I love how people think the value of a ship lies in its hull and shields alone. The attack dice mean nothing. The defense dice mean nothing. Pilot ability and dial mean nothing. Congratulations Paragoomba, you know how to do simple arithmetic, but you are not truly calculating the value of Palpatine. You're grossly overestimating it.

Might he be undercosted? Yes, but not nearly by what you are saying.

Actually, that's kind of precisely what he is doing.

He's making an assumption that if Soontir costs 35pts and has 3 Hull/Shields then each point of damage he prevents is worth 11.7pts - those 11.7pts being the weighted cost of all the red dice/green dice/dial/actions etc of Soontir Fel.

I'm not saying his system is a good one, but it's at least doing that.

The best response I've seen is from the guy who said "yeah, that's great, now are you calculating the value you get from all your other synergies and upgrades?". Like, when you boost out of arc because of Push The Limit are you assigning a value generated based on average amount of damage you didn't take as a result? When you reroll a blank to a hit with Howlrunner are you assigning a value based on how much of your opponent's value you removed?

Without context to other common effects the 'value' generated by Palp is just a number.

PGS is using a different method to calculate Palpatine's value than I use.

First off, modeling synergistic effects such as Push the Limit with access to Boost and Barrel Roll is complicated, but it can be done. However that is an independent discussion. Regardless of what "extra stuff" a pilot can do beyond mere dice modification, a ship's value is roughly* proportional to the square root of: [(its expected durability) times (its expected damage output)].

Again, this holds regardless of the "non-jousting" factors such as boost, barrel roll, and many other pilot or ship abilities. Simply put, if a ship survives longer or puts out more damage, that ship is worth more**. Double a ship's durability, and its value is increased by a factor of 1.41x.

So lets take an example and say The Emperor is used as follows throughout the entire course of a game:

• Saves 35 point Soontir Fel from 1 damage.
• Saves 36 point Darth Vader from 2 damage. (LW+ATC+EU)
• does one additional shield damage onto an opposing 26 point Omega Leader.

We can get into some deeper discussion as to whether each of these ships is actually worth their points to begin with, but lets start with the simplifying assumption that they are exactly worth their points. So now lets estimate what these 4 dice mods are worth.

• Fel: 35*(4/3)^0.5 - 35 = +5.4 points***
• Vader: 36*(7/5)^0.5 - 36 = +6.6 points
• Omega Leader: 26 - 26*(3/4)^0.5 = +3.5 points

Total value: about 15.5 points. So, Palpatine should cost at least 15 points right? Not exactly. Once The Emperor upgrade card is equipped, the crew cannot be disassociated with the ship it is on (short of literal Boba Fett disintegrations). The Imperial Shuttle is the only ship that can carry The Emperor, and it is not worth anywhere close to its 21 point price of entry. The Shuttle is probably only worth about 16-17 points given its dial and recent additions that have increased the game's overall power curve (Inquisitor, Omega Leader, Contracted Scouts, Dengaroo etc). So, the total value of the Shuttle + Emperor for the above example, is around 16.5 points + 15.5 points = 32 points. The combo costs 29 points, so for this game the ship+crew was punching above its weight by about 3 points. That's good and can make the difference in high level games, but this particular example does not demonstrate that Palpatine is overwhelmingly broken.

However, most game logs will show that Palpatine when paired with Imperial Aces has a value well in excess of 15 points, and sometimes as high as 30 points. If Palpatine survives for many rounds, then his value becomes extraordinarily high. There is strong evidence that Palpatine is severely undercosted when paired with Imperial Aces based on analytical game theory, numerical analysis of actual game tape, and overall meta results (see below). Note that the ideal solution is not necessarily one that merely increases his cost, but that is an altogether separate discussion.

* For small-skirmish scenarios such as X-wing the cost : value curve is slightly more complicated than the (durability*damage output)^0.5 relationship above.

** This gets more complicated for support ships that derive most or all of their damage from indirect contributions, but in general, this too can be modeled.

*** The value contribution towards Fel is actually worth more than the calculation here, as his durability as a function of remaining hull is nonlinear: the first hit (which Palpatine generally protects) is worth more as it is behind 4AGI via Stealth Device.

It's simple, since game result for tournies are published, we have this magical thing called "empirical data" at our fingertips. If Palp Aces was truly as overpowered as PGS and others hypothesize it is, then Palp Aces should be consistently winning tournaments and much higher rates than other lists.

Oh wait, but it's not.....

First, some generalized fundamental rules:

• The more powerful a list is, the more often it should generally make the cut.
• There is an inverse relationship between how popular a list is, and how well it does after the cut. This is largely driven by several factors:
  • Other players build their own lists and practice their tactics specifically against the popular lists. If a popular list has a weakness then other players will quickly find it and exploit it.
  • Conversely, popular lists do not hold any "surprises" that can suddenly spring traps on unwitting opponents.
  • As a list gains popularity more players play the list, so the player skill of the players playing the list generally goes down relative to the initial "pioneers" that make the list popular. The "pioneers" are generally high caliber players in their own right.

That said, I have been compiling Regionals squad archetype metadata results, but I have not yet published them. Here are the results for Palp Aces over the entire course of the Regionals Season:

• Palp aces represents 24.5% of the lists that make the cut, followed by Triple Scouts (12.6%), Miscellaneous Rebels (7.8%), TIE Crackswarm (6.8%), and then everything else.
• Palp Aces' performance post-cut (107%) is slightly higher than exactly "average" performance (100%), and a hair higher than the performance of the squads that have been reported (105.6%).

In other words:

• Palp Aces is making it into the cut at a disproportionately high rate relative to other squads.
• Despite all the negative feedback pulling Palp Aces down, the archetype is still performing slightly above average when it gets into the cut.

... the conclusion is that the Palp Aces archetype is extremely powerful and has no clear weakness. It is not necessarily the best archetype in the game, but no other list in the current meta has anywhere close to the same level of popularity or has made it through the meta gauntlet and survived. Dengaroo could be better, but due to its relatively new popularity it is difficult to make this argument based strictly on empirical data.

I'm willing to grant that perhaps "kill the **** Lambda" doesn't count as a clear weakness. I'm further willing to concede that implicit in MJ's analysis is the idea that one should kill the **** Lambda. Finally, I'd even be willing to concede that there really ought to be more than one route to success against a popular meta-list.

However, after all that concession, I still think that MJ's analysis should have -- at least once, and explicitly -- advised "kill the **** Lambda."

In case it's unclear: "Kill the **** Lambda." I know that NoVa Squadron Podcast told everybody, a long time ago, "ignore the shuttle," but they were either yanking your dicks, or they were just plain wrong. Kill the **** Lambda.

guaranteed, dice ignoring damage is a pretty **** clear weakness

but, in the context of competitive play with Jm5ks running around, it's not a very relevant one

Right now Palp Aces is dominent, but it's not solely because of Palpatine.

Wave 8 introduced the Uboat/Jumpmaster ordinance carrier. This, more than anything else, scared off Rebel control and regen lists which acted as a good check to Palp Ace squads. The recent FAQ included a "soft nerf" which will have a positive flow on effect.

Right now I've noted more and more Rebel lists creeping back into the meta, with the Ghost/Dash and Corran/Biggs pairing becoming more popular. I love flying Dash/Ghost - one of my favorite lists at the moment.

FYI yes I do frequently fly Palp Ace squads and in no way regard it as a auto-win option. It does take some thought and skill to make truly effective. It can be easily countered if you know how to fly against it. Just practice.

I used to fly Imps without Palp before I got the card. And yes, it was harder and took more concentration. Palpatine is more insurance than significant game changer.

There are some good lists and strategies that act as natural counters to Palp Aces (not just Uboats) - I suggest exploring those.

I think this is a great comment. Palpatine is a symptom (and a bad one!) but not the disease. JumpMaster is the issue here as it has knocked so much other stuff which could control Palp out of contention.

This is a completely ridiculous comment and an example of Imperial players and their obnoxious greed/inability to see just how broken the ships they fly are.

Palp Aces kills off all of the U-Boat counters. It goes both ways, and a meta where Palp Aces was eliminated and U-Boats were left standing would be an easier one to deal with as all you'd have to do is bid to PS 4. Hell, triple Defender kicks U-Boat ass and those are just PS 1 ones.

I don't play Imperial, I play rebel! - and I stick by my comment! Palp is good, perhaps too good but I think U-boats are still the current problem in the meta. While Palp was good in the pre-U-boat meta, we still saw plenty of other builds and those builds were competitive - think rebel regen, or fat turrets or k-wings or whatever. Where are all these builds now? Gone because they can't stand up to the alpha strike from the combo of cards on the U-boat.

You missed his point completely.

Palp aces have counters

U-boats have counters

However Palp aces kill off U-boat counters and viceversa (that's the big issue).

A meta with u-boats and no Palpatine will be just as healthy as a meta with Palpatine and no u-boats, so why are the u-boats a bigger problem than Palpatine?

I agree with your assessment but I think U-boats makes more stuff unviable in competitive play than Palp does

I love how people think the value of a ship lies in its hull and shields alone. The attack dice mean nothing. The defense dice mean nothing. Pilot ability and dial mean nothing. Congratulations Paragoomba, you know how to do simple arithmetic, but you are not truly calculating the value of Palpatine. You're grossly overestimating it.

Might he be undercosted? Yes, but not nearly by what you are saying.

Actually, that's kind of precisely what he is doing.

He's making an assumption that if Soontir costs 35pts and has 3 Hull/Shields then each point of damage he prevents is worth 11.7pts - those 11.7pts being the weighted cost of all the red dice/green dice/dial/actions etc of Soontir Fel.

I'm not saying his system is a good one, but it's at least doing that.

The best response I've seen is from the guy who said "yeah, that's great, now are you calculating the value you get from all your other synergies and upgrades?". Like, when you boost out of arc because of Push The Limit are you assigning a value generated based on average amount of damage you didn't take as a result? When you reroll a blank to a hit with Howlrunner are you assigning a value based on how much of your opponent's value you removed?

Without context to other common effects the 'value' generated by Palp is just a number.

PGS is using a different method to calculate Palpatine's value than I use.

First off, modeling synergistic effects such as Push the Limit with access to Boost and Barrel Roll is complicated, but it can be done. However that is an independent discussion. Regardless of what "extra stuff" a pilot can do beyond mere dice modification, a ship's value is roughly* proportional to the square root of: [(its expected durability) times (its expected damage output)].

Again, this holds regardless of the "non-jousting" factors such as boost, barrel roll, and many other pilot or ship abilities. Simply put, if a ship survives longer or puts out more damage, that ship is worth more**. Double a ship's durability, and its value is increased by a factor of 1.41x.

So lets take an example and say The Emperor is used as follows throughout the entire course of a game:

• Saves 35 point Soontir Fel from 1 damage.
• Saves 36 point Darth Vader from 2 damage. (LW+ATC+EU)
• does one additional shield damage onto an opposing 26 point Omega Leader.

We can get into some deeper discussion as to whether each of these ships is actually worth their points to begin with, but lets start with the simplifying assumption that they are exactly worth their points. So now lets estimate what these 4 dice mods are worth.

• Fel: 35*(4/3)^0.5 - 35 = +5.4 points***
• Vader: 36*(7/5)^0.5 - 36 = +6.6 points
• Omega Leader: 26 - 26*(3/4)^0.5 = +3.5 points

Total value: about 15.5 points. So, Palpatine should cost at least 15 points right? Not exactly. Once The Emperor upgrade card is equipped, the crew cannot be disassociated with the ship it is on (short of literal Boba Fett disintegrations). The Imperial Shuttle is the only ship that can carry The Emperor, and it is not worth anywhere close to its 21 point price of entry. The Shuttle is probably only worth about 16-17 points given its dial and recent additions that have increased the game's overall power curve (Inquisitor, Omega Leader, Contracted Scouts, Dengaroo etc). So, the total value of the Shuttle + Emperor for the above example, is around 16.5 points + 15.5 points = 32 points. The combo costs 29 points, so for this game the ship+crew was punching above its weight by about 3 points. That's good and can make the difference in high level games, but this particular example does not demonstrate that Palpatine is overwhelmingly broken.

However, most game logs will show that Palpatine when paired with Imperial Aces has a value well in excess of 15 points, and sometimes as high as 30 points. If Palpatine survives for many rounds, then his value becomes extraordinarily high. There is strong evidence that Palpatine is severely undercosted when paired with Imperial Aces based on analytical game theory, numerical analysis of actual game tape, and overall meta results (see below). Note that the ideal solution is not necessarily one that merely increases his cost, but that is an altogether separate discussion.

* For small-skirmish scenarios such as X-wing the cost : value curve is slightly more complicated than the (durability*damage output)^0.5 relationship above.

** This gets more complicated for support ships that derive most or all of their damage from indirect contributions, but in general, this too can be modeled.

*** The value contribution towards Fel is actually worth more than the calculation here, as his durability as a function of remaining hull is nonlinear: the first hit (which Palpatine generally protects) is worth more as it is behind 4AGI via Stealth Device.

It's simple, since game result for tournies are published, we have this magical thing called "empirical data" at our fingertips. If Palp Aces was truly as overpowered as PGS and others hypothesize it is, then Palp Aces should be consistently winning tournaments and much higher rates than other lists.

Oh wait, but it's not.....

First, some generalized fundamental rules:

• The more powerful a list is, the more often it should generally make the cut.
• There is an inverse relationship between how popular a list is, and how well it does after the cut. This is largely driven by several factors:
  • Other players build their own lists and practice their tactics specifically against the popular lists. If a popular list has a weakness then other players will quickly find it and exploit it.
  • Conversely, popular lists do not hold any "surprises" that can suddenly spring traps on unwitting opponents.
  • As a list gains popularity more players play the list, so the player skill of the players playing the list generally goes down relative to the initial "pioneers" that make the list popular. The "pioneers" are generally high caliber players in their own right.

That said, I have been compiling Regionals squad archetype metadata results, but I have not yet published them. Here are the results for Palp Aces over the entire course of the Regionals Season:

• Palp aces represents 24.5% of the lists that make the cut, followed by Triple Scouts (12.6%), Miscellaneous Rebels (7.8%), TIE Crackswarm (6.8%), and then everything else.
• Palp Aces' performance post-cut (107%) is slightly higher than exactly "average" performance (100%), and a hair higher than the performance of the squads that have been reported (105.6%).

In other words:

• Palp Aces is making it into the cut at a disproportionately high rate relative to other squads.
• Despite all the negative feedback pulling Palp Aces down, the archetype is still performing slightly above average when it gets into the cut.

... the conclusion is that the Palp Aces archetype is extremely powerful and has no clear weakness. It is not necessarily the best archetype in the game, but no other list in the current meta has anywhere close to the same level of popularity or has made it through the meta gauntlet and survived. Dengaroo could be better, but due to its relatively new popularity it is difficult to make this argument based strictly on empirical data.

Point of order, but the Lambda is not the only ship that can carry Palpatine. It is, however, the only ship that can carry him while allowing the fielding of two 30+ point aces alongside.

My apologies about the misattribution, Major Juggler.

I love how people think the value of a ship lies in its hull and shields alone. The attack dice mean nothing. The defense dice mean nothing. Pilot ability and dial mean nothing. Congratulations Paragoomba, you know how to do simple arithmetic, but you are not truly calculating the value of Palpatine. You're grossly overestimating it.

Might he be undercosted? Yes, but not nearly by what you are saying.

Actually, that's kind of precisely what he is doing.

He's making an assumption that if Soontir costs 35pts and has 3 Hull/Shields then each point of damage he prevents is worth 11.7pts - those 11.7pts being the weighted cost of all the red dice/green dice/dial/actions etc of Soontir Fel.

I'm not saying his system is a good one, but it's at least doing that.

The best response I've seen is from the guy who said "yeah, that's great, now are you calculating the value you get from all your other synergies and upgrades?". Like, when you boost out of arc because of Push The Limit are you assigning a value generated based on average amount of damage you didn't take as a result? When you reroll a blank to a hit with Howlrunner are you assigning a value based on how much of your opponent's value you removed?

Without context to other common effects the 'value' generated by Palp is just a number.

PGS is using a different method to calculate Palpatine's value than I use.

First off, modeling synergistic effects such as Push the Limit with access to Boost and Barrel Roll is complicated, but it can be done. However that is an independent discussion. Regardless of what "extra stuff" a pilot can do beyond mere dice modification, a ship's value is roughly* proportional to the square root of: [(its expected durability) times (its expected damage output)].

Again, this holds regardless of the "non-jousting" factors such as boost, barrel roll, and many other pilot or ship abilities. Simply put, if a ship survives longer or puts out more damage, that ship is worth more**. Double a ship's durability, and its value is increased by a factor of 1.41x.

So lets take an example and say The Emperor is used as follows throughout the entire course of a game:

• Saves 35 point Soontir Fel from 1 damage.
• Saves 36 point Darth Vader from 2 damage. (LW+ATC+EU)
• does one additional shield damage onto an opposing 26 point Omega Leader.

We can get into some deeper discussion as to whether each of these ships is actually worth their points to begin with, but lets start with the simplifying assumption that they are exactly worth their points. So now lets estimate what these 4 dice mods are worth.

• Fel: 35*(4/3)^0.5 - 35 = +5.4 points***
• Vader: 36*(7/5)^0.5 - 36 = +6.6 points
• Omega Leader: 26 - 26*(3/4)^0.5 = +3.5 points

Total value: about 15.5 points. So, Palpatine should cost at least 15 points right? Not exactly. Once The Emperor upgrade card is equipped, the crew cannot be disassociated with the ship it is on (short of literal Boba Fett disintegrations). The Imperial Shuttle is the only ship that can carry The Emperor, and it is not worth anywhere close to its 21 point price of entry. The Shuttle is probably only worth about 16-17 points given its dial and recent additions that have increased the game's overall power curve (Inquisitor, Omega Leader, Contracted Scouts, Dengaroo etc). So, the total value of the Shuttle + Emperor for the above example, is around 16.5 points + 15.5 points = 32 points. The combo costs 29 points, so for this game the ship+crew was punching above its weight by about 3 points. That's good and can make the difference in high level games, but this particular example does not demonstrate that Palpatine is overwhelmingly broken.

However, most game logs will show that Palpatine when paired with Imperial Aces has a value well in excess of 15 points, and sometimes as high as 30 points. If Palpatine survives for many rounds, then his value becomes extraordinarily high. There is strong evidence that Palpatine is severely undercosted when paired with Imperial Aces based on analytical game theory, numerical analysis of actual game tape, and overall meta results (see below). Note that the ideal solution is not necessarily one that merely increases his cost, but that is an altogether separate discussion.

* For small-skirmish scenarios such as X-wing the cost : value curve is slightly more complicated than the (durability*damage output)^0.5 relationship above.

** This gets more complicated for support ships that derive most or all of their damage from indirect contributions, but in general, this too can be modeled.

*** The value contribution towards Fel is actually worth more than the calculation here, as his durability as a function of remaining hull is nonlinear: the first hit (which Palpatine generally protects) is worth more as it is behind 4AGI via Stealth Device.

Great clarification, thank you.

The value "as high as 30 points" when paired with Imperial aces is, I believe, a statement that gets misinterpreted at times. Surely, you're not implying that Palpatine's point cost should be anywhere in that neighborhood, correct?

The value "as high as 30 points" when paired with Imperial aces is, I believe, a statement that gets misinterpreted at times. Surely, you're not implying that Palpatine's point cost should be anywhere in that neighborhood, correct?

Rather more a case of demonstrating the concept of "force multiplier", and how it is combinations that exacerbate the cost/return ratio.

Did MajorJuggler just come up in this thread and make a long-winded post with lots of numbers in it to pretty much just say:

Palpatine does not need to be nerfed. Scum already has a great anti-Palp tool named Boba Fett. The Rebels have no clear counter, but as Rebels, I've beaten Palp Aces, most consistently with a Ghost. The key, as noted above, is to kill Palpatine first. The shuttle isn't terribly agile, and stacking Hera with an Intelligence Agent helps with out maneuvering at least one Ace.

Palpatine does not need to be nerfed. Scum already has a great anti-Palp tool named Boba Fett. The Rebels have no clear counter, but as Rebels, I've beaten Palp Aces, most consistently with a Ghost. The key, as noted above, is to kill Palpatine first. The shuttle isn't terribly agile, and stacking Hera with an Intelligence Agent helps with out maneuvering at least one Ace.

As a Scum player, Boba is a lot less anti-Palpatine than you think. Unless you go to absurd lengths (YV-666 with Adv. Homing Missiles) in order to Boba the Emperor you need to get past the shuttle's shields. This means that in the best possible scenario the shuttle is already down to 4 hull. Realisticly, for the most common way to use Boba (Scout with Proton Torpedo), the shuttle gets down to 1-2 hp (shoot 1 plasma to remove shields, then proton). At that point it's probably better to just kill it off, rendering Boba moot.

I still think the numerical analysis is deeply flawed.

Palp Aces success also cannot be attributed only to Palp - you could pretty readily say there's not many other lists making succesful use of Palp which suggests the aces are bringing a lot to the table. I'd be interested to see what the statistical difference is between Palp Aces and just Triple Aces in terms of performance, if able to adjust for player skill?

Sky isn't going to fall, it's simply sinking deeper into Acewing.

I still think the numerical analysis is deeply flawed.

Palp Aces success also cannot be attributed only to Palp - you could pretty readily say there's not many other lists making succesful use of Palp which suggests the aces are bringing a lot to the table. I'd be interested to see what the statistical difference is between Palp Aces and just Triple Aces in terms of performance, if able to adjust for player skill?

Of course aces are important. Palp used defensively provides raw hp. 1 hp behind 3 greens and a token stack is obviously worth way more than 1 hp on a Ghost or decimator.

The Imperial Shuttle is the only ship that can carry The Emperor

Alas poor VT-49, thine name has passed into obscurity!

... the conclusion is that the Palp Aces archetype is extremely powerful and has no clear weakness.

Bad flying is one.

The Imperial Shuttle is the only ship that can carry The Emperor

Alas poor VT-49, thine name has passed into obscurity!

... the conclusion is that the Palp Aces archetype is extremely powerful and has no clear weakness.

Bad flying is one.

Getting blocked!

I have to hand it to JimbonX. He is easily the best troll on these forums, and I don't think he is even aware of it. That's talent..

Must try harder.

Cheers

Baaa

I love how people think the value of a ship lies in its hull and shields alone. The attack dice mean nothing. The defense dice mean nothing. Pilot ability and dial mean nothing. Congratulations Paragoomba, you know how to do simple arithmetic, but you are not truly calculating the value of Palpatine. You're grossly overestimating it.

Might he be undercosted? Yes, but not nearly by what you are saying.

Actually, that's kind of precisely what he is doing.

He's making an assumption that if Soontir costs 35pts and has 3 Hull/Shields then each point of damage he prevents is worth 11.7pts - those 11.7pts being the weighted cost of all the red dice/green dice/dial/actions etc of Soontir Fel.

I'm not saying his system is a good one, but it's at least doing that.

The best response I've seen is from the guy who said "yeah, that's great, now are you calculating the value you get from all your other synergies and upgrades?". Like, when you boost out of arc because of Push The Limit are you assigning a value generated based on average amount of damage you didn't take as a result? When you reroll a blank to a hit with Howlrunner are you assigning a value based on how much of your opponent's value you removed?

Without context to other common effects the 'value' generated by Palp is just a number.

PGS is using a different method to calculate Palpatine's value than I use.

First off, modeling synergistic effects such as Push the Limit with access to Boost and Barrel Roll is complicated, but it can be done. However that is an independent discussion. Regardless of what "extra stuff" a pilot can do beyond mere dice modification, a ship's value is roughly* proportional to the square root of: [(its expected durability) times (its expected damage output)].

Again, this holds regardless of the "non-jousting" factors such as boost, barrel roll, and many other pilot or ship abilities. Simply put, if a ship survives longer or puts out more damage, that ship is worth more**. Double a ship's durability, and its value is increased by a factor of 1.41x.

So lets take an example and say The Emperor is used as follows throughout the entire course of a game:

• Saves 35 point Soontir Fel from 1 damage.
• Saves 36 point Darth Vader from 2 damage. (LW+ATC+EU)
• does one additional shield damage onto an opposing 26 point Omega Leader.

We can get into some deeper discussion as to whether each of these ships is actually worth their points to begin with, but lets start with the simplifying assumption that they are exactly worth their points. So now lets estimate what these 4 dice mods are worth.

• Fel: 35*(4/3)^0.5 - 35 = +5.4 points***
• Vader: 36*(7/5)^0.5 - 36 = +6.6 points
• Omega Leader: 26 - 26*(3/4)^0.5 = +3.5 points

Total value: about 15.5 points. So, Palpatine should cost at least 15 points right? Not exactly. Once The Emperor upgrade card is equipped, the crew cannot be disassociated with the ship it is on (short of literal Boba Fett disintegrations). The Imperial Shuttle is the only ship that can carry The Emperor, and it is not worth anywhere close to its 21 point price of entry. The Shuttle is probably only worth about 16-17 points given its dial and recent additions that have increased the game's overall power curve (Inquisitor, Omega Leader, Contracted Scouts, Dengaroo etc). So, the total value of the Shuttle + Emperor for the above example, is around 16.5 points + 15.5 points = 32 points. The combo costs 29 points, so for this game the ship+crew was punching above its weight by about 3 points. That's good and can make the difference in high level games, but this particular example does not demonstrate that Palpatine is overwhelmingly broken.

However, most game logs will show that Palpatine when paired with Imperial Aces has a value well in excess of 15 points, and sometimes as high as 30 points. If Palpatine survives for many rounds, then his value becomes extraordinarily high. There is strong evidence that Palpatine is severely undercosted when paired with Imperial Aces based on analytical game theory, numerical analysis of actual game tape, and overall meta results (see below). Note that the ideal solution is not necessarily one that merely increases his cost, but that is an altogether separate discussion.

* For small-skirmish scenarios such as X-wing the cost : value curve is slightly more complicated than the (durability*damage output)^0.5 relationship above.

** This gets more complicated for support ships that derive most or all of their damage from indirect contributions, but in general, this too can be modeled.

*** The value contribution towards Fel is actually worth more than the calculation here, as his durability as a function of remaining hull is nonlinear: the first hit (which Palpatine generally protects) is worth more as it is behind 4AGI via Stealth Device.

Excellent post and thanks for the analysis.

One question: you say the Lambda is worth 16-17 points based on its stats and dial, which seems reasonable. In the Palp shuttle instance is there not a case to say that the ship itself is worth even less because it'll spend more time staying out of combat in order to protect Palpatine? If so this would need to be taken into account in the final calculations.

the shuttle is a **** space cow. It almost cant move without baffles... until i started putting that on there i was CONSTANTLY facetanking rocks or going off the board because it just cannot turn for gak. Easily THE most unwieldy ship in the game.

So why is it used so much? Palp doesnt care where the space cow is, so its free to move as wide as it needs to not hit anything. If it gets a shot off, cool, if not, oh well.

Decimator is the only other ship that can take Palp and thats usually reserved for a super-deci build rather than aces (and i have to admit the super-deci is pretty gnarly lol.... Expose EI Palp on Chiraneau with Howlie following his tail with Wingman EPT...i did a lot of high damage hits lol)

Even though i wish they'd revamp the spacecow so it can actually take advantage of its bulk and cannon/3die primary, since its the palpmobile i am afraid if they buff that ship at all the palpmobile will become just as mean as another ace making the palpaces even worse lol

the shuttle is a **** space cow. It almost cant move without baffles...

incorrect

it's

"with baffle, it can almost not move"

red stop for 9 rounds tops

the shuttle is a **** space cow. It almost cant move without baffles... until i started putting that on there i was CONSTANTLY facetanking rocks or going off the board because it just cannot turn for gak.

Just because you cannot fly it, doesn't mean it is unflyable.

maybe i should have condensed my post so you didnt cut it up like that and not read the next line.

Palpy doesnt need the shuttle to be in a specific spot, unlike anything else the shuttle can do. With that in mind its insanely easier to fly because you dont NEED it to get arc on something. When youre trying to use it offensively thats when its inability to turn becomes a problem.

maybe i should have condensed my post so you didnt cut it up like that and not read the next line.

Palpy doesnt need the shuttle to be in a specific spot, unlike anything else the shuttle can do. With that in mind its insanely easier to fly because you dont NEED it to get arc on something. When youre trying to use it offensively thats when its inability to turn becomes a problem.

My Palp shuttle does consistently more damage than my aces in games when the enemy focus on Soontir or Whisper instead of the Lambda. And yeah, it is a cow. It needs some sensible flying to not hop onto asteroids, but it is kind of forgiving when you fly over a few stones on the road as well. Not ATV Dash like, but more like a SUV which transports Palpatine in style even when the road is a little bumpy.

i will admit though the best way to bait with that thing is to be on a rock.

Ive taken out Corran because his mentality was "hes on a rock...and low hp...theres no way hes going to stay put on that rock just to bump me" - i stayed put, he bumped, soontir veered the corner and went ooo a tokenless corran!! lol

My opponent even said the only reason he thought he'd be fine was because i was on a rock. If that was the same situation without the rock he would have gone "Nope!" and left rather than risk the bump.

maybe i should have condensed my post so you didnt cut it up like that and not read the next line.

Palpy doesnt need the shuttle to be in a specific spot, unlike anything else the shuttle can do. With that in mind its insanely easier to fly because you dont NEED it to get arc on something. When youre trying to use it offensively thats when its inability to turn becomes a problem.

I'm not going to quote that massive math analysis of Palp, but I agree that it was a solid one since it's basically said what I've been saying all along: Palp is a powerful card, probably worth a little more than it's point cost, but it's not nearly as overpowered as everyone complains that it is.

But Vineheart brings up a simple fix that I've always said was the answer: make Palpatine's ability have a range of 3. Then the OCP and it's maneuver dial that looks like it belongs on a capital ship would put some bounds on Palp's usage.