Hi guys ! Been a while After a months-long IRL shitstorm, I finally catch a breather and come back to y'all !

So, the meta has quite evolved from what I last saw and that's pretty good !

I wonder how many of you play with ships with little to no upgrades ? I've found my butt consistently kicked when I play the Imperials in Wave 2 (maybe I'm too used to play the Rebels !) especially with lower activations at larger points values.

One thing that I'm wondering is maybe cutting on the upgrades to try out no upgrade lists, but last time I did that was when playing my first initiation game So I turn to you for inspiration

With the Rebels, I tend to go with an upgrades scaling depending on the size : Smaller ships get little upgrades and larger ships get more upgrades (due to better staying power and more synergy). With the Imperials, I haven't found that this strategy worked very well so far.

Rather, I've observed Imperial players perform quite well when using the opposite strategy. Barely upgrading the larger ships, but putting all the awesome upgrades on the small vessels to make them highly specialized machines of doom (Raiders in an Ozzel list with Expanded Launchers and Ordnance Experts, ouch).

What are you guys' thoughts on unupgraded ships ?

Heya!

It's nice to see you back.

I believe that low-upgrades/no-upgrades is a perfectly valid strategy as long as it synergizes with the goal of the build. (I ran raiders with no upgrades and lightly upgraded ISDs in my regional list).

For empire I can see any of the existing ships to be able to run without upgrades, for Rebels it may be a tougher sell due to the fact that their ships are less tough and more prone to a bad roll with all those red dices, so upgrades help to mitigate that.

I actually think an issue with many fleets is too many upgrades!

I think upgrades should be chosen that mesh well with the overall strategy of the fleet, not just to buff one specific ship. In my experience, higher activation of more ships is usually greater than lower activation of buffed ships.

I only put upgrades that are needed for the function of the ship or are exceptional value.My regionals list included 4 unupgraded Raiders, it performed ok, with a top 8 slot. I also often play a rebel list with assault frigates that have only ECM, and CR90s with only LTRC. The only high upgrade ships I ever play are Demolisher and MC30 Torp as they are both high investment ships that must impact in a very small number of turns due to weapon range. Even my big boys only get a small number of must haves.

I think the only Imperial ship you can't make an unupgraded argument for is the Gladiator (benefits so much from Ordnance Experts and Engine Techs and might as well add an ordnance upgrade while you're at it and oh my god where did all these upgrade cards come from?). I like running VSD-Is naked, and prefer to run Raiders lightly upgraded (usually just Ordnance Experts) and on occasion I'll run lightly upgraded ISD-Is as well and they work out fine.

I think the only Imperial ship you can't make an unupgraded argument for is the Gladiator (benefits so much from Ordnance Experts and Engine Techs)

Only if you are running Glad as a gunship....

I would generally agree with Snipa here. Honestly, any ship, on either side, can function just fine without upgrades. However, some do better than others. Including a Glad without upgrades of any kind is generally not taking advantage of what Glads do best. Unupgraded Raiders are fine (though I think a simple Ordinance Experts really ratchets up the power of a Raider). VSD's don't need upgrades unless you are using them as carriers, then you might want an upgrade or two that enhances that role. I personally would never run an ISD II naked as, due to it's power and cost, that ship almost has to be used as the primary ship of your fleet. However, you can easily use it with 1 or 2 upgrades, just to enhance it's punch a little.

Ultimately, ships can be used without upgrades, but it all comes down to the list and what you are trying to accomplish. More activations are nice, but if you significantly weaken the effectiveness of everything so you can squeeze one extra ship in, then you aren't necessarily any better off than if you had not shoehorned that last ship in and used those points to dial up the power of what you already have. Pick a fleet strategy, and build to that, and you'll be fine.

I think the only Imperial ship you can't make an unupgraded argument for is the Gladiator (benefits so much from Ordnance Experts and Engine Techs)

Only if you are running Glad as a gunship....

As opposed to what? Its profile doesn't really recommend it as a carrier compared to other Imperial options (VSD, Gozantis). I suppose you could run a naked Glad-II as a 2 blue dice flak machine but you can make it a flak machine that's also a competent torpedo boat with some upgrades.

At the absolute bare minimum it seems to demand Ordnance Experts. With so many black dice, particularly on the flanks, a 4 point reroll for all of them is golden.

As opposed to what?

A support ship/flank guard. If you're building a fleet and have around 60 points left, I can see a case for a naked gladiator (as opposed to upgraded Raider). Also keep in mind that Vader's fleet (for example) have less need for OE.

A glad does make a good flank guard. We get too easily locked into thinking that because a ship has been effective with a particular set of upgrades that it must always be outfitted with those upgrades.

Keeping the number of upgrades down is also a really great way to ensure that you don't give up too many points to your opponent if one of your ships is destroyed.

I generally shoot for a target of less than 10% of my points on upgrades. It helps me keep my upgrades focused.

That being said, most of my ships will have some small upgrade that helps it do the job I have intended. Dice manipulation being my go to upgrade choice.

As opposed to what?

A support ship/flank guard. If you're building a fleet and have around 60 points left, I can see a case for a naked gladiator (as opposed to upgraded Raider). Also keep in mind that Vader's fleet (for example) have less need for OE.

Or a carrier instead as it is highly manouverable, which is something VSD's cannot offer

Hey guys, cheers for the insights !

I just came out of a game, with 1 ISD 2 with Needa and 2 naked Vics with tons of fighters and at least I wasn't completely facerolled (7-3 vs the usual 9-1 I take when I play Imps).

Really starting to believe that 3 activations is way too little at 400pts even with médium/large ships. Feels bad being forced to field small ships I don't really care about as Imperials

But back to the topic at hand, maybe ensuring a décent enough number of activations first, then going for the upgrades even if that means leaving some stuff blank could be interesting.

Glad to hear the naked Vic's worked well for you! Here is a list I am considering taking to league tomorrow, and it relies heavily on them. I really want to make Devastator work, but this might be my last attempt at it before wave 3 with repair flotillas.

Fleet Summary Page (397 of 400 pts) Faction: The Empire Commander: Darth Vader (36 pts)

Flagship: (142 pts)Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110 pts) Devastator (10 pts) Intel Officer (7 pts) Ordnance Experts (4 pts) XI7 Turbolasers (6 pts) SW-7 Ion Batteries (5 pts)

Fleet Ship 1: (73 pts) Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 pts)

Fleet Ship 2: (73 pts) Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 pts)

Fleet Ship 3: (73 pts) Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 pts) Squadrons( NO ): Objectives: Advanced Gunnery , Fire Lanes , Minefields

Can work

The Vics worked well, but I really want to have 4 activations now as a bare minimum after that game ^^ It was pretty awful getting double arc'd by smaller ships, so I feel that 4 activations is going to be a bare minimum for me just to force them to split their shots, hehehe.

How about replacing a Victory with a GSD2 for more AA ? I'm worried you might be open season for squadrons.

___

Regarding the Devastator, I think it can really work as a bigger ships hunter (well, any black dice, really due to it being easier to read how larger ships broadcast their position !). Go straight for the jugular while shedding tokens against the bigger punches.

I had considered it, but I feel that the extra hull/beef/area denial that the Vic provides was more beneficial than one extra blue aa die. However with apt on a glad 2 it could help against squads while also serving as a flanker/flank protector

I played a game 2 weeks ago where my opponent had a AFII a MC30 and 3 CR90s I had 1 ISD and 2 Glads one with no up grades I killed his AF II on turn 3 and mostly killed the MC 30 so having more activations did not help him and the Glad with no up grades did its job and helped the other to ships by attacking first eating up the defiance tokens.

I played a game 2 weeks ago where my opponent had a AFII a MC30 and 3 CR90s I had 1 ISD and 2 Glads one with no up grades I killed his AF II on turn 3 and mostly killed the MC 30 so having more activations did not help him and the Glad with no up grades did its job and helped the other to ships by attacking first eating up the defiance tokens.

Interesting feedbck ! What was the scenario and the initiative order ? How about squadrons as well ?

contested outpost, he picked for me to go first, and I have 2 ties 4 tie bombers, 2 tie interceptors and one tie advanced. he hat 3 A wings.

Opportunity cost is the idea that if you take one thing you limit your other choices. Most notably this really starts to become obvious when you have just a few points left and you start thinking about the idea if I take this card then I can't take that card. Now there is a term "comparative advantage" that deals with this idea: We compare the two choices and chose the one we feel is better. The comparative advantage is situational, as it will account for the basis for the choice.

In general a well placed upgrade card will improve the performance of a ship, making it do more damage, command more Squadrons or take more damage. In a 5 ship fleet or a three ship fleet the comparative advantage of even a simple choice as taking an upgrade card, squadron or a ship can be profoundly different. However, consider that sometimes a ship is "over capitalised" and we see far more upgrade cards than would be of benefit there is a final choice that may be worth considering, what is the comparative advantage of having a bid?

Because we build lists with different archetypes, strategies and tactics, the only definitive answer is to ensure you build the best list possible is to maximise the benefit you see to making every choice you make and in this game, the choice of "Do Nothing" is also a valid choice worth consideration.

When I first get a ship I like to play it several games with no upgrades. This seems to give me a better baseline to gauge the effectiveness of upgrades I tend to use after.

I think the only Imperial ship you can't make an unupgraded argument for is the Gladiator (benefits so much from Ordnance Experts and Engine Techs)

Only if you are running Glad as a gunship....

As opposed to what? Its profile doesn't really recommend it as a carrier compared to other Imperial options (VSD, Gozantis). I suppose you could run a naked Glad-II as a 2 blue dice flak machine but you can make it a flak machine that's also a competent torpedo boat with some upgrades.

At the absolute bare minimum it seems to demand Ordnance Experts. With so many black dice, particularly on the flanks, a 4 point reroll for all of them is golden.

I like a Glad 2 with ordnance experts only. (of course I also run the Glad 1 demo). But the OE Glad 2 is great as a support ship to ISD/VSD, covering their flanks and adding some great antisquad.

Other than that I usually run Raider 1s with zero upgrades because anything you give them pushes them up toward Gladiator cost levels, which is a much tougher and flexible ship, and defeats their main purpose which is activation support.

Neb B support goes pretty well with zero upgrades.

Can't think of many other ships. Corvette B?

I don't know, pretty much everything has that single upgrade that really makes it sing in stripped-down roles.

CR90A - TRC

CR90B - SW7 or title (depending what you want it to do)

NebB - TRC or Yavaris

GSD - OE

RDR - OE

MC30T - OE

MC30S - OE or TRC

Certainly, people have done the run-naked thing successfully (naked AF-AF-CR90 at Worlds last year), but you're really building for a specific tactic if you're going to be doing that. I think that in most cases it's worth spending the small incremental price increase to put that single upgrade on your almost-naked ship.

MC30T - OE