Hello boyz !

So, I'm sure I'm not the only one disappointed with the ISD's performance. This is by no way my devious opportunity to say it sucks (rather that I haven't played them to their fullest advantage yet), but here are my observations :

1) ISD put tremendous pressure on the number of ships you can field, so lower activations.

2) ISD have trouble double arcing, so it puts a problem in mitigating the enemy's defense tokens because that's one less useful attack.

3) ISD don't tank that much. Even with the ISD2 and the amazing ECM, they get eaten by a large number of attacks.

4) Gunnery Team doesn't help too much considering it's quite easy for the enemy to spread out and/or stick at long range where their evades will negate the firepower of the ISD

Pros :

- Can one shot smaller ships without much trouble

- Largest amount of squadrons per activation

- Speed 3

- Generous hull

On top of all these observations, I have the feeling that the ISD's performance is pretty much all in and hope that the action is decisive, due to the fact that it's so easy to throw multiple shots on the bad boy, while he will probably only get one turn of shooting at peak efficiency against smaller ships, and two on medium+ ships.

What are you guys' tactics to improve the ISD's tabletop performance ?

Hello boyz !

So, I'm sure I'm not the only one disappointed with the ISD's performance. This is by no way my devious opportunity to say it sucks (rather that I haven't played them to their fullest advantage yet), but here are my observations :

1) ISD put tremendous pressure on the number of ships you can field, so lower activations.

2) ISD have trouble double arcing, so it puts a problem in mitigating the enemy's defense tokens because that's one less useful attack.

3) ISD don't tank that much. Even with the ISD2 and the amazing ECM, they get eaten by a large number of attacks.

4) Gunnery Team doesn't help too much considering it's quite easy for the enemy to spread out and/or stick at long range where their evades will negate the firepower of the ISD

Pros :

- Can one shot smaller ships without much trouble

- Largest amount of squadrons per activation

- Speed 3

- Generous hull

On top of all these observations, I have the feeling that the ISD's performance is pretty much all in and hope that the action is decisive, due to the fact that it's so easy to throw multiple shots on the bad boy, while he will probably only get one turn of shooting at peak efficiency against smaller ships, and two on medium+ ships.

What are you guys' tactics to improve the ISD's tabletop performance ?

Hmm... my tactic? Use 3 of them. Note: it doesn't always work out for me

ISDs can do what no other ship can do. Drive right through enemy squads to kill the carrier outright.

X17s and sensor teams

Or OE and intel officer

Nothing more required. If you want to shuffle squads, then the other ships are so much better. The exception is avenger which does benefit from a gang of bombers softening the target before strike.

Has anyone ever used 3 in a tournament setting? I'd be curious to see if/ how they made it work. Motti + 3 ISD1s maybe?

Has anyone ever used 3 in a tournament setting? I'd be curious to see if/ how they made it work. Motti + 3 ISD1s maybe?

I've played against 3 ISDs in a tournament. Motti is typical. The problem is placement and activation.

Nav keeps your nose pointed in the right direction and helps with double-arcing.

Pt106 is the expert on this I thin but for me, it is all about speed control. Sure it can go speed 3 but that is not always important. Learning when to pounce with the ISD and limit the number of shots you take after you pounce.

Oh man.... Disappointed with ISDs now?

As compared to what? MC80s?

Because that's kind of the point.

They're incomparable to just about everything...

I mean, Compare them to a Victory.... Since when was the Victory regarded widely as Top Notch now?

Compare them to a Gladiator... That doesn't seem to... work.....

Definitely look to get some simple things out of your ISD, one at a time.

As a Rebel Player, you always, always have to have respect for a well-flown ISD... Because you cannot match it in any meaningful way... Its going to have a massive impact in your game, any game...

Thanks for all the ideas guys ! A few quick questions based on your posts :

ISDs can do what no other ship can do. Drive right through enemy squads to kill the carrier outright.

Definitely agree with your IO upgrade advice (using this on all of my gun boats), but for the quoted point it never worked in my experience. Driving through to rush the carrier only exposes the ship more easily to a lot of attacks. Against non bombers with blue dice I'd chance it, but it's really suicidal otherwise (especially if there is some Yavaris going on )

Nav keeps your nose pointed in the right direction and helps with double-arcing.

Makes sense indeed. How do you balance Nav with Engineering/Squadron commands in your games though ? Is it something like Navigate/Navigate/Other Command ? Or are you Navigating for the three first turns then banking everything on the last 3 turns ?

Obviously, it's on a case by case basis per game, but I was just curious.

____

Also, in terms of deployment, do you deploy them first or towards the last parts of the deployment phase ? I usually tend to deploy them last so as to help out point their front arc but maybe I should deploy them first and deploy the support around them.

____

EDIT :

I mean, Compare them to a Victory.... Since when was the Victory regarded widely as Top Notch now?

Yep, my VSDs consistently outperform my ISD in every department save for the burst damage. Most notably, I don't find that the burst damage they deal is particularily useful, and even more notably I feel that they go down way, way too easily.

Thanks for all the ideas guys ! A few quick questions based on your posts :

ISDs can do what no other ship can do. Drive right through enemy squads to kill the carrier outright.

Definitely agree with your IO upgrade advice (using this on all of my gun boats), but for the quoted point it never worked in my experience. Driving through to rush the carrier only exposes the ship more easily to a lot of attacks. Against non bombers with blue dice I'd chance it, but it's really suicidal otherwise (especially if there is some Yavaris going on )

Nav keeps your nose pointed in the right direction and helps with double-arcing.

Makes sense indeed. How do you balance Nav with Engineering/Squadron commands in your games though ? Is it something like Navigate/Navigate/Other Command ? Or are you Navigating for the three first turns then banking everything on the last 3 turns ?

Obviously, it's on a case by case basis per game, but I was just curious.

____

Also, in terms of deployment, do you deploy them first or towards the last parts of the deployment phase ? I usually tend to deploy them last so as to help out point their front arc but maybe I should deploy them first and deploy the support around them.

____

EDIT :

I mean, Compare them to a Victory.... Since when was the Victory regarded widely as Top Notch now?

Yep, my VSDs consistently outperform my ISD in every department save for the burst damage. Most notably, I don't find that the burst damage they deal is particularily useful, and even more notably I feel that they go down way, way too easily.

Timing the nav token + dial on the ISD really can make a HUGE difference- I think I end up flying mine more like gladiators than a vic, if you get my meaning. You want to stay away, then rush in and finish the job in 1 or 2 turns (props if you put multiple ISD's on target!)

Deployment: If you've got something cheap and flexible like a Raider, deploy it first, then deploy the squadrons that you have around it. This partly depends upon what the enemy does, but it will generally give you maximum flexibility.

Commands: First, if you run squadrons and you need squadron commands, that's going to require adjustments to your build and flying plan. This get a little too complicated, but suffice it to say that with both Rebels and Imperials, I'm looking over the course of the game for those moments when I really can go Squadron-nav-eng-squadron or something like that.

If you're ignoring squads and outfitting as more of a battleship, you can just go Nav-nav-nav.

And I'm sure PT106 can contribute a lot to this discussion. He's the expert on ISD-1s. I think he's ISD-1 list works very well at exploiting the strengths of the ISD-1.

I think a couple of keys are accepting that you're probably going to lose one, and then keeping your upgrades light so that you don't lose a lot of additional points because of that. PT's build puts the commander elsewhere, and the combined power of two ISD-1s is absolutely brutal. I'm experimenting with doing something similar with a Vader ISD-II list. It cannot be as activation happy, but it can compensate slightly with placement, and its trading hull for better range and attack manipulation. If you have two, then there's a lot of front arc space that the opponent cannot go, and they can partly cover each other's weaknesses.

Wow.

I mean, its not as if I disbelieve you.

I mean, really, I agree with a lot of your sentiments...

... But I'm fighting against being told the opposite for so, so, so long... That Victories are Crap and ISDs, especially the IIs, are the bomb...

@Vergilius : Thanks for the insightful comments Mr. Bearded President !

You made some pretty good points and you actually remind me of a theory I had (and maybe posted in here) about the I-II variants of Imperial ships when you mentionned the ISD-I of PT106. Now that I think about it, my early Wave 2 games with the ISD went relatively smoothly compared to later ones and I was using an ISD-I at the time.

Not saying that the ISD-I is better than the ISD-II, but due to the fact that they were black dice heavy, I tended to use a lot more Nav and a lot more Engineering compared to these days. The logic behind this moveset and this theory was : ISD-I has black dice. Black dice are more efficient against ships but have close range, so Nav is mandatory. Blue dice have less positioning burden and less damage than black dice, so their lower damage output are best supported by squadrons.

Come to think of it now as I write this post... Maybe the ISD-II is better served as a carrier while the ISD-I is better as a ship to ship damage dealing ! (Which goes a bit against the logic of : you save points on a lower costed variant so you can put one extra squadron in).

The few arguments for I = ship damage and 2 = carrier can be :

- Defensive retrofits are mostly passive defense (except the Cluster Bombs), and they don't synergize with Engineering commands which a ship is mostly going to need in the fray, especially to recover shields.

- Offensive retrofits have a mix of squadron utility (EHB, BC), active defense (PDR, QLT) and some utility against ships (Q7).

- Because the ISD 1 is mostly going to be closer than the ISD2 in many cases at least to ensure black dice, they're going to need more engineering than squadrons. Conversely, squadron commands ensure a much needed range for Imperial ships, which is the ISD 2's main forte.

So, perhaps I should start thinking differently about the I = carrier and II = gunboat with the Imperials and go for another reasoning.

Man, this is opening new perspectives for me, I need to meditate on that ! Cheers !

____

@Dras : Haha, no man don't worry. I'm not saying that the ISD suck or the VSD is better ! After all, a ship is just a tool, it all depends on how it is used by the guy who flies it, right ?

The ISD disappoint me most likely because I'm not using it to its fullest (as written in the OP ^^ ), hence the creation of this thread to improve so that I don't suck as much with it

As lyr alluded to, PT106 designed an excellent list using 2 ISD-1's and three Raiders. Lightly upgraded, i believe the 1's had Intel officer and maybe leading shots? Can't remember. He won two regionals with it though, so definetely an effective use of the ISD.

I believe the ISD is a fine centerpiece, but the problem is fleshing out the rest of your fleet in such a way as to have other credible threats. PT's squadronless beast notwithstanding, I find the ISD loves to pair with an effective bomber squad. She can activate a large number of them, and between the ISD's massive front arc and the generally large threat radius of imperial bomber groups, you can control a serious bit of board.

The issue of course, as you alluded to, is that you've now invested a great deal of points in doing so. While the fighter presence should keep you in the deployment game, you are almost certain to be out-activated. Against certain fleets, this isn't a huge deal. I took this concept with a two ship fleet to the finals in the vassal cup before Clons raiders chewed me up, and it beat a number of fleets which were piloted by very skilled opponents, most of which outactivated me. But its perfectly viable, they major key I found was to make sure you arent allowing your opponent to get behind your ISD. Prevention for me took the form of speed 0 manuevers, high speed hard cuts at the edge of the board, as well as using the remaining fleet element (in my case a vsd-1) as area denial for the easiest/most likely trajectory for an effective flank.

In short, practice with it a bit more. Its a fine ship. It was dominant when it came out, but I know you are coming off a break so you are likely running into opponents with a better feel for how to beat your ship then you currently possess. Some things are self correcting, and if your issue is simply lack of experience compared the field, as I suspect it might be, then this is one of those things. Also wave three brings us some nice cheap activations which should also help.

Anyway thats my two cents.

Has anyone ever used 3 in a tournament setting? I'd be curious to see if/ how they made it work. Motti + 3 ISD1s maybe?

Tried it, fun last. But the commander is wrong: don't run them with Motti, run them with Ozzell. Makes maneuvering them to avoid damage easier than trying to track an entire fleet. If even one ISD goes down you are at a potential 8-3 loss.

Try flying your ISDs the same way you would VSDs. Seriously, just use it the same way you would run a Vic, and then let its better qualities shine through. You will get mor out of it.

I have a seriously hard time getting double arcs out of the ISD. Sometimes, it feels like you're letting him slip out of the front arc if you're too much at a weird angle. and weird angle also makes it hard to ram.

A bit late to a discussion, so I'll try to be short.

As far as ISD builds are concerned, you need to decide what is the role of ISD in your fleet (and how many will you bring):

1. Command and Control/Area Denial. That's your ECM/Gunnery Team ISD2 (with Christmas tree as an option).

2. Carrier. Either boosted comms/EHB ISD1 (to maximize squadrons) or ISD2 (I didn't run ISD carriers so can't give much insight there)

3. Gunship (with the goal of maximizing a chance of one-shooting opponent ship). ISD1 with OE and one more upgrade that helps push damage through (Intel/XI7/H9 etc).

ISD loves to be in a high-activation list so you can delay activating it and wait for the opponent to come to range (or move to the close range to threaten instant kill next round)

As others already noted Navigate is ISD's best friend - the ability to do extra yaw is priceless.

Essentially my golden rules for using ISDs in a fleet are: keep them lean, keep them hungry, don't be afraid to lose them.

ISD love to be in high-activation lists so you can delay activating it and wait for the opponent to come to range (or move to the close range to threaten instant kill next round)

As others already noted Navigate is ISD's best friend - the ability to do extra yaw is priceless.

Praise the ISD master, and thanks for your advice

Just to focus on the quoted points (the others you mentionned are super valid too) : I really agree about your high activation point, and I think 4 activations is a bare minimum (your list with 5 activations must have given you enough leeway).

My big issue is that I'm quite scared of going no squadrons at 400 points and with my current collection, I don't really have enough smaller ships to make a good first, but I'll find solutions !

For your second point, yeah, I should Navigate more often

Can you show us a list you use to great effect?

I saw someone do really well with a 2 ISD list, but he had utter control over his speed. (And a dearth of plan for unexpected plays and list counters). Is speed control the key?

I think flotillas will be a good compliment to ISDs in lists

• Giving a fleet extra activations for little cost.
• They can shoulder some of the squadron activation duties allowing the ISD to use Nav more often.
• The Suppressor Gozanti has a really nice synergy with the Avenger ISD title in a similar way to Overload Pulse.
• Extra tokens passed on to an ISD by Coms Net are always welcome.

As for the triple ISD fleet I like the Idea of 396/400

• ISD-II, Konstantine, ECM, gunnery team, HTT
• ISD-I, Pylon Q7 Tractor Beam
• ISD-I, Gunnery Team

This is a good thread. My contribution:

- ISD needs activation support or it will often just get played around or isolated and picked apart. I don't leave Coruscant without 4 ships minimum.

- ISD1 I have completely gone off at present. The need to get to close range makes getting shots much much harder, and means you are likely to overshoot most of the time. Once they are behind you your black dice side arcs cant reach anything and you are out of the game at best and getting burned down at worst.

- Dual arcing is a bit of a boutique tactic. Most of the time you want them dead ahead and use your gunnery teams to butcher the fighters while you burn down their cap ships. I know there are very skilled practitioners of the dual arc avenger though.

- Xi7s are just about mandatory. With them you can expect to kill almost anything short of an MC80 in two shots. My last couple of games my GT/Xi7 ISD2 happily engaged two VSD 1s at once and burned them in two turns without working up a sweat. Game prior it did the same to two space whales. Of course, I only got to do this because I had activation advantage and lots of NAV commands!

- Keep at least a token TIE complement in reserve behind you, Don't get them killed. Don't throw them in unless they are going to directly keep bombers off your ISD that turn. Then use them and your antisquad.

I have run a 3 ISD list (in a tournament as well as friendlies) and was underwhelmed, the list is a one trick pony relying solely on damage, it has a very hard time against small and medium ships that can avoid its arc and because you can only field a very small squadron force to run interference, it takes excessive damage from enemy squadrons.

It also needs to have Xi-7's on each ship as a minimum and that will make your squadron force tiny.

I also find I prefer the ISD-I over the ISD-II, I like the huge amount of damage it can inflict in a single strike, which with a ship that has limited side and rear arc firepower, is essential.

The ISD is a powerful ship and the ship itself is not the inherent problem, the games high bias in play style rewarding high activation lists is.

I have had success running an ISD-I, VSD-I and Raider-I with support from six (yes six) Aggressor squadrons.

My new list (totally experimental right now) is

Is there a doctor in the house?

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 395/400

Commander: Admiral Konstantine

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Minefields

[ flagship ] Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)
- Admiral Konstantine ( 23 points)
- Relentless ( 3 points)
- Commandant Aresko ( 7 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 162 total ship cost

Interdictor-class Suppression Refit (90 points)
- Interdictor ( 3 points)
- Wulff Yularen ( 7 points)
- Projection Experts ( 6 points)
- G-8 Experiemental Projector ( 8 points)
= 114 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Repair Crews ( 4 points)
= 27 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Repair Crews ( 4 points)
= 27 total ship cost

3 TIE Interceptor Squadrons ( 33 points)
2 Aggressor Assault Fighters ( 32 points)

I've always gotten myself in the most trouble with the ISD when I've assumed that, with 11 hull, the ship can just "take it".

There is a certain amount of "it" that the ISD can take... but "it" is never as much I think "it" is.

... and then the ISD explodes.

Can you show us a list you use to great effect?

I saw someone do really well with a 2 ISD list, but he had utter control over his speed. (And a dearth of plan for unexpected plays and list counters). Is speed control the key?

My regional list https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/222179-aar-raleigh-regional-pictures/

For ISDs its less about speed control but more about yaw control, so spamming Navigation is a good strategy there (and this is a reason I'm less then thrilled about using Ozzel with ISDs)

Extra tokens passed on to an ISD by Coms Net are always welcome.

Exactly! Comms Net adds a lot of flexibility to ISDs, so I think that Comms Net Gozanti is the build for ISD fleet (Having that CF token sometimes worth a lot on ISD1)

- ISD1 I have completely gone off at present. The need to get to close range makes getting shots much much harder, and means you are likely to overshoot most of the time. Once they are behind you your black dice side arcs cant reach anything and you are out of the game at best and getting burned down at worst.

It all depends on how you fly them. Its much harder to get behind 2 well-positioned ISD1s without ramming any of them (and a side arc at close range can be very deadly). Also speed 2 with NAV can turn ISD on a dime and keep it in battle.

Essentially ISD1 is harder to position well for a hit, but this is mitigated by it's brutal damage output once you're successful (I prefer to think about ISD1 as a Demo on steroids)

Dual arcing is a bit of a boutique tactic.

I agree that one shouldn't rely on a dual arc, however it is a valid technique vs medium and large ships (the size of the ship really helps there)

Xi7s are just about mandatory.

These are powerful, however there are alternative good upgrades (I'm personally a fan of H9 on ISD1). A good opponent facing XI7 fleet will stack repair tokens round 1 and use them to move shields after XI7 hit.

Keep at least a token TIE complement in reserve behind you, Don't get them killed. Don't throw them in unless they are going to directly keep bombers off your ISD that turn. Then use them and your antisquad.

This is a very good advice. I would add that sometimes it makes sense to do an antisquad shot even if you have a shot on a ship (it all depends on the situation on board). It'll take around 4-5 AS shots for the bombers to start dropping, so this can be as low as 2 rounds of shooting with 2-3 ships.

And I ran a 3ISD fleet in a store championship once, it was fun but I found that 3rd ISD didn't do much and usually stayed behind, hence the raiders in my regional list.