YT1300's ARE Escort........!

D'oh. I knew that.

I think this is part of the bigger issue with them, not that they are over powered, but that they are kind of stupid. Not saying that they are unplayable or anything, but the concept why would a standard light freighter have counter and be an escort?

It has Counter because its armed with Quad cannons on the top and bottom - its difficult to get shots at it from fighters without taking some damage in return....

And it has Escort because its big and bulky and gets in the way of other things that you are trying to shoot at...... Its basically a slow, Ugly Shield with Guns

Besides, there's nothing "Standard" about the YT Frames... That was the whole reason they were sold

And yet the Millennium Falcon that has the Quad cannons on top and bottom and is big and bulky and get int eh way of other things does not have either one. If they are going off the basic YT frame it is standard, now the fact that it is one of the most modified frames does not change the fact that they all start from a basic starting point. It is a light freighter not a fighter, but that is not how the game treats it.

I really dislike the rogue rule. It feels anti thematic that boba fett can move and shoot while Darth Vader and Wedge can't. Is Boba that much of a better pilot? There is a blog post that goes into a lot better detail about this somewhere out on the inter webs. So I'll leave it at that.

I don't think it's game breaking or even OP. But, rules wise it just doesn't make sense to me. Why craft the game in a very specific manner where squadrons either move or shoot but not both and then break it? Named characters/ships it doesn't bother me so much becuase you can only take one. But I find it irritating when a list is maxed out with 5-8 (in my mind) Outriders or Slave I's.

I would have been more agreeable to the rule if it carried a negative side effect like escort. A double edged sword so to speak. Something along the lines that bounty hunters don't fall under imperial control so any ship with rogue can not be activated with squadron tokens/commands. Ergo, they can move and shoot but will never be activated with squadron commands.

Just my $0.02.

Kind of this except that I do not see escort as a negative. I can not remember the last time as an Empire player that I took a squadron with it and it was not because it has escort that I took it. Now as a rebel player I can see it not being the reason you took the ship (the X-wing I think is the best fighter in the game overall), but I can also not see a time that I would be saying man I which I did not have to escort this unit. But what I was saying is that it just makes the squadrons feel wrong, as I understand (and this very easily could be wrong my knowledge of fluff is week before all the recent changes) it the TiE Advanced was so rare that even Vader had to have his recovered and repaired. With out trying to start the numbers per squadron fight, when I watch the movies it sounds to me like Han is worried a bit when fighting four TiE Fighters, but a basic unmodified YT-1300 should never lose to a single stand of TiE fighters. Also my understanding most of the Rouge ships were very uncommon, the villains may be more common but the Rebels used more common stuff, and then modified it to fit what they needed. So like I said not over-powering, but just feels wrong.

You mean the Heavy Quad Lasers that Han installed that were locked into the Forward Firing position when not manned? Makes sense that Han would not have counter.

Rogue doesn't mean or suggest that anyone is a better pilot. Wedge and Vader both belong to organized military units. They fly in formation, and as such their utilization is maximized when they receive coordination from the capital ships.

Rogues operate more independently, and individually they are more powerful, but they are also less efficient.

Shenanigans... firesprays are always flying in formation bunched up around a Mr. Rhymer. If rogues were supposed to be "independent" and "individual" you wouldn't see lists with 8 rogues in them... but you do... and they are rather effective despite their cost. Rogue provides too much flexibility. Also, from a game perspective being able to shoot and move without the mother ship telling you what to do makes you a better pilot from a thematic point. Currently, Luke is too stupid to know how to fly and shoot at the same time without outside help, this doesn't make sense to me.

In short sentence summary, I don't like the rogue rule, it doesn't fit thematically or mechanically even if it is priced appropriately... in my opinion.

*edit: dem typos

Firesprays don't fly in formation with Rhymer, they fly near Rhymer so he can link his superior targeting computer to theirs. Rhymer flies in formation with his squadron (the other minis on his base.)

Rogues are more independent. What does several different rogues working in tandem have to do with anything, exactly?

I also don't at all see how you think Rogue means a Squadron is a better pilot - but there are so many abstractions that it's really about interpretation. Wedge isn't the only pilot in his squadron - he himself is definitely better than Boss, but Boss isn't even piloting a snubfighter, so the comparison is strained.

And even if Rogue was a measure exclusively of pilot skill, Wedge wouldn't have it by virtue of being released before Rogue was a game mechanic.

You certainly don't have to like it, either for fluff reasons, or gameplay reasons, but I really don't understand your objections to it. It adds flexibility because it frees one from the rigid military hierarchy - exactly what the R&V are, thematically. They are less cost efficient because you are paying a mercenary, which is more expensive than regular soldiers, but with different strengths and weaknesses than regular soldiers - which is exactly how R&V is intended to work.

I understand the complaint that the ships just don't look like Star Wars movie squadrons. That complaint definitely makes the most sense, but even still, it's a game. The movies were pretty limited in what they showed us, so it's too be expected that they had to dig some more ships/squadrons from sources outside of the movies.

Rogue doesn't mean or suggest that anyone is a better pilot. Wedge and Vader both belong to organized military units. They fly in formation, and as such their utilization is maximized when they receive coordination from the capital ships.

Rogues operate more independently, and individually they are more powerful, but they are also less efficient.

Shenanigans... firesprays are always flying in formation bunched up around a Mr. Rhymer. If rogues were supposed to be "independent" and "individual" you wouldn't see lists with 8 rogues in them... but you do... and they are rather effective despite their cost. Rogue provides too much flexibility. Also, from a game perspective being able to shoot and move without the mother ship telling you what to do makes you a better pilot from a thematic point. Currently, Luke is too stupid to know how to fly and shoot at the same time without outside help, this doesn't make sense to me.

In short sentence summary, I don't like the rogue rule, it doesn't fit thematically or mechanically even if it is priced appropriately... in my opinion.

*edit: dem typos

Well, if it is appropriately priced, then it does fit mechanically, right? Isn't that exactly what the trade off mechanic is? It is better, but it costs more.

Firesprays don't fly in formation with Rhymer, they fly near Rhymer so he can link his superior targeting computer to theirs. Rhymer flies in formation with his squadron (the other minis on his base.)

Rogues are more independent. What does several different rogues working in tandem have to do with anything, exactly?

I also don't at all see how you think Rogue means a Squadron is a better pilot - but there are so many abstractions that it's really about interpretation. Wedge isn't the only pilot in his squadron - he himself is definitely better than Boss, but Boss isn't even piloting a snubfighter, so the comparison is strained.

And even if Rogue was a measure exclusively of pilot skill, Wedge wouldn't have it by virtue of being released before Rogue was a game mechanic.

You certainly don't have to like it, either for fluff reasons, or gameplay reasons, but I really don't understand your objections to it. It adds flexibility because it frees one from the rigid military hierarchy - exactly what the R&V are, thematically. They are less cost efficient because you are paying a mercenary, which is more expensive than regular soldiers, but with different strengths and weaknesses than regular soldiers - which is exactly how R&V is intended to work.

I understand the complaint that the ships just don't look like Star Wars movie squadrons. That complaint definitely makes the most sense, but even still, it's a game. The movies were pretty limited in what they showed us, so it's too be expected that they had to dig some more ships/squadrons from sources outside of the movies.

I agree it is a game, the fact that it does not feel right to me does not break the game. As it is not the only thing that does not feel right to me. Overall I think it is a very good game, I would just like to see some things changed, but also realized that it will likely never happen as something that I like someone else probably does not, same as the parts that I do not like probably someone else does. They can not make all of us happy so why change something that they do not think is broke.

And yet the Millennium Falcon that has the Quad cannons on top and bottom and is big and bulky and get int eh way of other things does not have either one. If they are going off the basic YT frame it is standard, now the fact that it is one of the most modified frames does not change the fact that they all start from a basic starting point. It is a light freighter not a fighter, but that is not how the game treats it.

I'd think it does not have it because Han is to much of a hot-shot pilot to be tied down escorting. He goes on the offense. And it's only Han and Chewie, so no one to man the guns for counter.

Just my headcanon

The YT-2400 are good at kill points denial because they are mobile and are relatively tough, but their damage output isn't super excellent. Considering that statistically you need 2 to kill off a TIE squadron, it becomes a pretty expensive investment.

I've faced lists with a large amount of R&V and was never impressed by their role, mostly because they were used to replace standard fighters in carrier lists. And aside from the Firespray and the Scurrg, they don't really increase the damage output that much compared to a better staying power.

Where they really shine imho is when escorting smaller ships that don't really want to burn a dial for 1 squadron, so they can act as a close quarter protection and be efficient in that role.

For a larger volume of activations, the regular squadrons play well, but they need a purpose built carrier to be efficient !

I really dislike the rogue rule. It feels anti thematic that boba fett can move and shoot while Darth Vader and Wedge can't. Is Boba that much of a better pilot?

Are you sure you don't mean that it's not that you hate the Rogue rule, but that you hate the fact that the heroes of Star Wars like Vader, Wedge and Luke etc don't have it?

"Luke, you switched off your targeting computer! What's wrong?"

"Nothing. I'm all right."

"Are you sure? Without our say-so you can't even move and shoot!"

"Oh right, derp."

Hates a strong word. But no... I don't wish Luke, wedge, and Vader had the rogue rule (I'm not rocking rogue envy), I wish Boba, fire sprays, YTs and all the other rogues and villains didn't have the rule.

CDAT hit the nail on the head for me. It's a game and it's a great game but there are things that I dislike, as I'm sure there are different things that everyone else dislike too. For me the rogue rule is at the top of the list. But, I fully understand that others think it's a fantastic rule that adds immense breadth and new dimensions to the game... I just disagree.

But I'll admit that my gripe is a minor one and kudos to FFG for creating a game that I really enjoy.

And aside from the Firespray and the Scurrg, they don't really increase the damage output that much compared to a better staying power.

Not to get off on a tangent here, but... what comparisons are you making here? Because Rogues don't increase damage output over their vanilla counterparts, and in most cases lose damage in a point-cost comparison.

The Firespray begs a direct comparison to two TIE Bombers (18pts vs 18pts), and has equal expected anti-squadron and less expected anti-ship--in both cases consolidated into one attack instead of split across two, making it easier to defend against than the TIE Bombers. Add to that the very significant difference in total hull (6 vs 10), and the TIE Bomber becomes dramatically the more points-efficient option, all else being equal.

The H6 is a little harder to compare directly, but the Y-wing is about the closest comparison for it (both have Heavy and speed 3, though the Y-wing is a bit less of a "pure" bomber). If you scale the relevant statistics to point cost, you get:

                     H6    Y-wing
anti-ship dmg/pt   .109      .100
anti-sqd dmg/pt    .125      .150
hull/pt            .375      .500

bigger is better in all categories

The H6 is slightly more efficient at anti-ship, but significantly less efficient in terms of anti-squadron expected damage and hull.

Neither is a perfect comparison of course, but they both demonstrate the superior efficiency of vanilla squadrons vs Rogues.

My bad, Ardaedhel, I should have been clearer !

I don't really make points for points comparisons, but rather on an individual squad basis. Points for points comparisons are interesting when you can ensure full utilization of the points spent, which is hard to predict early game, let alone during the game.

I meant that squadron vs squadron while forgetting the points, the R&V don't have a much better firepower both in AS/AA fields save for the Bomber variants (H6 vs Ywing : 1.5 vs 1 expected damage). They do usually bring better resilience (YT vs X-Wing in an escort role, YT2400 vs A-Wing in a fast moving role, etc) for the points. The Scurrg vs the Y-Wing is the only one not bringing more hull.

To me, the denominator for the analysis is more damage-resilience-speed-special rules/activation rather than points. That's why Firesprays have replaced the TIE Bombers in many Rhymerballs for instance. Points for points, they deal less anti-ship damage than TIE Bombers, but they have a higher damage output per activation in this specific case.

Can't argue that the vanilla fighters are more points efficient, but the Firesprays and the Scurrg are more activation efficient than their vanilla equivalent.

I think it comes down to how you are building your squadron complement. There is no "Take this becuase it is just better". People could argue that for the YT2400's but 3x YT2400's is 4x A-Wings in points (with 4 points floating) so there are options.

If you want a direct thought on squadrons, 8x YT2400's is 11x A-Wings and enough points for an Intel Officer not to mention 1 more full deployment.

This is a very interesting/entertaining thread to read!

1) What I like about the Final Four in the Fleet Commander Contest... they chose fleets that are thematic that are pretty comparable in terms of power... the bottom line is... play what you like, why you like, I'm pretty confident that whatever you come up with can win a Store Championship (there are all kinds of variables to this, of course). Truly, the People's Game.

2) As a techie, I make the joke... "When time is running out (on an exam), every fluid is an Ideal Gas [Law]." While it doesn't make sense sometimes fluffwise (we all probably will agree), it's fun to argue applying "real world" stuff to a fantasy universe. I think we all agree that we want the fantasy universe to abide by its own fantasy rules. I mean... the Death Star gets taken out from its exhaust port? What I'm saying, since it is a game, I'm certain FFG had to make simplifying assumptions so we aren't playing a ten-hour game (for example, ramming damage or what have you).

3) While FFG wants our money, I don't think it was a nefarious plan to make us buy 8 packs of R&Vs... I think they just wanted to introduce the "Rogue" mechanic to give us a different way to play. Otherwise, we'd get... "OMG... another squadron that makes [blah blah] obsolete. Power creep." Of course, in any asymmetric game... you'll gonna get nuts (me included) trying to break it with a min/max design. The premier events is like the Pokemon League? Might not be your thing. Heck, it's very stressful for me!

4) The fluidity of Armada is such that... if you make a list, I'm confident that someone can make one that will have a favorable matchup against it. Of course, in the competitive scene... you need to factor to win the majority of your matchups.

All in all, I enjoy, for the most part, how the Armada community stays "Hothy" (frosty/chill)... it's good to be a gamer and escape reality for a little bit.

PS I'm sure we'll have future threads that say... Flotillas are broken. Interdictor breaks the game. :-D