To quote glorious comrade Plinkett,

"don't any of you [redacted by ISB] tell me it was explained more in the novelization or some Star Wars book. What matters is the movies. I ain't never read one them Star Wars books, or any books in general for that matter, and I ain't about to start."

We're all free to pick and choose, I dinnae like the EU stuff in general and the notion I have to read that to be included in the discussion is kinda... you know, bordering on elitist. And now it's legends, glory to the vermin overlord!

That said, I don't dismiss the EU entirely because, as we've seen, it's still a good point of reference and focusing lens to approach new avenues of expansion into the post-Lucas era. It's helpful so long as it comes with the notice: subject to change without notification. Because you can absolutely talk seriously about a fictional universe, even if it's regarding things such as historical parallels, influences, social commentary, and literary merit.

On a side note, I like the whole First Order bent for their 'recruitment'. More over, I like that it was explicitly explained on screen. It's delightfully topical and puts me in mind of the formation of the janissaries.

Here's a great article IO9 did on arguably the worst book in the EU:

Whoever made that argument needs to read Crystal Star.

Whoever made that argument needs to read Crystal Star.

It has something of a fandom (Waru is weird, but some people like weird).

The Armada Shipyards Thrawn is actually pretty close to what I had imagined. An ability that would allow you to know and impact what your opponent is likely to do.

I would literally reach across the board, shake hands, and tell anyone playing this card that I refuse to play. I still can't believe anyone thought this card would be acceptable to play against, even as a fan creation.

"Here's my carefully constructed list bursting with theme and based on smart, strategic gameplay. Please proceed to make it literally unplayable for the next 6 rounds."

Really?

Its such a weak ability. My stack > Nav Nav Nav Nav Nav Nav. Rearrange anyway you want it will still be a Nav coming next. Sure I would like a command fire at some point but if not no worries.

Leia on a command 1 ship such as a flotilla prevents Thrawn from messing with your squad carriers either. Which will be really useful for dodging slicer tools anyway.

So the real question is why does that ability cost 36pts when its basically useless....

I love this card, and I intend to declare it valid in my games, until they announce an official card.

But I think you guys are missing the true glory of the card. I'd spend far more time doing this to my own ships. If you use it so, it effectively turns an ISD into a 1-command ship.

Here's a great article IO9 did on arguably the worst book in the EU:

Whoever made that argument needs to read Crystal Star.

The Crystal Star was heinous. The only Star Wars book I ever read that I had to put down twice and read something else before coming back to it because it was so painful to read. There were some bad ones, and some good ones, but that one was in a class all it's own. It was actually worse than the Dork Empire comics, and that's saying something!

The Armada Shipyards Thrawn is actually pretty close to what I had imagined. An ability that would allow you to know and impact what your opponent is likely to do.

I would literally reach across the board, shake hands, and tell anyone playing this card that I refuse to play. I still can't believe anyone thought this card would be acceptable to play against, even as a fan creation.

"Here's my carefully constructed list bursting with theme and based on smart, strategic gameplay. Please proceed to make it literally unplayable for the next 6 rounds."

Really?

Its such a weak ability. My stack > Nav Nav Nav Nav Nav Nav. Rearrange anyway you want it will still be a Nav coming next. Sure I would like a command fire at some point but if not no worries.

Leia on a command 1 ship such as a flotilla prevents Thrawn from messing with your squad carriers either. Which will be really useful for dodging slicer tools anyway.

So the real question is why does that ability cost 36pts when its basically useless....

I love this card, and I intend to declare it valid in my games, until they announce an official card.

But I think you guys are missing the true glory of the card. I'd spend far more time doing this to my own ships. If you use it so, it effectively turns an ISD into a 1-command ship.

I'd want it to read "choose one FRIENDLY ship" for that effect, otherwise it would be able to do horrid, horrid things against some fleets, and stuff-all against others

The Armada Shipyards Thrawn is actually pretty close to what I had imagined. An ability that would allow you to know and impact what your opponent is likely to do.

I would literally reach across the board, shake hands, and tell anyone playing this card that I refuse to play. I still can't believe anyone thought this card would be acceptable to play against, even as a fan creation.

"Here's my carefully constructed list bursting with theme and based on smart, strategic gameplay. Please proceed to make it literally unplayable for the next 6 rounds."

Really?

Its such a weak ability. My stack > Nav Nav Nav Nav Nav Nav. Rearrange anyway you want it will still be a Nav coming next. Sure I would like a command fire at some point but if not no worries.

Leia on a command 1 ship such as a flotilla prevents Thrawn from messing with your squad carriers either. Which will be really useful for dodging slicer tools anyway.

So the real question is why does that ability cost 36pts when its basically useless....

I love this card, and I intend to declare it valid in my games, until they announce an official card.

But I think you guys are missing the true glory of the card. I'd spend far more time doing this to my own ships. If you use it so, it effectively turns an ISD into a 1-command ship.

I'd want it to read "choose one FRIENDLY ship" for that effect, otherwise it would be able to do horrid, horrid things against some fleets, and stuff-all against others

It say "Choose one Ship."

My reading is friendly or enemy.

The Armada Shipyards Thrawn is actually pretty close to what I had imagined. An ability that would allow you to know and impact what your opponent is likely to do.

I would literally reach across the board, shake hands, and tell anyone playing this card that I refuse to play. I still can't believe anyone thought this card would be acceptable to play against, even as a fan creation.

"Here's my carefully constructed list bursting with theme and based on smart, strategic gameplay. Please proceed to make it literally unplayable for the next 6 rounds."

Really?

Its such a weak ability. My stack > Nav Nav Nav Nav Nav Nav. Rearrange anyway you want it will still be a Nav coming next. Sure I would like a command fire at some point but if not no worries.

Leia on a command 1 ship such as a flotilla prevents Thrawn from messing with your squad carriers either. Which will be really useful for dodging slicer tools anyway.

So the real question is why does that ability cost 36pts when its basically useless....

I love this card, and I intend to declare it valid in my games, until they announce an official card.

But I think you guys are missing the true glory of the card. I'd spend far more time doing this to my own ships. If you use it so, it effectively turns an ISD into a 1-command ship.

I'd want it to read "choose one FRIENDLY ship" for that effect, otherwise it would be able to do horrid, horrid things against some fleets, and stuff-all against others

It say "Choose one Ship."

My reading is friendly or enemy.

That's the problem. It gives your opponent more control over your ships than you do for no cost.

At that point, I may just let them set all the dials on my ship if I don't or can't use them all as the same command.

It would be very thematic for Thrawn to give you the ability to change your command dials around, since he is all about having the answer to anything his foes might be attempting ready and waiting for them. But even as near-omniscient as he was, his skill was never in forcing an action on his opponents - which is what the ability to change an opponent's dials represent.

Because this version has a more specific set of targets, it could probably be simplified dramatically to be essentially slicer tools for friendlies - at the start of each turn, you may change the top dial of a single friendly ship.

Just because you were so kind to reply, I'll reply to you in detail too.

snip

snip

I'm not going to quote everything that was said, but only show out my biggest concerns:

1) Actually, TFA was pretty much a revisit of the entire original trilogy, two of which were about destroying the Death Star.

If they wanted to make a reboot, that would ahve been fine. They did it with Star Trek and it worked out fine. They reinterpreted the characters and stuff. But they did not copy the fist film from scene to scene for love's sake!

2) Old characters are there because there is a massive audience that wants to know what happened to them, and doesn't feel compelled to read through 30 years of licensed fanfiction to do so. Also, it was potentially the last chance to see them in another Star Wars film, so of course they were going to appear.

Obviously they were there to make a connection but my point was that they were totally weightless and pointless in what they were doing. The return of Han Solo or Leia Organa should have been a momentous occasion, but the writers gave them so stupid lines and they have pout them into such awkward situation that it was painful to watch...

3) Why does Luke need to be an amazing success at training Jedi? Obi-Wan and Yoda BOTH do this for more or less the same reasons, hiding from the Empire until they can train a new generation if there ever is one to begin with. Both failed their final student, Obi-Wan failed his final student AND his Jedi padawan. Luke having the same trouble is not a sign of bad writing, it's actually a pretty solid comparison to most people who have to teach difficult students.

How Obi-Wan and Yoda failed their final student exactly? LUKE was their final student and they prepared him pretty well to face Vader and the Emperor in the end. Sorry but I just can't see your point there.

4) Kind of like how Luke Skywalker eyeballs a critical one-in-a-billion torpedo shot with no training, or how he yanks a lightsabre across a cave with no training in that technique seconds before being eaten alive?

Ok, I give you the one-in-a-billion shot. But between ANH and ESB Luke was actually training a lot from various sources. Of course it's not in the films, but Luke is half Jedi already at the beginning of Empire. Note that DURING Empire he didn't spend only two days in Dagobah but several weeks according to the book.

5) Kylo Ren goes through Anakin Skywalker's entire adult character arc over the course of one movie, except does so from the perspective of a Sith apprentice. In several key ways, he's actually more believable and more easy to take seriously than Darth Vader. So sorry they couldn't get James Earl Jones to voice him.

How is he going throug it? O.o He's turning to the dark side because he's a grumpy little kid whose daddy wasn't there to spank him when needed. Then he basically doesn't do anything other than what Snoke tells him to do. Also becasue Harrison Ford wanted to quit Star Wars after Ep7 I'm sorry but I can't really see any character development in him. Maybe they wanted to add n something, but it's so poorly written you have to really want to see something to it to find anything...

6) "He has too much of his father in him." A line spoken by both Owen Lars and Obi-Wan-Kenobi about Luke. And he defies expectations and becomes the last Jedi Knight. "There is good in him, I know it." Spoken by Luke about Vader and Leia about Kylo.... who kills his father and fully joins the Dark Side.

He did not join fully to the dark side. I bet you in anything that he'll be redeemed ridiculously easily. Plus how can he call himself a Sith or whatever if he did not yet turned to the Dark Side? You should read abot Jacen Solo. HE was struggling with the Dark Side, Ren is jsut crying around. It just doesn't add up. And how weak is he? Rey with no training wipes he floor with him.

7) A brainwashed child snapsback into reality during combat and immediately makes a break for freedom. With a man who proves to be his first trustworthy person outside of the empire, who guarantees him safety if he can get BB-8 unit to the resistance and follows through. This is literally almost identical to Han Solo's backstory from the EU minus an enslaved wookie and the childhood brainwashing.

Err... Wut? If this brainwash thing is so horribly weak that random stormtroopers just break down, why do they use it in the first place? And my question remains: How come it did not come up in hsi training? They do not train stormtroopers in battle simulation? There are no stress tests? HOW????? Do they use dolls when they train?! And you still did not explain to me how the bromance with Poe - who is a seasoned soldier by the way - comes into picture. Han and Luke at least spent almost a whole movie together, but Fynn and Poe had like two or three scenes together.

8) This is literally the first thing they did with the EU.

Literally what? Emprie vs. Rebellion turned into Empire vs. Republic then Republic vs. Sii-Ruvi, then Republic vs. itself, then... In most of the books it's not even the sake of the galaxy is on balance. Heck, in some cases the tide even turns and the Republic/GA becomes the oppressing force... But in Ep7 they just recreated the same ragtag band of rebels against big evil menacing empire thing which is just stupid.

9) So all they would have had to do is be locked into 30 years of fanfiction with no quality control, no cohesive background for most of its characters, no overarching backstory, no major changes to the status quo, and no surprises for long time fans. I guarantee you would have been screaming your head off about that.

Yeah, they could have done that. I really don't see the issue with that. Ok, there were some weak point in the Yuuzhan Vong arc, but what came after that was pretty well written in my opinion. They could ahve stick to that. They could have rebooted the whole series. Anything BUT this. Again, this is my opinion only.

No original ideas?

The Empire is being lead by a non-force user,

We saw that in verious EU books already.

the good guys are a Stormtrooper and an orphan,

Replace it with a smuggler and an orphan.

the bad guys are Han Solo's kid and Ronald Weasley,

EU, ditto.

we got our first real taste of the idea of a broad interstellar pirate or mercenary fleet,

You mean like the Smugglers Alliance? Or the Hapan Royal Fleet (from a certain point of view)?

the Rebellion has been essentially defeated, the new Death Star actually completed it's primary mission straight off, and a major hero died.

Defeated like how? The point of the rebellion was to overthrow the Empire and they managed to do so. And how did the Death Star completed its mission? By blowing up the Emperor and eventually leading the Empire to defeat? I really can't follow you there. And the death of a major hero was - unfortunately - more like the will of Harrison Ford being fed up by Star Wars (he barely accepted to be part of Jedi) than courageous storywriting. Frankly, I had somewhat high hopes when I heard that Lawrence Kasdan will be working on Ep7 but I still think that it was a huge letdown and I really can't see in your arguments that would change anything.

And as a footnote: I don't think it is possible to talk seriously (can you even talk seriously about a fictional universe?) about Star Wars without knowing some of the books at least.

Luke the Jedi: Luke FAILS against the Emperor and Vader in every conceivable way, it is only by Vader turning against the emperor that he doesn't die. Even Yoda acknowledges that he is not a Jedi, and that only by defeating both the Emperor and Vader can he be one. He does not. Luke Skywalker is not a Jedi Knight, and never was. He is only the best of the remaining force users. He's gone into exile because he is trying to learn about how to actually be and train Jedi in their oldest monasteries.

The Death Star: The new superweapon, your "remade Death Star," completely wipes out the Republic and their navy leaving the First Order as the only dominant military force in the galaxy. Even after being destroyed by the Resistance, the Resistance is itself a fringe group with cast-off military gear and far behind in power against the FO.

Smugglers and pirates: We saw ACTUAL smugglers in an ACTUAL Star Wars movie, and now are seeing ACTUAL pirates in an ACTUAL Star Wars TV show. Your 20 year old fanfiction is now invalid. Deal with it.

Kylo Ren: Jacen Solo didn't become a Dark Jedi until the Legacy of the Force series, and did so simply because he was told he had to by a Sith and a force dream. I don't consider that good writing and neither should you. Again, your fanfiction is invalid.

Brainwashing: Why should i need to come up with backstory for every single thing? Are you really unable to envision someone's brainwashing wearing off? Stormtroopers are intelligent, they're people, they're trained to be officers and they're trained to blend into society when not in armor. That dude yelling "TRAITOR" is genuinely angry because they were best friends. The Stormtroopers are self-aware enough to avoid entering a room with an angry Kylo Ren, or mock a bound captive, or any number of other actions of perfectly normal people. If their loyalty to the FO is questioned, that doesn't suddenly make them incapable of empathy or compassion. That empathy and compassion was hijacked, that's what brainwashing is. So Finn stops being loyal, and he leaves. He doesn't turn into a pumpkin. Just like the clones, just like numerous Imperial troopers and pilots and officers in the EU. Heck, there was a whole sequence in the Rogue Squadron books that did this same thing with the squad playing sabbac against Imperial pilots, who advised them when a scramble alarm went off that the pot would go to the Imperial survivor's fund.

As for the acting and dialogue, take off your rose colored glasses and go watch the original trilogy some time. Once you scrub the nostalgia off, the writing was hardly better, especially in the first film.

Can we perhaps not use this thread to argue the relative merits or lack thereof between the EU and new canon, and instead keep it about Thrawn's return to canon status and what it means for Armada?

Personally, I'm pretty excited to see what the return of Thrawn entails for some of the other parts of the EU that were unarguably awesome, such as Lt. Ketch!

Personally, I'm pretty excited to see what the return of Thrawn entails for some of the other parts of the EU that were unarguably awesome, such as Lt. Ketch!

Yes, there's no Strawman quite like a Fake Ewok .

Personally, I'm pretty excited to see what the return of Thrawn entails for some of the other parts of the EU that were unarguably awesome, such as Lt. Ketch!

Yes, there's no Strawman quite like a Fake Ewok .

Yub yub, Commander

Personally, I'm pretty excited to see what the return of Thrawn entails for some of the other parts of the EU that were unarguably awesome, such as Lt. Ketch!

Yes, there's no Strawman quite like a Fake Ewok .

Yub yub, Commander

Does this mean you have to Stand Naked in front of everyone at some point?

Personally, I'm pretty excited to see what the return of Thrawn entails for some of the other parts of the EU that were unarguably awesome, such as Lt. Ketch!

Yes, there's no Strawman quite like a Fake Ewok .

Yub yub, Commander

Does this mean you have to Stand Naked in front of everyone at some point?

Never actually read it.

Can we perhaps not use this thread to argue the relative merits or lack thereof between the EU and new canon, and instead keep it about Thrawn's return to canon status and what it means for Armada?

Personally, I'm pretty excited to see what the return of Thrawn entails for some of the other parts of the EU that were unarguably awesome, such as Lt. Ketch!

Hush! We're just moments away from a flamewar. Don't undermine my entertainment.

Personally, I like the prospect of Thrawn coming back. I think the notion of his analysis of other cultures is cute, though as a social scientist, I don't find cultural analyses all that compelling. But, since this is fiction, why the hell not?

However, what do you guys say to the criticism that he's a 'Marty Stu' character?

Never actually read it.

Oh, you are doing yourself a massive disfavour - the X-Wing series, the Wraith Squadron arc in particular, are some of the best books by far in the EU. Wedge and a bunch of other characters that were really minor in the films take center stage, and the writing is top notch.

But I disagree.

I enjoyed Michael Stackpole's works in the BattleTech Fiction, but I didn't in the X-Wing Series.

Mostly for the same reasons.

Can we perhaps not use this thread to argue the relative merits or lack thereof between the EU and new canon, and instead keep it about Thrawn's return to canon status and what it means for Armada?

Personally, I'm pretty excited to see what the return of Thrawn entails for some of the other parts of the EU that were unarguably awesome, such as Lt. Ketch!

Hush! We're just moments away from a flamewar. Don't undermine my entertainment.

Personally, I like the prospect of Thrawn coming back. I think the notion of his analysis of other cultures is cute, though as a social scientist, I don't find cultural analyses all that compelling. But, since this is fiction, why the hell not?

However, what do you guys say to the criticism that he's a 'Marty Stu' character?

No argument here, he kinda was. As much as I think his character concept was and still is excellent, I'm hoping he gets a little more depth from Rebels and his new novel. I was more of a fan of Pellaeon - not a bad guy by any stretch, but a firm believer in the Empire by dint of wanting peace and order to replace the anarchy and violence of the waning years of the Old Republic

Back to thrawn, hows this for an ability;

Your opponent draws a picture. You study it, then kick him in the nards. Proceed as normal.

Back to thrawn, hows this for an ability;

Your opponent draws a picture. You study it, then kick him in the nards. Proceed as normal.

Back to thrawn, hows this for an ability;

Your opponent draws a picture. You study it, then kick him in the nards. Proceed as normal.

Thematic, though it certainly would require an FAQ ruling for how one is supposed to proceed when your opponent is a member of the fairer sex

Uhm...I don't understand. We're playing star wars, not baking a delicious pie.

Seriously though, I believe all people are equal. Kick her in the queefer. Thrawn don't give a FAQ bout no chivalry.

However, what do you guys say to the criticism that he's a 'Marty Stu' character?

Competency is the one thing the Star Wars novels never could portray very well. They portrayed ruthlessness, danger, hatred, insanity and more. But competence? Most Imperial villains tended to be, for lack of a better word, morons. The common clay of the new Empire.

And suddenly, here's Thrawn. Accustomed to power, a genius at understanding his opponent, cultured, not intimidated by people as smart or as ambitious as he is. Ruthless in discipline, but fair in judgement.

Thrawn was everything the Emperor and Vader weren't. Instead of being a dark lord or a puppet master he was exactly what appeared on the tin: a competent military commander leading a powerful army to victory.

Too bad he decided to hang out with the Noghri!