Sinister said:

Not had experence of this myself so i can sympathise with you, but you can hopefully excuse my lack of understanding.

crimsonsun said:

Eh it goes like this...

The guy that makes a cultist for call of cthuhlu

The guy that begs to play the magician in pendragon despite the fact that he pays for spells with months of magical sleep.

The guy that wants to play a ratling in a game about human samurai in L5R

The guy that wants to play a vampire in ravenloft.

All choices that totally miss the point of the setting. I'm not saying the choice can't be interesting, but it's totally missing out on what the makers intented for the setting. Yet all are legal choices.

Granted playing an orc would be a hoot, but not in a mixed party enviorment.

What really astounds me is to find a thread like this one with so much support while people are angry at making the iron breaker and wardancer basic carreers. The power levels as starting out as skaven assassins, black orcs, and chaos mutants is a whole different ballgame.

Evil is powerful in the world and I can't see anyone choosing to be a coachman after tasting what it's like to be a skaven assassin or all powerful choas warrior. Your stats are better, you can steal, muder and plunder at will, and you'll be blessed with dark powers. And if 2 of the 3 other players want to do that, I'm sure not picking dockhand.

That's why I support an idea like this only if the company makes the decision, instead of saying "do what you want and let the GM sort it out", because then it's my fault I didn't let someone play the Lord Borak the Despoiler, ally of the rat catcher, a human mage, and the elves of athel loren.

I shouldn't have to conjole and lay down the law forcing them to be something lessor, when they have that carrot dangling in front of them.

crimsonsun said:

Yep. That'd work!

Sinister said:

That would be true in case of party of ROLLplaying power hungry munchkins.

But if your players are more into the story, experiencing the world in a different ways, and playing characters whose purpose is more than just going through a dungeon with a band of mobs at every corner, such characters can remind them, why this world is what it is, can give them more reason to actually play with their normal "good" characters.

Evil races can be powerfull, but it comes at a great cost, cost of loosing their humanity, sanity, bodies, everything they loved before, being hated and pursued by everyone, even those of their own kind, cost of in the end being nothing more, but just a pawn of dark powers.

Playing evil races from time to time can be fun and entertaining, making the world more real, when players realize, that those evil monsters they fight every day, can actually think on their own, and follow their daily rutines, they are especially great for short one time stories, when your players need a break from saving the world one more time.

I know that some players will never understand that, I know at least one, who will say "Hell do I care! I just want more power. How much damage this can do? What loot did I found on the snotling I just killed?", but there are also players that can.

This an off-topic message for Sunatet - I couldn't find any method of direct contact.

There's a randomiser bug in the otherwise excellent WFRP dice roller application that causes results to be more or less likely than they should be. For example, there's twice the chance of rolling a chaos star as a blank on a challenge die. This is caused by the following line in main.js, function rollOneDice:

var result = resTab[Math.round( Math.random()*maxRandom )];

Javascript doesn't seem to have a proper integer randomiser, so you'd need something like this:

var result = resTab[Math.floor( Math.random()*0.999999*(maxRandom+1) )];

If you need further information my email address should be visible in my profile.

jaj22 said:

Thanks for the info mate.

Can't fix it right now, because I'm leaving for my family in 2 hours or so (packing and getting on the train), and won't be back till 28 december.

Where I'm going I will have no access to my server, so you will have to wait a week more with this bug in.

I'll get to this issue, when I get back.

Happy X-mass, kill some orc for me

Sinister said:

This would open up new choices for the setting. What astounds me actually in this whole thread is people who claim that playing the "evil" side is not what Warhammer is all about. Actually, evil and the path of corruption has a huge part in the Warhammer setting (otherwise we would have no bad guys). World of Warcraft turned the world of Orcs (which are GW orcs) and made something magical out of them with a unique spin and flavor. The same option would be here, in this game, to spin "evil" to however you wish. The thing is, this certainly is a different style than the typical good guys facing grim and perilous evil mutant whatevers, but at hte same time so is playing a party of elves or dwarves. The flavor and themes of those games where they are not human-centric changes the game - for some for the better, others for the worse. The setting is an overall idea, each avenue a different way to explore that setting. This just gives us more avenues for exploration.

I honestly have no problem with the Iron Breaker or the Swordmaster or Wardancer as Basic Careers, because, those types of characters should only be included in games that involve that setting. Yes, they stick out like sore thumbs from the rest, but there is no way to "balance" a Swordmaster with a scribe in terms of lethal power. Furthermore, how this relates to my post is Swordmasters and IronBreakers come from a different setting, period. If you have a Swordmaster wander into a bar, meet an intredpid dockhand, a card-slinging dilletante and a Bounty Hunter, why on God's Green earth other than the player generated a Swordmaster is there any reason why this would normally occur in a story. Not saying its not possible, but to generate these parties it would need more backwork than they meet at a bar. Now Sword Master, Envoy, Iron Breaker, and an Elven Way Watcher makes a heck of a lot of sense and work well together and the setting, tone, and story they would tell as compared to the miscrients above or a human-centric story would be radically different.

So I totally agree with you. These thematic characters need to be introduced as such then it wouldn't matter if they are basic or advanced.

With the Dark Core, I call it a core for a reason. Right out of the box it states this is a completely different game, in the same setting, but plays differently. The rulebook should absolutely warn against mix parties of Skaven Assassins and Dockhands. The tone is different, the feel is different, the narratives are different. That needs to be the focus and that should be stated upfront. This is ultimately why I think its best presented as a core rather than a suppliment because it does distinguish a line. A suppliment says, "add this to your existing game" so here are Skaven to add to your game. It leans toward the suggestion of doing so instead of drawing a distinct line in the sand.

At the same time though that line is crossable as this becomes a hefty tool of options and things you can include for regular games as well as things like action cards that could make the cross over if GM'S and players want them to. It also gives a normal character a path to go toward chaos, and besides a few minor buffs, careers they could start walking and a whole host of other options. Everything in the box becomes a tool for the normal game and plays as its own game, that way, we get, as I've said before, best of both worlds.

The other advantage is it would also give FFG a chance to look at Warhammer, and evil, from a different perspective. One, that can be, not so much about the slaughter and pillage, but about perspectives. I ran a campaign for a while where the players were the bad guys of the setting, though to this day, if you ask them, they were the good guys. The set can include stuff like this.

Honestly, I have little to say about grab and play games and games where the GM simply says, generate whatever you want. He has a story to tell, the players are there to play that story, a degree of agreed upon restrictions upfront is very important, that way you don't get the one wizard in a Pendragon group. The GM should simply say, this game is not about Wizards as it will ruin the story, but I will include for you a more magical elements. I know that restricts players freedoms, but for the sake of everyone's fun, at times it has to be done. This way you don't get the one guy who is playing a half-orc in a party of dwarves who hate orcs. You see what I mean? This form of social contract, no matter what FFG says, has to come from the group, gm's in particular. Generally, when players sit down they already do this to some degree. They can't play the bad guys the GM has created, for example. They can't play toads in a game about people. They can't be Itchy and Scratchy from Cartoon reality in a game set in a completely fantasy world where there are no such things as cartoons. GM'S should push that agenda a little more to make sure they don't end up with a party of disfunction and boredom upfront.

Great idea.

And GW should be for it - WAR is 50-50 order/destruction. So is Warhammer invasion LCG. In fact WFRP is about the only warhammer you can play where you cannot be the bad guys. How can you not like the bad guys - Dark elves, Vampires, Skaven, chaos...all more interesting than Empire, dwarves and high elves. Yes i left out orcs...because they are a comedy race...although an orc campaign played for laughs could be fun.

The first time i read through the core set i was also wondering... umm where are the playable bad guys ?

So yes, WHFRPG 3 is not a true Warhammer until we have playable bad guys

I never liked playing monsters really... vampires? Visit WoD.

Besides you can play bad guys, it's all in the rules, just not as extended as in 2nd edition.

Besides I don't think characters in Warhammer are "good" guys, my players often chose roads that sometimes borders evil, but they never cross the thin line.

But if it sells, then by all means make it, anything that increases profit, so they'll keep surporting 3rd edition

hmm I don`t like the idea of it.

Some of you have allready said it, but it bears repetation: Warhammer is not about playing chaos warriors or chaos sorcerers. For that you have other games.

the world of warhammer is bad enough, without a bunch of players going arround being the baddies. Since warhammer has no alignment rules, you can still be a pretty bad adventurer.

I think that everyone that wants to play a character from the other side, will find much to do as it is. A wizard can learn the art of Dark magic, a devious fighter or thug can pick up corruption points or even get their hands on profane artifacts or malign magical weapons. And all this are not really "the other side" it is the grey zone. And if you ask me, it is navigating through the murky grey waters that makes warhammer what it is. all PCs in one way or another risk tempation, corruption, insanity or outright mutation in their perilous adventuring.

Some players find the notion of getting a mutation an unbearable and will rather make a new character if that happens. others will smile and say "a mutant, thats wicked man" and try to hold on to that character as long as they can.

But going all the way, willingly give your soul away to a daemon for getting nastier spells or rewards? is that really fun? becoming a slave of the Dark gods, loosing your free will, let you GM bully you arround, succumb to the horrors of chaos mutation?

I think playing in the grey zone is much more fun and much more rewarding when it comes to weaving good stories. Stories about the sinful priest that tries to make amends for past dark deeds, the Witch hunter tormented by ghostly faces of the victims he burned, the nagging thoughts of doubt, that some of them might have been innocent.

Heck I don`t want to convince somebody that this is a bad idea. if you want to play a soulless chaos cultist go ahead, but don`t expect FFG to make any products about it anytime soon.

good gaming

I told that before, and I will tel it again.

I love playing bad guys (especially orcs, becouse they are green, and fun)

I did that few times, I liked it, and I want more

And I would gladly welcome some rules to actually help with that.

2-nd ed had it, and I see no point, why 3-rd ed should be any different in the approach.

At least thats my opinion, that will not change no matter what.

BAD GUYS FOR THE WIN!! (green skinned bad guys )

Nice to see this thread resurface. I still like the idea; even moreso after seeing powers appear in the adventures (like Skitterleap for Skaven) and seeing what's in store for us with the Creature Vault. Not only would I love to be able to personalize the odd Orc Chieftan or Waaagh Leader, but my son (having played a lot of WAR) would do backflips if I let him play a squig-herder. I think boxes of WFRP baddies devoted to making playable greenskins or skaven or dark elves would be a treat.

One of the neatest things about the old world is that the bad guys are so well developed thanks to 25 years of WFB and WFRP lore.

Sunatet

orcs are fun! I give you that...

Put me down as a yes. Sometime its fun just to be the bad guy lol. I once ran a good vs evil group campain were I had 2 groups playing each other over a series of adventures, were they fought each other every so offen.

Sinister said:

I agree for the most part; I never liked the classic D&D situation of "I'm playing a Drow! But he's a good guy, see his alignment?" which caused me extreme rage and heart palpitations.

I will mention though that I could deal with a Chaos Warrior in the party, (depending on the group) as long as he was keeping it quiet and was aware that if he's discovered, by the group or the common folk, he's likely to be dismembered. As a rare occurrence, it could be quite fun to try.

To be honest this all come down to execution.

It is relatively rare to stumble apon the full fledged chaos warrior in any adventure. The reason for this is simple, a proper chaos sorcerer or warrior is stronger than a dwarf, faster than an elf and more than a match for any single human. They wield magic that goes far beyond anything that anyone but a master wizard could rival. Vampires are similar, Black Orcs are absolute beasts when it comes to battle. All of these characters would have a great deal of trouble fitting into a standard party and as already mentioned they would put ironbreakers and swordmastes to shame.

However if the party is not mixed it could work, it would be an interesting experience playing a band of mauraders as they attempt to reach the heights of a demon prince. Or to play a hedgewizard or acolyte as he/she becomes a necromancer and perhaps a vampire. Or to play as an Orc or Black Orc wandering the wilderness. I have GMed groups of Skaven end if the group takes to the experience it can be great fun (in one session there were 43 plots, 12 betrayals, 14 assassination attempts, a good deal of blame shifting and the result: the PC's in full retreat with an angry Grey Seer in pursuit).

As a result I am in favour of the idea of allowing alternative parties once in a while but I am not sure about trying to lump them together into a "Dark Core". A Skaven, a chaos warrior, or vampire are so different that they would not be found in the same group and the dynamic of each group would be so different that they would need different rules to encourage the right sort of play.

I would however be in favour of seperate suppliments that combine "light" and "dark" resources. For example do a suppliment dedicated to chaos, that included unique mechanics for witch hunter bands, chaos cults, aspiring warbands, beastherds and so on could be quite interesting. Similarily one focused on necromany with necromancers and vampires, their servants and allies (mortal and sentient dead), and their opponents could be interesting.

Additionally if we are going to go this route there needs to be an understanding that disadvantages come with such power. Chaos followers need to be at the whim of their masters, vampires should have a variety of random and sometimes absurd weaknesses as in 2ed. The player should understand that he might be able to rip a man in half but he also might be stopped by a handful of poppyseeds or a river.If the player wants to play Skaven they should understand that backstabbing and plotting are their second nature, that cowardess is a virtue and so on. If someone wants to be a Orc or better yet a Goblin then make their lives fun, violent and short.

I suppose what I am saying is that I am in favour of the idea if it can be achieved without compromising the characters and races that these villians represent. I do not see a reason to lump them all together when more specialized suppliment might better convey the distinct nature of each evil that plagues the Old World, yes their strengths but also their very real weaknesses. Evil is strong in Warhammer, but there is a good reason it has not won, if the PC's want to be this evil they should also understand why it does not simply overwhelm the Empire.

If all of this can be achieved in a "Dark Core", well then I am in favour of it, if not then I am opposed.

regards,

ET

Personaly I don't like the idea of a Dark Core Set. This looks like You would like to put too much in one box and You're pushing it to it;s limits. besides it would be to expensive.

But the idea of Dark supplements is not so bad. One of the best in my opinion would be a Skaven expansion. But I don't support a idea of players playing skaven charcters. I have some expirience with players playing some evil heroes and it always ended bad. Besides I think that even now You can play as servants of the Dark God - use You imagination! We have some Marks of Chaos, Mutations and even Spells and DArk Magic talent card. In the near future we will have even more of this stuff, so what stands on Your way to make players as evils heroes? What You must have a special career or something? That's not true, there are many worshipers of Chaos in the Empire and don't have a Mark of Chaos or the special career. Not every servant of The Dark Ones must be a Warrior of Chaos or a powerfull Sorcerer. Chaos uses many servants and even the smallest of them can become a terrifing enemy of the Empire!

I like the way it is made by FFG - expansion about something + one of the Dark Gods. In the future I think it will stay this way so we are going to have more expansions with knowledge about many enemies of the Old World. And I hope it will stay this way becouse there is no purpose to change it!!

ffgfan said:

I like the supplement idea myself as it lets you pick and choose which baddies to want.

If you think about Gm's could do this now with want they have so far....Mostly chaose right now do to wind of magic and soon to be out healers/gods one (forgot the name). that one will have Nurgle in it, with the other two dark god on the way. Also with the Monster vault Gms are getting cards for them its just a matter of using the carrier cards with the monster cards.

As for starting stats a Gm could just have a player use a base guide line to start with. best way to do it is to give a starting stat of 2 for all traits and give the player 25 pt to make there PC. (like playing a Human) some of the mosters even have starting abilities on the left ide of the GM book. Or even house rule your own. Maybe. just some idea till we get a better look at the monster Vault. Speaking of which............

........ Anyone know if there is going to be a monster box set were u are getting the monster cards and stuff aswell as a soft cover book? haven't seen any info on this so far. worries me as I like using all the componets to the game and play $70+ to get it all would really suck.

just my 2 cents

OH YEAH! Count me in as a YES for playing bad guys.

One more thing....... Lizardmen are neutral in that they hate undead and chaos, hate skaven, hate everyone that come in their lands. They just want to be left alone so that they can just sit there and think on the meaning of life. Exnophobic if you will. (hope I spelled that right)

....Wasn't that 49 or was it 52? Can't remember, Ill have the sit and think on it................

PBnJ said:

There won't be a Creatures box, You must buy Creatures Vault + Creatures Guide to get it all. It's maybe not to cheap but it's a great way to have all monsters in one pleace. You can always but Creatures Guide first and than Creatures Vault - nobody says that you must buy all at once.

And about the Dark core set I still think that's everyone can play badguys without such a thing.

Can't we just make up some cards for it - races, careers, actions... if no-one thinks this will happen.

Easy to use WFB books and WAR as a resource for classes.

What races would people be interested in? Orcs+Goblins, Skaven, Chaos, Dark elves? Don't really see undead as playable.

uhm

Just to make this perfectly clear and according to FFG this fall will both see the Creature Guide and Creature Vault. So there you have it.

I completely supports this great idea. It will be amazing to have more fluff and options for people that want to see "the other side" , the twisted realm of the enemies of humanity. Although i agree that an ork and a dark elf probably will not work together (although it was done in Warhammer online) there can be complete supplements supporting PCs of that evil races, a little like in Rogue Trader, with the Freebooters and Kroots. It can be done, it will be awesome, especially if done similar as the core set, with a box , art and many many cards with chaos, ork, tomb kings, etc. It really can make the whole of the warhammer universe come to light

No, just no, please.

Ok, let me explain. I am not opposed to having an expansion allowing "monster" PCs. However, I am against it affecting the normal heroic content publishing. For example, you said:

The idea is, instead of a plain old Bestiary, we would instead receive a Dark Core

Absolutely not. We need a beastiary. Honestly, this is the biggest problem I have with your post. You want them to change (and delay) an already excellent looking product. (note, the CV is not a "plain old beastiary"). As well, this forces GM/groups that *don't* want to play evil PCs to have to buy a "dark core" set in order to get the new monsters that would have normally been in the beastiary?

This boxset would feature the four Chaos Gods, Skaven, and Vampires.

You cannot seriously leave out Orc & goblins from a "Dark Core" evil PC core set, while including... Vampires? They're cool and all, and I'm not against including them, but not at the expense of leaving out O&G. If anything, Vampires should be the "expansion" race like Ogres & Lizardmen. Otherwise, the suggestions for the "Dark Core" sound good.

I know some of you may ask, "what's the point?" Well, just a few months ago the fans got FFG to stop producing a line of Arkham Horror miniatures. If that succeeded, then maybe we can get FFG to create something we would actually want to see and use our voice to support their company and their products.

Now see, you went and did it again. FFG is already producing something that we want to see and use. A "plain old boring" Beastiary is *fine* and needed (besides, it's not really plain, old, nor boring, since it includes monster cards, monster action cards, and monster Group cards). Adding a "monster-PC" supplement is a nice idea. I'll support that, but not at the expense of trying to alter FFG's current plan. I really like everything that they've announced so far, and wouldn't want to change it or delay it. Don't try to "nerf" what we're already getting. Entice them to add a new product instead.

Good idea, but a bad plan/suggestion for implementation to FFG. Add it as a supplement, but don't change the currently planned products.