to kill than a good tank outfitted with top-of-the-line gear, much like your Jaes the Exile. In terms of survivability alone, the difference honestly does not look like that much of a big deal. I'd hate to do that map going up against a team of heavies no matter how we cut it.

I think we should get into the habit of really prefacing hybrid classes with the relevant hybrid class and then the class it hybridizes with, to avoid confusion. Battlemage Skirmisher, Battlemage Champion, Steelcaster Runemaster, etc.

Yes please - good call!

He'll be a completely different character, with different assumptions, and whereas your current Jaes would eventually get Break the Rune and/or Quick Casting, Jaes the Battlemage will *never* have the 3xp Skirmisher cards of Unstoppable and Carve a Path. Break the Rune is potentially a massive nuke (which admittedly has the issue of targeting figures, not monsters, and requires a certain closeness to the enemy) and Quick Casting allows a full attack extra.

So yeah, sure, he'll go from 16 HP, 4 Stamina to 22 HP, 5 Stamina, but that will in no way be the real meat of the change he's going to go through if you let him change to Battlemage (which I totally think that you should; I myself would be hesitant to let players change class "mid-game", but given that it's a new expansion with options that previously didn't even exist, I'd say that it's fine, and again, if there's a single hero this class was made for, it's Jaes, both mechanically and thematically).

Then tell us how it turned out, because as much as I as an OL share your fear, I want to see how it turns out.

I know, I know, that's why I said range units were good to poke him to dead. As for the damage, well, we know how powerfull runes are.

Anyway, we are just speculating. Let's not forget we get new things too, Colossals and Marrow Priest could counter him. We just have to wait and see.

He'll be a completely different character, with different assumptions, and whereas your current Jaes would eventually get Break the Rune and/or Quick Casting, Jaes the Battlemage will *never* have the 3xp Skirmisher cards of Unstoppable and Carve a Path. Break the Rune is potentially a massive nuke (which admittedly has the issue of targeting figures, not monsters, and requires a certain closeness to the enemy) and Quick Casting allows a full attack extra.

So yeah, sure, he'll go from 16 HP, 4 Stamina to 22 HP, 5 Stamina, but that will in no way be the real meat of the change he's going to go through if you let him change to Battlemage (which I totally think that you should; I myself would be hesitant to let players change class "mid-game", but given that it's a new expansion with options that previously didn't even exist, I'd say that it's fine, and again, if there's a single hero this class was made for, it's Jaes, both mechanically and thematically).

Then tell us how it turned out, because as much as I as an OL share your fear, I want to see how it turns out.

I know, I know, that's why I said range units were good to poke him to dead. As for the damage, well, we know how powerfull runes are.

Anyway, we are just speculating. Let's not forget we get new things too, Colossals and Marrow Priest could counter him. We just have to wait and see.

While a little bit off-topic, I must say that Marrow Priests look sweet as hell. They're going to be hell, especially for slow teams. Tag them with the Marrow Priest(s) and run away, and stay away, and then slowly pick them off with ranged, preferably reinforceable, monsters. Not being able to recover health by any means is an incredibly debilitating condition and you can slap them again when they get up. They either kill the Marrow Priest right away when they get the chance, or they're just going to run away and then the struck hero slowly bleeds to death one way or another.

I'm just sad that neither Marrow Priests or Dark Priests have Curse or Doom. Feels like it'd be appropriate.

I'm almost sure that thoses classes are going to break the small and fragile balance of the game

i don't like the idea of a Knowledge 5 (e.g Leoric) Mage with "By the book" (Marshal). An Overlord 'without cards' is absolutly no fun.

I'm almost sure that thoses classes are going to break the small and fragile balance of the game

i don't like the idea of a Knowledge 5 (e.g Leoric) Mage with "By the book" (Marshal). An Overlord 'without cards' is absolutly no fun.

There's many other things that would be no fun :

- A Battlemage Berserker who can have 2 surge on an attack, or 1 per attack, with + 6HP and + 2 Stamina (or more depending on the hero and the equipement)

- A treasure hunter Monk that will never make X with +1 Damage, Pierce 2 (as if the treasure hunter was not strong and cheated enough)

I don't see the point to have unbeattable heroes or all pick monsters, And expansions are taking that path.

While I can't speak to all your examples, there will not be a monk treasure hunter. Monk pairs with healer classes and scout heroes (Logan the monk apothecary, for example.) I do not think we have seen the hybrid for scout class decks yet.

I'm kind of divided on the whole hybrid class idea. On the one hand I think that it's awesome that Descent's unique mechanism of combining heroes with certain classes gets a lot more interesting and strategic by opening up so much more options and combinations. On the other hand they seem crazy powerfull on paper or in theorycraft.

However I think that the hybrid classes have quite a unique dynamic to them that imo is a little bit lost in all the posts that try to show how op they are. The thing is, these hybrid classes do only come with 3 skill-cards unique to them, but as much as I can remember they cost a total of 6XP and often are kind of necessary to make the heroes work within their new class e.g. to make heroes of the mage archetype even work as melee warriors. But if you spend 6XP on these skills alone, you can't really buy a lot of other skills which leads this into weighing in the following: How much can I forfeit typical archetype characteristics to get the good class cards in return.

This also makes them scale rather normally instead of being very powefull early in the campaign like I initially thought. It also sets the stage for OL play who has to figure out how he can capitalize on the inevitable weaknesses of these heroes (be it restrictions in versatility if only the 3 hybrid skills are leveld or the restrictions that come with the fact that they haven't got the characteristics of their corresponding archetype if they forgo the hybrid skills).

So I think it will be exciting regardless, because it forces the heroes and OL to mix up the formula, just like the tainted cards did.

I'm just really curious if they are designed to give the heroes a little more power in the Bilehall/Chains-campaign or if they are within the same power-level that the previous classes are in.

Also what does it mean for the viability of the Basic II OL deck, are the hybrid heroes treated equal to their original archetype or equal to the archetype their class-deck is in, or both?

I'm kind of divided on the whole hybrid class idea. On the one hand I think that it's awesome that Descent's unique mechanism of combining heroes with certain classes gets a lot more interesting and strategic by opening up so much more options and combinations. On the other hand they seem crazy powerfull on paper or in theorycraft.

However I think that the hybrid classes have quite a unique dynamic to them that imo is a little bit lost in all the posts that try to show how op they are. The thing is, these hybrid classes do only come with 3 skill-cards unique to them, but as much as I can remember they cost a total of 6XP and often are kind of necessary to make the heroes work within their new class e.g. to make heroes of the mage archetype even work as melee warriors. But if you spend 6XP on these skills alone, you can't really buy a lot of other skills which leads this into weighing in the following: How much can I forfeit typical archetype characteristics to get the good class cards in return.

This also makes them scale rather normally instead of being very powefull early in the campaign like I initially thought. It also sets the stage for OL play who has to figure out how he can capitalize on the inevitable weaknesses of these heroes (be it restrictions in versatility if only the 3 hybrid skills are leveld or the restrictions that come with the fact that they haven't got the characteristics of their corresponding archetype if they forgo the hybrid skills).

So I think it will be exciting regardless, because it forces the heroes and OL to mix up the formula, just like the tainted cards did.

I'm just really curious if they are designed to give the heroes a little more power in the Bilehall/Chains-campaign or if they are within the same power-level that the previous classes are in.

Also what does it mean for the viability of the Basic II OL deck, are the hybrid heroes treated equal to their original archetype or equal to the archetype their class-deck is in, or both?

They will treated equal to their original archtype, monk class still a scout archtype, battlemage still a mage archtype and so on.

Also what does it mean for the viability of the Basic II OL deck, are the hybrid heroes treated equal to their original archetype or equal to the archetype their class-deck is in, or both?

They will treated equal to their original archtype, monk class still a scout archtype, battlemage still a mage archtype and so on.

That's how I would assume it works, too. The hero sheet of a Monk/_______ is still a scout sheet, and the primary deck is a scout deck- you're just also allowed to purchase cards from a healer class deck. That is, archetype=scout. This is supported by the wording of the announcement article (I added some bold):

"For instance, as a Scout , you may choose to take the new Monk hybrid class...Not only does this allow your Scout to immediately gain a Healer Class deck , along with all of that deck’s starting Class cards and items, you also gain access to three powerful Class cards from the Monk Class deck to give your hero a unique identity...."

I don't recall seeing this specifically stated, but I would assume that the hybrid classes start with no equipment of their own, but rather JUST the starting equipment of the secondary class chosen? I.e a battlemage / knight would start with sword and shield.

I don't recall seeing this specifically stated, but I would assume that the hybrid classes start with no equipment of their own, but rather JUST the starting equipment of the secondary class chosen? I.e a battlemage / knight would start with sword and shield.

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/12/a7/12a78d98-bf97-4295-b905-265eb085753f/dj44_cards_arcane-veteran.png

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/9d/d5/9dd5b86f-457c-4d49-8a58-143f2dbc1964/dj44_cards_runeguard.png

When you choose the standard deck, you always get all start skills and equipment from this deck.