Palp Aces success also cannot be attributed only to Palp - you could pretty readily say there's not many other lists making succesful use of Palp which suggests the aces are bringing a lot to the table.

Absolutely, and this is predicted by both the Palpatine math and the Aces math.

I'd be interested to see what the statistical difference is between Palp Aces and just Triple Aces in terms of performance, if able to adjust for player skill?

Triple Scouts' post-cut performance is 130% this Regionals season, which is decidedly better than Palp Aces. Unfortunately it is difficult if not impossible to differentiate player skill from list quality with the data that is publicly gathered. With enough data points however, player skill will tend to converge. I have pulled 121 Palp Aces and 75 Triple Scouts into my tracking spreadsheet so far.

One question: you say the Lambda is worth 16-17 points based on its stats and dial, which seems reasonable. In the Palp shuttle instance is there not a case to say that the ship itself is worth even less because it'll spend more time staying out of combat in order to protect Palpatine? If so this would need to be taken into account in the final calculations.

You can certainly make that argument, and in fact for specific game tape you should look at how effective the Shuttle was outside of just using Palp for dice modifications.

It's in my backlog to do a comprehensive analysis of many game logs to empirically determine Palp's value and the Shuttle's value. If I ever get around to actually doing this, I would probably crowdsource the data collection from vassal games, and then do the math myself.

Triple Scouts you mean Triple Aces, right?

So would you say at least there's no clear evidence that Palp Aces outperforms non-Palp Aces?

Triple Scouts you mean Triple Aces, right?

So would you say at least there's no clear evidence that Palp Aces outperforms non-Palp Aces?

No. If you look through the Regionals results thread, triple Jumpmasters make the final cut very often and are the best performing archetype this season.

Stay on the leader originally asked if palp aces were better than triple aces, not scouts. I assume MJ just misread it

While MJ does a good analysis, it has a fatal flaw...

...

So lets take an example and say The Emperor is used as follows throughout the entire course of a game:

• Saves 35 point Soontir Fel from 1 damage.
• Saves 36 point Darth Vader from 2 damage. (LW+ATC+EU)
• does one additional shield damage onto an opposing 26 point Omega Leader.

...

...the entire thing is predicated on the Lambda surviving long enough to be used in combat four times .

If the Lambda has survived the merge into combat for four turns ...the enemy is doing it wrong. Unless the opponent is a very special kind of incompetent, the Lambda gets two turns after the merge, tops , before it's toast - three turns, maybe, presuming ol' sparky burning some of his uses on the shuttle's own defense (but then those turns aren't contributing to the above numbers, anyway). I've certainly played more than 1 game where Lambda only got the one turn of use, in first combat, before the enemy blew it away with a torpedo alpha strike.

It's easier said than done to concentrate on the lambda to start with.

Chasing a stalling shuttle on the opposite corner leaves you very open to attacks from the aces. There are lists that can take the punishment for a turn or two but they're often left wanting when they remember that fel/whisper/inq/ryad are fantastic end game pilots in their own right.

maybe i should have condensed my post so you didnt cut it up like that and not read the next line.

Palpy doesnt need the shuttle to be in a specific spot, unlike anything else the shuttle can do. With that in mind its insanely easier to fly because you dont NEED it to get arc on something. When youre trying to use it offensively thats when its inability to turn becomes a problem.

I'm not going to quote that massive math analysis of Palp, but I agree that it was a solid one since it's basically said what I've been saying all along: Palp is a powerful card, probably worth a little more than it's point cost, but it's not nearly as overpowered as everyone complains that it is.

But Vineheart brings up a simple fix that I've always said was the answer: make Palpatine's ability have a range of 3. Then the OCP and it's maneuver dial that looks like it belongs on a capital ship would put some bounds on Palp's usage.

Range 3 is pretty easy to stay inside of but it would at least force you to actually move the thing.

I see way too many palpaces where they'll have the Inquis start facing the shuttle, shuttle bumps him, he does a 1hard to face the battlefield, shuttle bumps him again, he moves 1soft to face the enemy directly, shuttle bumps again, now he leaves to assume his sniping position and shuttle does a stop move/baffles.

Aces arent even near the bloody thing at this point since Inquis rocketed off and the other ace (soontir usually) wasnt near it to begin with as he was flanking.

Triple Scouts you mean Triple Aces, right?

So would you say at least there's no clear evidence that Palp Aces outperforms non-Palp Aces?

Oops, I mis-read. What I stated was correct, it just was not the exact answer to your question.

There actually is very direct evidence that Palp Aces is far superior to Imperial Aces (see below). The Imperial Aces archetype are solidly tier 2. They are good enough to make the cut occasionally, but post-cut they under-perform the tier 1 lists, and many other tier 2 lists as well.

If you look through the Regionals results thread, triple Jumpmasters make the final cut very often and are the best performing archetype this season.

Actually....

Here's the raw data in non-visual format. There may be a few events I haven't fully updated yet.

Archetype occurrence performance

Dengaroo 1.4% 220.5%

Crack A-wings 0.7% 178.5%

TIE Crackswarm 6.8% 152.1%

Triple Scouts 12.6% 130.4%

VT-49 + Ace 5.2% 123.0%

BroBots 4.2% 122.0%

Misc Scum 4.0% 111.0%

Palp Aces 24.5% 107.0%

Punishing One 3.5% 92.8%

Misc Rebels 7.8% 89.6%

Dash + 3.9% 87.5%

Rebel Aces 3.8% 81.8%

3+ Scum TLT 1.2% 78.4%

YT-1300 1.4% 75.9%

Imp Aces 4.7% 73.7%

Rebel Swarm 2.7% 70.6%

2 Scout+ 4.9% 70.0%

Misc Imperial 5.3% 66.1%

Scum Swarm 0.6% 47.1%

... Jesus Christ.

It's worth pointing out that the performance numbers for the less common lists will be less accurate due to small sample size- May I ask at which point you'd consider a list to have enough presence to estimate it's effectiveness within an acceptable margin of error?

It's worth pointing out that the performance numbers for the less common lists will be less accurate due to small sample size- May I ask at which point you'd consider a list to have enough presence to estimate it's effectiveness within an acceptable margin of error?

Great question, difficult answer. I'll see about calculating the standard deviation for the performance of each, but it will require exporting the Google sheet data and processing it in Matlab. Sounds like fun, but no ETA at present.

Triple Scouts you mean Triple Aces, right?

So would you say at least there's no clear evidence that Palp Aces outperforms non-Palp Aces?

Oops, I mis-read. What I stated was correct, it just was not the exact answer to your question.

There actually is very direct evidence that Palp Aces is far superior to Imperial Aces (see below). The Imperial Aces archetype are solidly tier 2. They are good enough to make the cut occasionally, but post-cut they under-perform the tier 1 lists, and many other tier 2 lists as well.

If you look through the Regionals results thread, triple Jumpmasters make the final cut very often and are the best performing archetype this season.

Actually....

Here's the raw data in non-visual format. There may be a few events I haven't fully updated yet.

Archetype occurrence performance

Dengaroo 1.4% 220.5%

Crack A-wings 0.7% 178.5%

TIE Crackswarm 6.8% 152.1%

Triple Scouts 12.6% 130.4%

VT-49 + Ace 5.2% 123.0%

BroBots 4.2% 122.0%

Misc Scum 4.0% 111.0%

Palp Aces 24.5% 107.0%

Punishing One 3.5% 92.8%

Misc Rebels 7.8% 89.6%

Dash + 3.9% 87.5%

Rebel Aces 3.8% 81.8%

3+ Scum TLT 1.2% 78.4%

YT-1300 1.4% 75.9%

Imp Aces 4.7% 73.7%

Rebel Swarm 2.7% 70.6%

2 Scout+ 4.9% 70.0%

Misc Imperial 5.3% 66.1%

Scum Swarm 0.6% 47.1%

Did that include data from the Vancouver Regional? There was 5 Dengaroo builds but 4 of them did not make the cut and placed 27th, 46th, 56th, and 67th.

I also probably missed it in a previous post, but how do you calculate occurrence and performance?

Did that include data from the Vancouver Regional? There was 5 Dengaroo builds but 4 of them did not make the cut and placed 27th, 46th, 56th, and 67th.

I also probably missed it in a previous post, but how do you calculate occurrence and performance?

It does include data from the Vancouver Regional. Squads that don't make it into the cut aren't reflected one way or the other in the stats. Your #1 finish with Dengaroo was the only one out of the 5 that contributed to the stats.

No, you haven't missed it, that's the first time I have publicly posted all the raw data.

"Occurrence" is simply how often a given archetype is reported making it into the cut. It is proportionately weighted by attendance at each tournament.

"Performance" is how far the squad makes it after the cut, again weighted by attendance at each event. For example, the numerical performance for cuts of various sizes are:

Top 4 Cut

Winner: 200%

Runner-Up: 100%

Top 4: 50%

Top 8 Cut

Winner: 320%

Runner-Up: 160%

Top 4: 80%

The percentages add up such that the average performance for any given event must be exactly 100%.

Am I the only one with this thread title stuck in his head to the tune of 'Blame Canada!' From the South Park Movie?

times have changed

the game is getting worse

the dice results don't matter

aces just cannot be burst

should we bring some conner nets?

of bring some feedback, please?

Or should we learn to fly like an elite?

no

Nerf palpatine!

Nerf palpatine!

he's a monster and obscene

and he'll make you kill Chris Lee

(DO IT!)

nerf palpatine!

nerf palpatine!

Palpatine is only once a round.

Also is fine as is. Very strong, but very costly to match.

This is actually incorrect. Palpatine is very undercosted. I've been taking notes on how much value I get from Palpatine.

Squad #1: OGP with Palp, FCS. 31 point Inquisitor. Vessery with x7, Juke, Stealth Device.

Game #1 with Squad #1 I got 13.5 points of value from Palpatine. I rolled very well, didn't need Palpatine that much, and my opponent conceded so it was a quick game.

Game #2 with Squad #1 I got 37.3 points of value from Palpatine. I even flew the Inquisitor through a 2 hit cluster mine and Palpatined it to hit blank.

Game #3 with Squad #1 my opponent offered me the intentional draw and stated that if I did not take it he'd concede. The ID put me in first place, challenge coin #6 haha.

Squad #2: OGP with Palp and Baffles. Juke x7 Vessery, Juke x7 Maarek Stele.

Game #1 with squad #2 I got the bye.

Game #2 with squad #2 I lost. Faced a Hyper Bossk party bus. Still got 25.9 points of value from Palpatine.

Game #3 with squad #2 I got 38.1 points of value from Palpatine.

My average Palpatine value across these 4 games is 28.7. Subtract Palpatine's 8 points of cost from this of course, and I'm flying 20.7 bonus points. I'm flying a 120.7 point list on average in a 100 point format, and that's counting that first game that gimped my average.

More data to come, depends on when I next play my Juke x7 Vessery Inquisitor Palp Aces squad, which will depend on if the hyper Bossk party bus player shows up haha.

Round three Oicunn pulled down 2420 points!

Round four was a bye, which is a win, and because it was because of Oicunn that's another hundred points! Round five my opponent conceded so he got the fifty points plus another hundred for forcing a concession.

On average that's like 500 points in playing with!