Wait so does this new PGS approved method of cost effectiveness actually make literally any sense? Hmm yes I hit soontir with a Connor net, it costs 4 points and did 11 points of damage so it's clearly 7 points undercosted! C3P0 triggered 5 times on my 60 point falcon making it worth 23 points, undercosted by 19 points. Poe's ability changed 10 results total over the duration of the game, he should cost 100 points naked!

I love how people think the value of a ship lies in its hull and shields alone. The attack dice mean nothing. The defense dice mean nothing. Pilot ability and dial mean nothing. Congratulations Paragoomba, you know how to do simple arithmetic, but you are not truly calculating the value of Palpatine. You're grossly overestimating it.

Might he be undercosted? Yes, but not nearly by what you are saying.

Actually, that's kind of precisely what he is doing.

He's making an assumption that if Soontir costs 35pts and has 3 Hull/Shields then each point of damage he prevents is worth 11.7pts - those 11.7pts being the weighted cost of all the red dice/green dice/dial/actions etc of Soontir Fel.

Yeah, I get that's what he's doing, and I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to 'value' an upgrade card using this method. It is based on the cost of other pilots and specific synergies that make it look far worse.

Let's say that we change Palpatine's point cost to 20 points, which, according to PGS is still conservative. What does a Palp-aces list look like now? Imagine losing the Inquisitor, and replacing him with something under 20 points - maybe Zeta Ace. Good luck winning games.

You can't objectively assign a value to a card based on how well it synergizes with Soontir Fel, because it is then grossly over-costed when paired with everything else. Palpatine would never be played at 20 points. Never.

Yoda, 6 points :

At the beginning of the first round, chose an opponent's upgrade card. You may now treat Yoda as that card.

Just kidding... or am I?

The wonder of misconseption.

Palp is not a card. Palp is a ship. and a such has to be considered as part of the ship.

Wait so does this new PGS approved method of cost effectiveness actually make literally any sense? Hmm yes I hit soontir with a Connor net, it costs 4 points and did 11 points of damage so it's clearly 7 points undercosted! C3P0 triggered 5 times on my 60 point falcon making it worth 23 points, undercosted by 19 points. Poe's ability changed 10 results total over the duration of the game, he should cost 100 points naked!

In order to calculate the average damage that a Conner Net does, you'd have to calculate the average damage that it does, the average amount of times that you actually drop a Conner net and hit something with it. You wouldn't really have to calculate the cost of the action denial, as it costs your own action. You may also have to add the cost of cards like Bombardier and the cost of pilot abilities like Deathrain or Emon.

I suspect that once you averaged everything together, you'd end up with a value of roughly 4 points. Conner nets also have restrictions on them, they aren't some stupid broken universal effect.

Palpatine is just hyper C-3PO for your entire list. You'll get no argument from me, C-3PO is broken too.

Try calculating the value of Shield Regenerating bots next please.

Try calculating the value of Shield Regenerating bots next please.

For the record, the Palpatine value calculation was Major Juggler's method for calculating his value. PGS is just using it.

In that case, for the record, I disagree with major jugglers method of calculating Palpatine's value. Fel doesn't lose 1/3 of his dial and one third of his ability when he takes a damage card. Therefore, when Palpatine is used to avoid damage on Fel, it does not make Palpatine worth 11.7 points. There is a lot more going on with these game interactions than simple arithmetic.

In that case, for the record, I disagree with major jugglers method of calculating Palpatine's value. Fel doesn't lose 1/3 of his dial and one third of his ability when he takes a damage card. Therefore, when Palpatine is used to avoid damage on Fel, it does not make Palpatine worth 11.7 points. There is a lot more going on with these game interactions than simple arithmetic.

Absolutely this.

Correctly deciding to not use Palp and let Soontir take damage in order to Palp an extra crit and win the game is a good decision. Soontir Fel comes with 2 spare health points that are a resource for you to call on during the game.

And how do you value the times your opponent didn't even shoot at Fel because you had a Palp token available?

It's an impossible/futile venture.

I HATE NERFS.

It's almost always better to counterbalance by making something else stronger.

Yeah still not a fan of the calculation method regardless of who came up with it. It means if a tlt shoots at soontir 1 time autothrusters stands a decent chance to be worth 22 points from 1 attack.

I HATE NERFS.

It's almost always better to counterbalance by making something else stronger.

Speaking GENERALLY there is nothing suggesting this is ever the case

It's much easier to change one overpowered thing than ALL the things underpowered in comparison

The only time buffing up is really desirable is when old gameplay mechanics have gone stale and a buff is good excuse to give them a nice fresh revitalizing coat of paint

often something seems op because its just different compared to whats already available.

If you nerf whats different i.e. strong, or live in fear of adding something unique for this reason, then your game gets stale. Kind of like league of legends...so many heroes that do the same bloody thing.

I think the main reason people are salty about palp isnt that he mods dice its that he mods dice without range. Afaik hes the only upgrade that affects other ships and doesnt need to be close to them.

Rebels/Scum need such a card to balance it out.

Manaroo is also not range bound, which is why the Dengaroo list is so good.

I think the main reason people are salty about palp isnt that he mods dice its that he mods dice without range. Afaik [Palpatine's] the only upgrade that affects other ships and doesnt need to be close to them.

Manaroo. (Not strictly an upgrade, I guess, but ... ) Her ability is also proving to be very strong.

I think the main reason people are salty about palp isnt that he mods dice its that he mods dice without range. Afaik [Palpatine's] the only upgrade that affects other ships and doesnt need to be close to them.

Manaroo. (Not strictly an upgrade, I guess, but ... ) Her ability is also proving to be very strong.

One focus from her becomes infinite with OCr4 and then you stack persistant rerolls on multiple attacks with zuckus crew because Manny removes the drawback of stress stacking etc

Don't get me wrong I love Manny and that her ability is unlimited range, but she's no palp

More support should be free of range restrictions, so long as they have other restrictions (ala give up mods; only one ship benefits no unlimited range howlrunner plz . Shara esege and Kyle could've done without range restrictions)

I also love her becauss, unlike every other **** support that flings its own mods away, she can still contribute to combat just fine (all hail feedback!)

In that case, for the record, I disagree with major jugglers method of calculating Palpatine's value. Fel doesn't lose 1/3 of his dial and one third of his ability when he takes a damage card. Therefore, when Palpatine is used to avoid damage on Fel, it does not make Palpatine worth 11.7 points. There is a lot more going on with these game interactions than simple arithmetic.

Absolutely this.

Correctly deciding to not use Palp and let Soontir take damage in order to Palp an extra crit and win the game is a good decision. Soontir Fel comes with 2 spare health points that are a resource for you to call on during the game.

And how do you value the times your opponent didn't even shoot at Fel because you had a Palp token available?

It's an impossible/futile venture.

Well, then you'd get offensive value from Palpatine instead of defensive value.

I don't value the amount of times that people don't shoot at a potentially palp boosted ship, but if I did it would only increase Palpatine's value.

An impossible/futile venture? Imperial player greed truly knows no bounds.

I think the main reason people are salty about palp isnt that he mods dice its that he mods dice without range. Afaik [Palpatine's] the only upgrade that affects other ships and doesnt need to be close to them.

Manaroo. (Not strictly an upgrade, I guess, but ... ) Her ability is also proving to be very strong.

I love Manny, but we can't forget that her ability is really strong because she gets paired with a bloke that can abuse the **** out of it

One focus from her becomes infinite with OCr4 and then you stack persistant rerolls on multiple attacks with zuckus crew because Manny removes the drawback of stress stacking etc

Help me out with this please? Is this what you mean?

Manaroo (27)

At the start of the Combat phase, you may assign all focus, evade, and target lock tokens assigned to you to another friendly ship.

Zuckuss (1)

When attacking, you may receive any number of stress tokens to choose an equal number of defense dice. The defender must reroll those dice.

Overclocked R4 (1)

During the Combat phase, when you spend a focus token, you may receive 1 stress token to assign 1 focus token to your ship.

I don't follow the "unlimited" focus tokens you're reffing to?

• At the start of the Combat phase Manaroo assigns, not spends , a focus token - Right?
• So the focus tokens are not there during the rest of the combat phase.
• During the Combat phase , when you spend a focus token .

Two questions on the last one? During the combat phase, I guess, is any time right?

Secondly Manaroo never spent the token at the Start so no stress and no free focus token.

Finally I understand how Manaroo's abilities are not stress dependent (or lack of), but Manaroo's actions are.

So you need an action to get a focus token which you can't do since you're stressed. Even if you had a focus token you assign it to someone else not spend it. And without spending it you don't get a stress or another focus token.

What did I miss?

You're missing dengar with that stuff being fed focus by Manny

manny doesn't take any of it. She's a giver

It's simple, since game result for tournies are published, we have this magical thing called "empirical data" at our fingertips. If Palp Aces was truly as overpowered as PGS and others hypothesize it is, then Palp Aces should be consistently winning tournaments and much higher rates than other lists.

Oh wait, but it's not.....

So you can put up whatever math mumbo jumbo you want that don't accurately take into account all variables, but if it's not disproportionately winning, then it's not overpower.

It's simple, since game result for tournies are published, we have this magical thing called "empirical data" at our fingertips. If Palp Aces was truly as overpowered as PGS and others hypothesize it is, then Palp Aces should be consistently winning tournaments and much higher rates than other lists.

Oh wait, but it's not.....

So you can put up whatever math mumbo jumbo you want that don't accurately take into account all variables, but if it's not disproportionately winning, then it's not overpower.

1.) I was told similar when I complained about the pre-nerf phantom. Phantom isn't OP, it didn't even win worlds! Things can have a negative impact on the game without winning every single tournament.

2.) Can you link me to the list of what squads won regionals?

Your claim is that it's overtly overpowered. To prove that hypothesis, one would look for the number of times it wins versus the number of times it loses while controlling for things like minimum player skill and lists that are competitive. And comparing it to the Phantom isn't valid because there was a simple mechanical fix for that. You fix for Palpatine is to remove it from non-epic games, which isn't a fix.

I think you are confusing the concept of "anecdote" with "data". Asking who won a single tournament in order to demonstrate the probability of winning is like rolling box cars on a pair of dice and declaring that the most common roll. But your hypothesis that Palp Aces is "an easy win" because it's OP is refuted by the simple fact that it doesn't disproportionately win.

People talk about easy wins with certain list are full of it. Please give examples of the tournaments that you won with these easy list as you so call them. I like my imperial veterans list and do well with them. Whenever anyone says that it's an easy list, we switch sides... Playing the other persons build and then they realize that it isn't as easy as they thought.

had one guy claim palpaces were so broken you literally didnt even have to fly them right to win.

So i gave him the ships and cards to run palpmobile soontir inquis. I ran trip xwings.

He lost, and dice luck had nothing to do with it. When soontir is staring down 3 Xwing gun barrels he will NOT dodge all of them. He never tried to arc-dodge and just token stacked every time...dodging 1-2 arcs > taking a double focus from ptl + soontir ability.

No matter how "easy win" it is you still need some degree of flying skills to actually play it.

had one guy claim palpaces were so broken you literally didnt even have to fly them right to win.

So i gave him the ships and cards to run palpmobile soontir inquis. I ran trip xwings.

He lost, and dice luck had nothing to do with it. When soontir is staring down 3 Xwing gun barrels he will NOT dodge all of them. He never tried to arc-dodge and just token stacked every time...dodging 1-2 arcs > taking a double focus from ptl + soontir ability.

No matter how "easy win" it is you still need some degree of flying skills to actually play it.

Pre-Nerf Phantom players who were new to flying the phantom would always somehow manage to place their ship onto an asteroid in the first engagement. It was still broken as **** and it still didn't require much skill to just see where your opponent moved to and then decloak reactively.

The ability to not make huge blunders does not take much skill.