MILLANDSON said:

Im not sure I agree with you completely there. If the apocrypha were still intended to be official rules then surely FFG would host the same PDF in the Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader support sections respectively?

Somehow I get the feeling that they want to re-do the rules for vehicles or something (especially for rogue trader since the rules for void craft in the apocrypha aren't compatible with starship combat at all).

Granted the Apocrypha: Vehicles is the best source already released, but it would be a bit of a stretch to still call it "official" in my opinion. FFG have after all changed a lot of things from the original BI publications for Dark Heresy.

RocketPropelledGrenade said:

Bomber tokens could get diminished over time (depending on how many hits they sustained) which makes it quite easy to imagine that sometimes only a single bomber made it through, and yet one single bomber can in fact cause a lot of damage to a starship with a bit of luck and a large degree of skill on the side of the pilot. The point with using bombers and torpedos is to fly inside the voidshields of the target vessel and thus be able to inflict a large degree of damage since the voidshields are usually the barrier that soak up the most horrendous damage done to starships in regular combat.

Also, I don't think the focus fire from the turrets are that bad. After all, all the turret rating do to a hit an rund test is providing penalties to the Pilot (Spacecraft) skill, nothing more. Why should it be much harder to avoid turret fire in a bomber than in a clumsy and awkward boarding craft?

So I don't believe that focused turret fire has to be as "focused" as it is made out to be. But what I would like to know is how many turret shots can a bomber (or other type of ordnance type vessel) be expected to be subjected to when closing on a starship? Will the range be a factor? (i.e will the fire become more intense the closer you are to the enemy vessel or won't it make any difference?) How many hits from turret fire can different types of ordnance craft expect to soak up before they are crippled and destroyed? (will the "go boom!" on just one hit or do they have sufficient armour and perhaps local force field generaters making them able to soak up a certain amount of turret fire?). What sort of speed would ordnance craft have measured in VU's during each Strategic Turn? (I have worked up a few numbers as houserules myself, but I would like to see something official regarding the matter)

I don't really care how "likely" it is for a single guncutter to actually make it through the barrage of turret fire when closing with a starship, and I don't want to have to GM fiat if the PC's attempting it are destroyed on the spot for even trying or if they manage to make it through. I want to see rules integrated with the starship combat rules but for smaller, non-warp capable craft and how they would function in relation to big warp-capable vessels, ranging from shuttles, lighters, guncutters, void fighters, landers, freighters and void bombers. It is currently the biggest gap in the Starship combat rules and I hope that it will be adressed with the first RT supplement that comes out after the GM kit.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Vehicle rules were, according to the designer diaries , a planned part of the Rogue Trader rulebook which got cut for space reasons. Given that the Alien Generator in the Dark Heresy GM Toolkit, and the expanded rules for Corruption in The Radical's Handbook were both originally going to be in the rulebook, but were cut for space, I can easily imagine that the elements cut from the Rogue Trader rulebook will find their way into publication at some point.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Hopefully. Though from what I interpreted from the designer diaries it seemed like most of the work on vehicle rules had alreay been written. I wonder why they didn't just toss that in with the GM screen (it would certainly garner more interest to buy it, because GM screens aren't really a high priority amiong gaming groups as it is).

In any case, I just want to see something done for it in the future.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Depends on how big the vehicle rules are. The material accompanying a GM screen seems often to be minor supplemental material (the Alien Generator from Dark Heresy being a good example of this) - small things that can be collected together in a little booklet. Depending on how much detail (and how many vehicles - a set of vehicle rules which only provides rules for three vehicles will be complained about) the vehicle rules have, they may not have been small enough to put within the GM Screen booklet.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

True. But still, I mean could rules for vehicles really be that much more expanded than the Apocrypha: Vehicles that BI released? To me that seems like something reasonable to include in a booklet for a GM screen. I mean how many pages do the apocrypha take up?

Anyhow, as long as we get to see some vehicles rules and integrating the relevant void craft to the starship combat rules someday, I'll be happy.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Apocrypha got nice combat rules for multiple vehicle combat. But if it is just your guncutter and one or two fighter craft then I prefer a more detailed method. Just as the Spaceship combat does not just use the BFG rules. Personally I would prefer the rules to be such that we can use the weaponry found in the RT book. I mean, we have the stats for the likes of Autocannons and Lascannons, why not use them?

Sister Callidia said:

Oh yes, if it was just a battle between a bunch of fighters, I wouldn't complain but rather stick with the apocrypha and use it. The problems arise when trying to see what happens when guncutters and void bombers start to interact with ginormous starships.

To be honest, I don't really have a clue what type of weapons a starship use for defensive turrets. It could be Hydra flak cannons, but it could simply be lascannons with extended range as well. And also, how many incoming shots from the turrets would a smaller craft expect to face when closing with a starship? 4? 10? 300? The turret rating doesn't divulge any of the needed information, it just provides a penalty to piloting tests and if you fail there's two results: either you have to turn back, or you get blown to pieces.

Fine and dandy if you want to be harsh, grim and realistic, but there's plenty of fluff describing ace pilots that dodge, yawn and roll through streams of starship turret fire and emplaced AA fire to achieve whatever objective they might have that brings them so close to the defensive guns of fortified bases or starships. So really: what could be more "Rogue Trader"-ish than a daring Void Master going alone through a hellish barrage of turret fire, deftly avoiding getting hit? To me, that sounds cool and dramatic. "Penalty to pilot test and either: turn back or be destroyed" however does not sound very cool and dramatic, just overly simplified but perhaps fitting for engagements between big starships.

But there might come a time when the explorers need to go up against, or perhaps flee from a starship with just a measly guncutter or void bomber, and when that time comes I'd like to see some integrated, solid rules for it.

GM fiat might be useful for several purposes, but quite frankly I have to say that I dislike having to fiat certain things in a scenario. In Rogue Trader, this would be one of them, and I think a lot of GM's agree with me on that one.

In my first game, I played the introduction adventures and had some fun dogfighting with Void Wasp fighters and the pc's GunCutter. Of course I had to kit bash a semi working combat system to do so. With the void master using his skills to dodge incoming fire and perform dangerous maneuvers and a few of the other pc's manning a twin linked autocannon and the quad heavy bolter turret I ruled to be the arnament of their guncutter. We had a blast using this system. However, I would love to see an official set of rules.

About the turrets of a starship, I would use standard issue WH40k weaponry. Nothing wrong with a few Battlecannons sending out those high explosive blasts for the long range and rapid firing autocannons or multilasers for those ships that dare to come close. Think WW II bombing runs and the flak they were facing. Load puffs of smoke, the rattle of shrapnell on the hull, the droning voice of the bombing servitor saying: Bombing bombing bombing and last but not least the load praying of the crew who know that a direct hit of one of those puffs spell doom to the bomber.

Which tells me that I have some preparation to do for my next game. Which will involve a hit and run with the main crew to liberate some special container aboard that enemy vessel before warp energies rip them apart.

I don't plan on doing a great deal of dog fighting in my campain. I imagine that the gun cutter will spend more time shooting it's weapons at people on the ground. In that regard, and from the fact that gun cutter weapons seem to be vehicle mounted versions of weapons already written up in the book, I think Guncutter combat can be pretty much taken care of with the person-to-person rules. The GM would have to come up with some penalties for fireing the guncutters weapons, while it is flying arround (when it hovers I don't think their is a problem) and you need to come up with some rules for shooting at people on the gun cutter. I think I will start out with my players firing door-gun's or their equivilent, so I don't have to worry to much about the gun-cutter itself taking damage, only the people in it. Eventually I will need some sort of rules for guncutters getting shot at.