After reading the hints of what's to come, I figured I'd post this up here to generate interest. I'll start with the idea:

Personally, one thing I loved about 2nd edition was the Skaven Suppliment and the Nights Dark Masters. They seemed to serve a double purpose of being a bestiary while allowing gaming groups to play these types of beings as well. Long gone is the day of "good" fighting evil. Players have been enjoying playing evil or pseudo-evil or a white-wolf style of grey for years onto years now. Therefore, rather than us recieving a Monster Manual of sorts I personally would like to see the game take a different direction and I am asking the community if you would to.

The idea is, instead of a plain old Bestiary, we would instead receive a Dark Core (don't know what else to call it now, maybe Chaos Core or something like that). This boxset would feature the four Chaos Gods, Skaven, and Vampires. Since the current core has four playable races in it, this would not be far off base than what we have right now: The four Servants of Chaos (collapsed into one playable starting race that each have access to a different Mark - Talent Card - which makes them unique). Skaven would be one race as well - (again, with different Talent Cards to represent the Clans), and lastly the Vampires - which again are divided by type based on their Talent Cards. These talent cards would be like the free race cards that exist now. The box set would also include Six Magic paths like we have now. One for Vampire Magic, One for Skaven, and Four for the Chaos Gods. Generic Dark Magic cards could be included if they are not already being covered in the magic suppliment (I don't know, not an actual writer of this game). A rulebook could even be included (a revised rulebook would be nice) so you could play it right out of the box. Lastly, a Bestiary for all the various creatures (giant rats, skeletons, zombies, Wights), generic monster types of these playable characters (generic Chaos Warrior for example) and the other denizens of evil for these three factions (Greater Demons, Great Horned One). That way, we get our bestiary and the ability to play the other side of the game. A GM book on how to run these beings could also be included. This book could also suggest ways to run the game where the players play both the party trying to stop the "evil" and the "evil" trying to fullfill their purpose. This would also include how to play from the standpoint that you are not Chaos yet, but are beginning the fall (for the Chaos factions). Party Cards specific to the races, or "Undivided" evil would also be in the box. There would be some form of Chaos Corruption deck included for mutations.

If it was necessary to make it reach an even broader appeal, various cards and careers could be included for fighting these horrible monstrosities in the set like a Vampire Hunter Career, advanced Witch Hunters, and the like.

Of Course, this Core Set leaves out Orcs, Goblins, Lizard Men, and The Ogre Kingdoms, but I could see them approached the same way in later suppliments as well, maybe not as cores, but as race boxes where you get to play Orcs, Goblins, Lizardmen, Ogres, etc. To me, this would very much keep with the spirit of Warhammer where as a Tabletop game we can play the evil side of the genre or the light, whatever suits us and our playstyle.

So what I'm trying to do is to take a poll of those who would like this approach to the "evil" in Warhammer instead of a plain old, boring Monster Manual. I know the price point may be higher than a monster manual, but I can't even begin to conjecture about the price at all. Sure, I'd like to see it cheaper than the core (preferably by fourty bucks or so), but who knows. Instead of bickering about price, I'd rather hear if you'd support this type of approach or not and give a clear, definative answer one way or another.

I know some of you may ask, "what's the point?" Well, just a few months ago the fans got FFG to stop producing a line of Arkham Horror miniatures. If that succeeded, then maybe we can get FFG to create something we would actually want to see and use our voice to support their company and their products.

I will also be posting this up in Strike to Stun. If there is a fan-based movement, I'll email the information to FFG and see if we can get things moving. I have a feeling though, Ynenn will already know its coming.

I fully support that idea.

Apart of having a soft spot for "evil" races, books containing such knowledge would be a great help for me in creating some very unique and special evil characters that could cross my players on many occasions.

If this is only possible, please FFG make future supplements so we can not only use the monsters as cannon fodder to the players, but also as a playable races themselves, and much more.

2-nd ed had it, and it was great.

Totally and utterly with you on this and blow the cost!! It would not only allow people to play a dark campagin but allow for players to start a good campagin and become corrupt followers of darkness. On top of that it would create interesting monsters/npcs for standard games with far more flexability. Its a total win win! even if it was the same cost as the core i would be there with bells on! One thing i would like would be a full magic for the dark side included with spells going thru rank 1-5 for use in normal campagins because the normal magic supplement is to be realeased first (if its not already included in there!)

I'm a fan of this BUT I would want FFG to come out and say "there's light and dark games" your GM has full authority on what races you are allowed to play depending on his campaign. The LAST thing I want is to run a Convention or store game where people have come up with 99 lame ideas as to why there's a choas warrior in a party of humans, dwarves, and elves.

I think it would be a BLAST to play from the other side, I just think I don't want 101 silly reasons to mix said parties.

Sinister said:

In any game i have ever played the GM has always had full authority in what is allowed or not, as it is his world/campagin that he has taken alot of time to produce for the players, i dont feel ffg would need to make a solid statement renforcing this fact. If your running a game post in advance allowed races... if people cant read i doubt they are roleplayers..

Ever since I read the story of Ikit Claw's rise to power, the lengthly tale of Nagash and the part about Plague Lord Skrolk gauging his own eyes out after seeing an incarnation of Nurgle, I've been fascinated by the "darker" side of Warhammer Fantasy.

So yeah, I'd hop on such a bandwagon. WHOO WOO

crimsonsun said:

Say all you want about GM authority, it doesn't stop the power munchkins from trying. I play with many quality players that understand theme, but there's also the local store guys, who just want a reason to be a badass under any circumstances.

Even though I didn't allow Half Orc Barbarian Forsakers into my 3.5 game, it didn't stop someone every time I started a game, from bringing that concept up. (Let me guess, you became a half orc because the orcs took your mom and had their way with her....never heard that one before *rolls eyes*. )

I don't have a problems saying no, or indeed enforcing it, I have a problem with a Power Gamer just brooaching the subject. In other words the should have common enough sense not to suggest playing a skaven assassin in the party of humans and elves, but sadly, they will do so. and yes, this WILL open that can of worms. Maybe not in the private game at my house, cause those are hand picked gamers but most certainly at the local shop on saturdays. There's always one.

Don't get me wrong though. I'd love to be an chaos warrior, it would be a blast. I'm just saying one of the benefits of this game is saying "yes" to the players, and that's going to create a definite "no" situation if I'm trying to run a good guys hero game.

I am glad to see so much support in the last few hours. Maybe I should join strike to stun and post it over there as well. I am serious about trying everything in our power to push ffg in this direction. The first key is getting as many people on board with it as possible, so please, do not just read the post. If you like the idea, weigh in. Your voice adds to the likelihood of a product like this being made available to the public on an official level rather than home brews!

I think this is a fine idea, I loved the Shadow of the Horned Rat included rules for playing as Skaven. I also think that a lot of crossover could be achieved with the MMO players via this route as well, so for me it would be a win/win.

T

I agree it is a total win- win for everyone.

148 views and eight replies? Are you guys with this idea or not! Come on. Even if you are deeply against the idea you could at least post some thoughts. A good dialogue could improve the idea. Shoot them out. I am sure there is some forum etiquette I am breaking here so I will not keep ramming this idea foreward, just let you guys dip in, but come on people, if you like it, just take a sec and post yes.

Sure, I think it would be fun to have the opportunity to play the baddies.

One hitch that I do see, however, is that it seems more problematic to me to have multi-racial 'bad' parties than 'good/neutral' ones. The different 'bad' races are just very different from one another. Now, perhaps dark elves and chaos - that would work. But, dark elves and orcs - not so much. Skaven are also an odd bunch to bring in. I'm sure an inventive GM can make anything happen, but I think much of it would feel contrived - but that's just me.

Back in the long dark time of v1, there were the original Realms of Chaos supplements which provided rules for warband campaigns. They were much more WFB-inspired. For this conversation, the interesting element was that it introduced ways in which a Chaos champion could become favored by his patron deity and begin his long road to becoming a Daemon Prince. There were all these mutations and gifts; it was pretty neat. (I don't have the v2 RoC, so you'll have to tell me if it had something similar). Anyway, a rekindling of some of that would be in order.

Not really a fan. Rules for playing the dark side included as an appendix in a book are OK with me, but an entire hefty expensive box? Wouldn't buy it. To me, the Old World is a bad and dangerous place for the "good" side, which is what makes it fun. Playing as the other side seems to me like a cop-out (similarly, I don't like the idea behind Chaos over Old World). It's just not my Warhammer.

I think an important part of the game is fighting against and being afraid of the monsters. Not being a monster whose main purpose in life is to kill people for giggles while being too stupid to be afraid. And I say this as someone who really really likes Skaven. Pass.

I'd rather see something similar to the Children of the Horned Rat book from 2nd edition, which give rules for skaven adversaries, background AND rules for skaven PCs

Ferozstein said:

Agree with you.

Call me wussy, but I think I don't really enjoy playing the clear baddies or goodies. What I really enjoy now is when the good might easily turn out to be evil in certain aspect, and vice versa. Those shades of grey, exactly. And I don't need any 'evil campaign' boxed sets for that.

Sinister said:

Sorry for offtop, but THIS ^

Can I steal the quoted part of Your post Sinister?

I would like to put that in my sig

I do think some of you are missing the point. If you don't want to use the baddies as more than that, the set would offer that as well. I also mentioned how it should and could include careers, actions, etc on how to deal with those baddies and how to create powerful baddies of your own from these sets. It would also have a bestiary section and a way to generate higher, more powerful evil things (like giving experience levels to monsters in DnD for those who don't want to use it straight up).

Of course, if you look at evil as flat little idiots who fear nothing and spend all day, slaughtering, slaughtering, slaughtering, well, that is the realm of a demon not a person (or even a skaven). There are plenty of opportunities to play the game from the "darker" side and still live up to the spirit of the "light" game itself. Sure, if you go bland evil it can be all about tromping towns or whatever you want to do with it, but that's not really evil, that's some imitation of what evil is perceived as. A Vampire count for instance has his own drives, passions and goals. Sure he may lord over large tracks of land, but he is not, after all lining every single person up to drink them. There are way more story possibilities than that.

I ran a campaign where the Skaven, under threat of their own homes being annihilated by forces of chaos actually saved a very important city in the Borderlands as well as protecting a Human Queen for a short while. We ended the campaign shortly there after, but I wouldn't trade that experience for all the world as it was a fun game. I posted this just as an example of taking a different approach not only with Evil, but Warhammer as well.

Also this set would allow for cross conversion work such as I want to play a Witch Hunter who has been touched by chaos. Well, the set would provide ways to simply be touched by chaos via the mechanisms of corruption and the like.

2e had all these mechanisms in place if you really think about it: The Tome of Corruption, The Skaven Book (which I can never remember the title of), Night's Dark Masters, they just weren't nearly as clearly defined. These books not only gave you ideas of how to run them as bad guys, but ways you could actually play them as well if you wanted to.

The overall idea for the product is to please everybody: It will give us tool for those "light-siders" to run the game with their great tracks of enemies (with action cards for them now since they would be in the box), and those who want to run a party of Vampires, Skaven or the like could do so with impunity.

I agree with many of the above people who posted that the party cards would be a way to direct evil bands. I don't see (at least in my fluff) why a Vampire, a Norsca Berserker, and a Gutter Runner would walk into a bar together, per say. Of course, maybe someone could come up with a reason. Distinct lines could easily be drawn, but a lot of that should be left up the GM, however it would be in the GM'S guide on how to manage these things. Also, a Vampire or Skaven running in a party of Knights of the Grail wouldn't really work either (unless of course, they were talking to the hag, then that would be a totally different story). Again, its all in how you tell it and that's why it would take a GM book, to guide players through the path and to entreat them to look at Warhammer a little differently, or how to use the tool for more of the same old, same old.

phobiandarkmoon said:

That's what I'm talking about, but instead of outlining just Skaven, it would get lumped in with a few others and be a set. This way, it has a broader appeal. A box set on just Skaven will just hit the Skaven market, that's it. It has no other tie. That means it wouldn't sell nearly as well as a set that contained all three. This is wise business wise, but it is also wise because it exposes people to more parts of the genre, more avenues to look at than what they have ever looked at before. So I am merely suggesting they put like with like and print a box that contains multiple tracks of evil instead of just one.

Ultimately, if they break them up into smaller boxes, fine, just as long as each type is playable.

commoner said:

Children Of The Horned Rat.

And to all those that say "My players are not interested in playing evil character", "We play to fight chaos", "I'm not into evil":

No one is saying You can't play as You like, or that You get any less of usual information.

Same as in previous editions we will get some books on evil races sooner or later.

And if You were to choose, what would You like more to find in those books:

only usual pregenerated monsters

or

the basic monster stats plus number of creation points for creating a monster (depending on a clan, status, etc.), some monster careers, action cards, talents (that can be used for creating unique mobs, expand the existing ones, or playing an evil race), AND a few pregenerated monters for quick reference (for usual purposes).

For me it would be very handy to have such additional tools, and be able to actually fully create a monster that have more than just simple line of stats. Monster with a name, monster with a purpose of his own, monster that will cross my players on more than one occasion, monster created for something more than just to die by the hands of the players.

I'm not interested in tools to play chaos or "evil" things - however what I'd love was some cool scenario ideas to allow the chaos, Skaven, undead, whathaveyou to come of more interesting and less onesided, maybe by turning things on their heads.

Stuff like: Maybe the evil corpse robbing necromancer isn't so bad once they realize he's using the corpses to fight of Skaven in the sewers or a vampire or Skaven might approach the characters for help in matters of mutual interest.

Pure evil (or just simply statted monsters) makes for less interesting roleplaying than having to work with or try to figure out what their ambiguous motives are and having to decide whether or not to trust them (at least for a while).

As much as I love Chaos and the Undead in WFRP I would never allow them to be playable. I'd buy a Dark Core set for sure but it would never be used.

Making these two forces into PCs just weakens them far too much for the setting to handle.

I'm so with you on this that I actually called for it before the game came out.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=149&efcid=3&efidt=202070

I also think this is a great idea. I'm not sure that chaos would be a race exactly, but I'm nitpicking. I like this!

LordPasty said:

LOL. Yeah, it is a bit nit-picky, but it is was the most concise way to describe playing a human who, for whatever reason (by choice or not) has been somehow effected by chaos. Obviously you wouldn't start out at rank one as a full blown Chaos Warrior, but the possibility to go that way would be there. This type of flavor explored in 2e with Norsca and a bit in the Border Princes. These places have people who aren't necessarily part of the Chaos Horde, but could go that way based on the choices you make. You could even establish these types of patterns anywhere really and would be a tool for Game Masters to add so much more depth to their encounters with those teetering, fallen or falling.

@42!

I know you say you may never use this kind of box set, but again, what about as a GM? Would it not be a good tool for you as well instead, as Sunatet said be more interesting than a flat, generic stat-line which a Bestiary normally gives you. I understand the need for a Bestiary in a game and yes it could be increased to include some form of monkeying around with statlines with points, but why not go all the way make it so you could literally play a game of it so a GM could strip down what they need for their game and use those components during encounters that actually suits them.

LordPasty said:

A kurgan!! A tribal human from the chaos wastes, rules were in ToC. I think it would be an awsome edition just if you were using it to create custom monsters, whats more it would give us more options! and im my opinion options are what makes a good roleplay a GREAT roleplay.