Great thread.....I'm going to try it on Y-bricks and they'll obviously be worth the 2 points. I cannot however see any trade that I'd make on my X-wing lists; it just doesn't add up. But hey, one of you experts can easily prove me wrong I'm sure; let us know how that works out for you.

more cons

can't use with PTL as a form of "pseudo sensors", which means

1. can't barrel-roll after getting blocked as opposed to before
2. can't barrel-roll after going through a space peanut
3. cannot intentionally block yourself in order to deny your opponent shots on your ship

but bb-8 can

bb-8's a very flexible and useful little guy

That was already in my list. BB-8 gives you those actions pre-maneuver, VT gives you that action post maneuver. Advanced Sensors is good, but sometimes people just want to BR after any of their maneuvers. Sorry, but i think you're not only overvaluing BB-8 but undervaluing VT.

All I'm gonna say is don't knock it till you try it.

B-rolling my PS10 Wedge out of arc of Whisper and keeping a range 1 shot definitely changed the outcome of that game. I've also dodged about 3 obstacles when I needed to dip out of some situations with the the 3-bank/hard. Something BB-8 wouldn't have done for me.

As for the B-roll on my K-Wardens into blocking my buddy's defender also worked out great. They still got the evade token but it wasn't enough when they rolled triple focus against Jake's Procket.

IA and BB-8 are cool, but there are such things as different builds. I'm pretty happy with my results so far, I might actually start bringing VT-65s to tournaments once the ARC drops!

bb-8's a very flexible and useful little guy

That was already in my list. BB-8 gives you those actions pre-maneuver, VT gives you that action post maneuver. Advanced Sensors is good, but sometimes people just want to BR after any of their maneuvers. Sorry, but i think you're not only overvaluing BB-8 but undervaluing VT.

I'm really not

see, funny thing is, we already have ships that can BR after any ("any" doesn't exist, not even tycho can pull ks after he's stressed and so he won't be rolling after those) most of their maneuvers

we've had them since the core set

they're (Tie Fighters and just about every other ship that can barrel-roll, not counting pre-fix advance) not only more efficient than the X, but they're also more efficient than X before it drops 2 points on its barrel-roll tax

if the X were a ship that could somehow perform a function beyond its crappy jousting, like say the Falcon's infuriating turret or some kind of utility like the Stress Y or even a HWK named pilot, then yeah you might be able to abuse VTs. But sadly, we're not getting anything special, just bad jouster that is now a worse jouster with barrel-roll

the only two Xs that transcend jousting are Wes and Biggs due to their abilities, plus potentially whoever you stick bb-8 on depending on how amazing you are with that little droid. There's also r3-a2 if you think his stress can justify the weight of the ship he has to carry

this is, of course, never to suggest that you won't have fun with VTs (post maneuver makes every PS more fun, despite how some like to win about ace wing!) just that we're really not getting anything new . This isn't Cloak or SLAM or some revolutionary new action, it's barrel-roll

It also isn't like we're slapping barrel-roll on a ship that will suddenly leap in power because the only thing holding it back was the lack of mobility. No, lack of mobility is just one of the X's many many faults, with the chief among them being that it's a basic jousting ship without the efficiency needed to perform the function it was designed to

Erm - your XXX list is a repeat of the Wardens...?

Fixed it! Thanks for the catch, must've copy-pasted the same list twice... Wedge Antilles (29) Adaptability (0) R2-D2 (4) Vectored Thrusters (2) Wes Janson (29) Veteran Instincts (1) R2 Astromech (1) Vectored Thrusters (2) Luke Skywalker (28) Veteran Instincts (1) R5-P9 (3) Integrated Astromech (0) Total: 100 View in Yet Another Squad Builder

You put R2-D2 on the wrong ship therefore your list and argument are invalid.

Yeah, Wedge Antilles is a funny way of spelling Corran Horn.

bb-8's a very flexible and useful little guy

That was already in my list. BB-8 gives you those actions pre-maneuver, VT gives you that action post maneuver. Advanced Sensors is good, but sometimes people just want to BR after any of their maneuvers. Sorry, but i think you're not only overvaluing BB-8 but undervaluing VT.

I'm really not

see, funny thing is, we already have ships that can BR after any ("any" doesn't exist, not even tycho can pull ks after he's stressed and so he won't be rolling after those) most of their maneuvers

we've had them since the core set

they're (Tie Fighters and just about every other ship that can barrel-roll, not counting pre-fix advance) not only more efficient than the X, but they're also more efficient than X before it drops 2 points on its barrel-roll tax

if the X were a ship that could somehow perform a function beyond its crappy jousting, like say the Falcon's infuriating turret or some kind of utility like the Stress Y or even a HWK named pilot, then yeah you might be able to abuse VTs. But sadly, we're not getting anything special, just bad jouster that is now a worse jouster with barrel-roll

the only two Xs that transcend jousting are Wes and Biggs due to their abilities, plus potentially whoever you stick bb-8 on depending on how amazing you are with that little droid. There's also r3-a2 if you think his stress can justify the weight of the ship he has to carry

this is, of course, never to suggest that you won't have fun with VTs (post maneuver makes every PS more fun, despite how some like to win about ace wing!) just that we're really not getting anything new . This isn't Cloak or SLAM or some revolutionary new action, it's barrel-roll

It also isn't like we're slapping barrel-roll on a ship that will suddenly leap in power because the only thing holding it back was the lack of mobility. No, lack of mobility is just one of the X's many many faults, with the chief among them being that it's a basic jousting ship without the efficiency needed to perform the function it was designed to

see but the thing is that an X with a reposition whenever it wants it has the ability to transcend jousting all on its own, which is exactly what happened with the t-70, which isnt quite a jouster nor an arc dodger, but a combination of both. the t-65 could be that. but you're set in your ways and nothing i say will convince you otherwise, no matter the merit of my argument.

Last I checked, it takes

And never on Xs. The difference IA makes is just enormous

I still don't understand this slavish devotion to a one-shot modification to the exclusion of all other possibilities. I'd rather have something that can help me the entire game rather than something that lets me avoid a damage card ONCE, no matter what it costs.

you can't do **** when you're dead

IA helps you not die embarrassingly fast

Last I checked, it takes five damage to blow up an X-Wing. IA stops one. Once. Maybe two if it chucks a Direct Hit, but it's still a one-shot save. If you're down to the point where you need IA to prevent the single point of damage that will kill you, you've got bigger problems at the moment.

I'm not saying it's not a good upgrade. But I think the way the conversation always goes, "Hey, how about --" "NO, INTEGRATED ASTROMECH" is a little tiresome.

do you get mad when people run the title on tie advanceds

We didn't get 4 IA in one expansion.

The X-wing is also not nearly as suck as the Advanced was.

So...maybe it's not the same type of 'fix' that the Advanced title was i.e. one that is absolutely necessary.

That being said I wouldn't mind seeing an X-wing title that have a -2 point reduction to a modification.

And never on Xs. The difference IA makes is just enormous

I still don't understand this slavish devotion to a one-shot modification to the exclusion of all other possibilities. I'd rather have something that can help me the entire game rather than something that lets me avoid a damage card ONCE, no matter what it costs.

Yup. I ran Wes the other night with IA, and an EU would have come in handy a few times. Probably would have let me finish the game a good turn or two sooner instead of having to chase Manaroo around the board until she got stressed/stuck in a debris field and couldn't boost/BR out of arc.

BB-8/IA is a good middle ground where you get decent mobility and the extra HP, but if i really want my X-Wings to be as hunter-killer as possible, i would prefer VT. BB-8 is all defensive, and as a player/person, when i play games i'm more of an aggressive player. I just like the freedom that VT gives over BB-8. It allows my X-Wings to get far greater range and reach. I can execute a 3 hard turn and BR after it. Can't do that with BB-8. And, if you ever get stressed, you cannot use BB-8. So basically, the only time you will ever get 3 actions is if you performed the same BB-8 charade last turn and aren't stressed, did not execute a red maneuver last turn, or did not PTL off a white maneuver last turn.

The same is not true of VT. As long as you end your maneuver unstressed, you can get two actions. It's so much less restricting than BB-8 is. I vastly favor a balanced, always effective freedom than a strict set of circumstances that works better when it finally activates.

OK I'm giving double Vectored Thrusters a go this week, with the following list:

Wedge with R5-P9, Predator, VT

Wes with Adaptability, R2-D2, VT

Jake Farrell with Veteran Instincts, Proton Rockets, Guidance Chips

3 PS9's for flexibility. This Jake set up is very good at getting a good Procket shot in early. I'm hoping this will tempt players not to shoot at Wedge or Wes in the early going. After that, the high PS, arc dodging and double regen should be a decent counter to most lists. I don't think it will match up well to triple boats, but I think it will be fun to play...

Although that Wedge build could be swapped for Poe with Adaptability, R5-P9, and Autothrusters. Still 3 PS9's and probably getting more out of R5-P9 with Poe's ability and the extra shield.