When it comes to build threads for Heroes of the Aturi Cluster, the majority opinion is that the Predator EPT is an auto-include.

Predator

EPT 3 points (6 in HotAC)

"When attacking, you may reroll 1 attack die. If the defender's pilot skill value is "2" or lower, you may instead reroll up to 2 attack dice."

The reason it is so good is that about 90% of the ships you will be facing are PS 1-2. Thus you will get to reroll 2 dice on nearly every attack. It is like having a free target lock on every attack, which means that you can use your action to focus (or do something else). If you have multi-attack weapons, such as Twin-Laser Turret and Cluster Missiles, you get to reroll dice on both attacks, which is better than a target lock.

The cost of this EPT is based on the Standard game, where you will face a variety of opponents and lists. Thus the second reroll is not guaranteed. But with HotAC, you are guaranteed to get that second reroll a lot (see above). Thus it is probably undercosted (even at 2x point cost) in HotAC.

So, based on all of the above, is Predator too good?

If so, what is the best solution?

a) Increase cost (i.e. 9-10 points).

b) Errata for HotAC to limit it to only 1 reroll, regardless of defender's PS.

c) Ban it.

d) Let it stand, as HotAC can be brutal and the players could use an edge.

I only bring this up because every Y-Wing build/suggestion is TLT + Predator, which almost guarantees 2 damage a turn. I don't think TLT is an issue, without die modification those 3 AGI TIEs can avoid damage regularly. But Predator is awesome with everything: cannons, turrets, ordnance, and primary attacks. If a card is an auto-include, then it is probably undercosted or overpowered. I think option (a) above is reasonable, as Predator in HotAC is about equal to a PS9 pilot ability. If you are willing to shell out those points, then the ability should be awesome.

I'd be interested to hear other opinions on this.

I've seen some groups either ban it outright or limit themselves to one pilot with Predator

I personally treat it as just reroll 1.

I only bring this up because every Y-Wing build/suggestion is TLT + Predator

Predator is not auto-include over PtL outside of TLTs/Corran Horn.

I only bring this up because every Y-Wing build/suggestion is TLT + Predator

Well that's because TLT is hands down the best turret in the game, and Predator is better than PtL when it comes to multiple attack situations.

Predator is not auto-include over PtL outside of TLTs/Corran Horn.

Pretty sure that even if the pilot takes PtL at PS3, they will most likely take Predator at some point. PtL doesn't seem as good at PS 3 because X-Wings and Y-Wings only have two actions on the bar: Focus and Target Lock. I'd rather Focus with Predator than Focus + Target Lock with Stress (especially on a Y-Wing). Even if you use ordnance, TL + Predator is better than TL + Focus + Stress.

Once the pilot gains enough XP to have multiple EPTs, a different ship, or some extra Actions from Mods, then PtL could be better.

I thought the designers said that Predator doesn't / didn't break the game in their opinion?

I also seem to recall them also saying that TLT's are a little OP, but the game was never designed with them in mind.

From the FAQ :

Q : Is Predator overpowered considering the majority of enemies are PS1 or 2?
A : Possibly. I’m not convinced yet that this needs to be addressed, as Predator’s performance is usually surpassed by better combinations of more powerful Elite and Pilot Abilities as players level up (having a Target Lock is usually better than Predator). However I might make some tweaks to address this in the future.

I don't think Predator is game-breaking per se , but point-for-point it is one of the best EPTs in the game, even at 6 points.

TLT is a reliable XP-farming turret. It lacks the punch to do significant damage, nor can it deal crits on its own, but it is a great turret. I think other turrets are good as well. Ion Cannon Turret is great for running TIEs into rocks/obstacles/mines or off the board. Autoblaster Turret, though limited in range, takes a lot away from the TIEs 3 green dice. Dorsal Turret is a cheap all-around turret.

But TLT + Predator (or any of the turrets plus Predator really) is strong stuff.

The ties are scrubs. It's the elites that do the real work. ...maybe my memory may be skewed.

I only bring this up because every Y-Wing build/suggestion is TLT + Predator

Well that's because TLT is hands down the best turret in the game, and Predator is better than PtL when it comes to multiple attack situations.

Predator is not auto-include over PtL outside of TLTs/Corran Horn.

Predator is available at PS3, before any chip changes are made.

Aside from Engine Upgrade and Vectored Thrusters, the starter ships only have 2 actions, and not very many green maneuvers (aside from using R2 Astromech).

Predator's value at PS3 is far in excess of PtL.

X-Wing: 1.5 hits.

X-Wing with Focus: 2.25 hits

Target Lock + Focus for an X-Wing: 2.8 hits on a pre-selected ship (range 2-3). Offset: Stress, no flexibility of target.

Predator + Focus for an X-Wing: 2.8 Hits on any target (range 2-3).

Predator and no Focus for an X-Wing: 2.25 hits.

PtL with a Stress token: 1.5 hits.

Basically Predator is offering a 1-2 dice reroll on any target at all times. Meaning it combines with missiles/torpedoes (which often consume Target Locks) and sacrifices only .65 hits if a Non-Focus action is taken (BR or Boost).

And it does all this without saddling the ship with stress.

There's a reason people consider Predator "auto-take". It's ridiculously powerful in a meta where the majority of ships are PS2 or lower. It's a massive advantage for low level pilots who are almost always outnumbered and fighting high-agility ships (a TIE Fighter dodges 1.125 hits *before tokens* at range 1-2 and 1.5 hits at Range 3). It's the equivalent of always having a Focus token on attack for a 3 dice attack (X-Wing, Ion Turret or TLT).

In HotAC, a Y-Wing really wants Predator + either TLT or the Ion turret + title. And if you're doing a stress hog, you need Predator, or else you aren't able to modify your dice at all.

As for it being OP, well... I've been running TLT in my HotAC Y-Wing for a bit, and mostly what I'm doing is chipping tokens off TIEs- for Zero XP. Gotta buy Predator ASAP so I can do a bit more damage.

In retrospect, I ought to have saved my XP to get Predator before splurging on a Torpedo. But then I wouldn't have had it for the Decimator. Ah.... Decisions...

I don't see much reason not to include Predator, to be honest. It's freakishly good. If I remember correctly armodgear7 also said he't thinking about changing it.

It is border line broken. I'm not sure if it's worth it if you want to go the A-wing route, though.

It is border line broken. I'm not sure if it's worth it if you want to go the A-wing route, though.

I've avoided it for that reason! lol. i'm about to have my first A wing mission and i hate net lists, I'm gunning for PS5 and then loading up the pilot abilities (Etahn and Gemmer)

Predator with the BTL title and TLT on the Y wing is a harsh combo against Ties in arc, not so much against the big stuff. (play mate loaded up with Bombs not Torps)

The ties are scrubs. It's the elites that do the real work. ...maybe my memory may be skewed.

It is border line broken. I'm not sure if it's worth it if you want to go the A-wing route, though.

These 2 reasons are why I personally feel that it's fine. In my 2 campaigns (one with 4 players, one with 6 players) there are alot of basic TIE/ln's. Early in the campaign, before people are leveled up, predator helps level the playing field by allowing (in a 6 player game) reasonable easy chance to kill 1-3 a turn. Lucky rolls on player and poor by AI can up this. I feel without this ability to thin the herd, esspecially early in the campaign, many mission would find players quickly swamed and over run. Late campaign it does begin to become slightly OP when paiered with other EPT's, but once you have 3-4 EPT combos, you'll be a monster anyway.

Predator with the BTL title and TLT on the Y wing is a harsh combo against Ties in arc, not so much against the big stuff. (play mate loaded up with Bombs not Torps)

I prefer the turret version without BTL title in HotAC. I find it very nice to fly off at random locations and still get shots. I went with Predator for mine. I also went Proton Torpedo heavy. I can shoot 360 with Nera's ability. I have Targeting Astromech and Hobbie's ability, as well. So, I can K-turn, get a TL, lose the stress, and fire my Torpedo 360. Oh, I have GC and Predator, so I can usually re-roll 2 dice, change one to a hit, and one eyeball to a crit. It's very nice.

Predator does have to compete with all the pilot abilities, which while they dont work againstall targets, like Predator does, and certainly not like it does against regular TIES, hey have some great combos for various ideas.

In our group we have about 8 of us playing, only about 5 make it regularly so we have alternates, and only 2 people use predator, and they dont even use it every mission.

So yes, while it is good, it is still 6 points, and some people would rather take a pilot ability or other elite talent.

If a group wants to restrict it, make sure there is consensus

Or maybe people could count it as a level pilot ability, that you cant get until PS6, which some people might just decide they've done fine without it until then and not bother with it.

It's very, very strong, but it's not auto-take, at least not on an X-wing. My Vrill / Klivian / Miranda build doesn't have it. (I dunno what I'll take at PS 9, but it won't be Predator.)

I do have it on my Tarn / Predator / Keyan / PTL TLT Y-wing build, though, and it's definitely powerful. (More powerful than Keyan-ing away two stress from PTL and ExpInt, though? No.)

quick question, do you guys stick with your EPT's but change droids/missiles/turrets between missions or do you chop and change depending on what you are facing?

You know, I find with Predator that it's almost not worth it to do TL anymore. You usually only need to re-roll 1-2 and you get that native with Predator.

quick question, do you guys stick with your EPT's but change droids/missiles/turrets between missions or do you chop and change depending on what you are facing?

I don't think you can change your EPTs. It's not like you can un-learn them.

You know, I find with Predator that it's almost not worth it to do TL anymore. You usually only need to re-roll 1-2 and you get that native with Predator.

quick question, do you guys stick with your EPT's but change droids/missiles/turrets between missions or do you chop and change depending on what you are facing?

I don't think you can change your EPTs. It's not like you can un-learn them.

You can change them. Nothing says you can't. They are like any other upgrade. You can have more, but can only "equip" what you have slots for.

*edit* HotAC pg12 under Upgrades and Modifications

"You can own more upgrades/ abilities than the slots on your player scoresheet and choose which to equip for each mission"

Also note that you can have multiple pilots skills of the same PS. Once you reach PS9 you can have 4 PS9 skills. The slot is opened at the shown PS, but the only requirment for the skill is that " Your pilot skill must be greater than or equal to the Pilot Skill of the Rebel Pilot whose ability you wish to purchase" (pg 13)

@ taulover55 - I would usually stick with what I had, but I did swap a couple once I reached Max PS.

I don't think you can change your EPTs. It's not like you can un-learn them.

We also play that EPTs are not hot-swappable (while other slots are), and we rationalize it the same way. But, by the rules, I think it's a house-rule.

It hasn't come out yet, but I think we'd allow un-learning an EPT (no XP refund) and learning a new one for normal XP cost.

My group came up with house rule to consider the PS of normal ties to be one less than the average of the rebel group instead of PS 1. It made predator useful in early missions specially for thinning the herds how ever as players gained PS predator became less useful which encouraged players to come up with more interesting and often superior combinations.

My group just disregards the targets at or below PS2 portion.

I am currently flying a BTL-A4 Y-wing with ICT+ Proton Torps + Seismic Charges + Engine Upgrade + R2. I chose PTL over Predator because...

1. I hadn't realized how effective it would be in the campaign (2 of my wing-men have used it to great effect, though)

2. PTL allows me to TL + Focus or Boost + TL/Focus. Any stress is a minor concern due to the additional green maneuvers offered by my trust R2 unit.

And the effectiveness of a R1 3dice laser + ICT attack followed up by s Seismic Charge to finish things off is pretty effective.

My friend and I are running it as Pilot abilities and EPT's aren't removable/replacable (you can't unlearn something easily)

I am thinking of possibly implementing a tax of some description on swapping out Mods (to note the time and effort in having to strip old stuff and add new bits) but as we haven't filled all the mod slots yet i don't see this being an issue