Measuring from the corner is correct according to current wording of the rules for measuring.
But only when that corner is the closest point.
Captain obvious right here!
Well, I also thought that measuring in-arc shots from within the attacker's arc was obvious. I was apparently mistaken about that one.
Well, I also thought that measuring in-arc shots from within the attacker's arc was obvious. I was apparently mistaken about that one.
That's the problem...
Everyone finds it obvious, everyone assumes that's the way it should be done and everyone does it that way.
But there's nothing in the rules to support it.
It is obvious, and everyone does it that way, except when they have custom range templates (acrylic, or a cut cardboard template): you place the range template on the mat and try to move it between the two ships. If it touches both of them, then the ships are in that range. That results in measuring from nearest to nearest on the base. I'll have to pay attention when I play and see if that ever makes a difference.
It is obvious, and everyone does it that way, except when they have custom range templates (acrylic, or a cut cardboard template): you place the range template on the mat and try to move it between the two ships. If it touches both of them, then the ships are in that range. That results in measuring from nearest to nearest on the base. I'll have to pay attention when I play and see if that ever makes a difference.
Only touching isn't actually in range - it needs to overlap the target ship.
Rules Reference, pg.16, under "Range":
Edited by kraedinThe range is the band of the range ruler that falls over the closest point of the second ship.
It is obvious, and everyone does it that way, except when they have custom range templates (acrylic, or a cut cardboard template): you place the range template on the mat and try to move it between the two ships. If it touches both of them, then the ships are in that range. That results in measuring from nearest to nearest on the base. I'll have to pay attention when I play and see if that ever makes a difference.
Only touching isn't actually in range - it needs to overlap the target ship.
Rules Reference, pg.16, under "Range":
The range is the band of the range ruler that falls over the closest point of the second ship.
Yes, since this sub-forum is all about being pedantic. If the partial measurement template cannot pass cleanly between two ships without moving them, then the template would overlap.
My point was that the range ruler could overlap only the plastic portion of the base which is technically not in arc. I don't know that I've seen a situation where some part of the bases were within range 1 of each other and there was any dispute whether or not the attack was range 1.
A) From the corner of the attacker's plastic base
B) From the edge of the attacker's printed arc
I for one normally use method B.
However, reading the rules reference section on measuring range seems to point to method A.
To measure range between two ships, place the range ruler over the point of the first ship that is closest to the second ship, then point the other end of the ruler toward the point of the second ship’s base that is closest to the first base. The range is the band of the range ruler that falls over the closest point of the second ship.
When measuring range for an attack, the attacker measures to the closest point of the target ship that is inside the attacker’s firing arc.
The first paragraph says to use closest point to closest point (aka, base corner to base corner). The second paragraph only mentions that you measure to the closest point of the target ship that is in arc - it makes no mention of using a point on the attacker's base that is in arc.
Thoughts?
The difference in the length of the two measurements at points being measured from in the graphic are so small that the chances of it actually making a difference in what range the defending ship is in are miniscule. And I would think that even if you have the acrylic range rulers that have each range individually there is a good chance they could be "off" from the official length by the same length as the difference between these two measurements due to tolerances in manufacturing. But I am still learning so I don't know how closely anyone tracks these things. I do know that in my LGS there are some players that have simply cut one of the two range rulers the have due to owning both base sets and I can guarantee you that they can be "off" of length by enough to more than cover the difference in length shown above.
A) From the corner of the attacker's plastic base
B) From the edge of the attacker's printed arc
I for one normally use method B.
However, reading the rules reference section on measuring range seems to point to method A.
To measure range between two ships, place the range ruler over the point of the first ship that is closest to the second ship, then point the other end of the ruler toward the point of the second ship’s base that is closest to the first base. The range is the band of the range ruler that falls over the closest point of the second ship.
When measuring range for an attack, the attacker measures to the closest point of the target ship that is inside the attacker’s firing arc.
The first paragraph says to use closest point to closest point (aka, base corner to base corner). The second paragraph only mentions that you measure to the closest point of the target ship that is in arc - it makes no mention of using a point on the attacker's base that is in arc.
Thoughts?
The difference in the length of the two measurements at points being measured from in the graphic are so small that the chances of it actually making a difference in what range the defending ship is in are miniscule. And I would think that even if you have the acrylic range rulers that have each range individually there is a good chance they could be "off" from the official length by the same length as the difference between these two measurements due to tolerances in manufacturing. But I am still learning so I don't know how closely anyone tracks these things. I do know that in my LGS there are some players that have simply cut one of the two range rulers the have due to owning both base sets and I can guarantee you that they can be "off" of length by enough to more than cover the difference in length shown above.
EDIT: That's not right. I just realized that the same point on the defender is being measured to in both cases in the example. The difference should be more or leas constant.
Edited by WWHSDI can't find anything that explicitly states what point on attacking ships we measure from during a normal attack without a turret weapon. However, the firing arc is there to depict the area in which the attacker is able to attack. To me (and this is just my opinion), the fact that the attacker can't shoot outside the firing arc leads me to believe that the measurement should be from the closest point in the arc.
The devs have gone to great lengths to describe how to measure for weapons that fire out of arc. They explain that in those situations we measure between the closest points on both ships even if those points are out of arc. In my opinion, and once again there is no explicit guidance, these explanations are there to show us how to do something different than the standard measurement.
If we walk that logic backwards, it seems to me that we say "measuring from closest to closest even if out of arc" is non-standard, then "measuring closest to closest in arc" could be standard. With a weapon that can only fire in arc, that is really the only range that matters for the attackers measurement.
Finally, if we look to the faq at the section covering "Inside Firing Arc at Range X". We can see that when measuring for abilities that rely on the target being inside the firing arc at a certain range, the measurement is taken from inside the firing arc. A non-turret attack requires the target to be in arc and at range 1-3. This says to me that the measurement happens in arc.
The point of origin for the measurement of a basic (non-turret) attack need not be explicitly defined because, in my opinion, the attack can only originate from within the firing arc. Instances of attacking that are directed to measure from outside the arc are explicitly defined.
All that being said, there isn't a whole lot of distance between the arc and the corner of the base. In fact, that distance looks awfully close to the width of the range lines on the ruler you get with the core set. Plus, I have the Obi Wan crew card so I can spend a target lock to add one die when attacking or defending for the rest of the round.
This is off topic, but is something that often comes up.
There is no case where the range ruler is touching, but didn't overlap the ship.
It is obvious, and everyone does it that way, except when they have custom range templates (acrylic, or a cut cardboard template): you place the range template on the mat and try to move it between the two ships. If it touches both of them, then the ships are in that range. That results in measuring from nearest to nearest on the base. I'll have to pay attention when I play and see if that ever makes a difference.
Only touching isn't actually in range - it needs to overlap the target ship.
If the range ruler touches the 2 bases... it's because it's overlapping them.
This isn't a theoretical math problem where you have a 1m long stick and there is *exactly* 1m between 2 objects.
This is a game with real physical components. There is no case where:
It is always either:
Same goes for determining if a ship or maneuver template overlaps an obstacle or other ship. It's either overlapping or it's not. It will never be "just touching, but not overlapping".
Sure, it can be a really freaking close call , heck it could even be too close to call. If it is, you call over a TO and if he also finds it too close to call, you roll a die for it.
Edited by Klutz