This came up at a tournament a while back, we called over the TO for a LOS and a range check for long or medium and it turned into something else. It was a tournament, and the call really didn't impact our game, but I thought I'd drop a line over here and get some input.

The Victory wants to shoot at the side arc of the Nebulon because it has less shields. In our game it was really close and hard to tell which way LOS to the side went, so we abdicated that desicion to the TO.

The TO's response was basically that I did not have LOS, but even if I did, I wouldn't be able to take the shot because the closest point for the side arc was that front corner with the firing arc line. Since those lines belong to both adjacent firing arcs, if I was to shoot the side arc I would be shooting through the front arc too, since the line belongs to the front in addition to the side. Therefore the only shot I could take, even if LOS was ok, was to the front arc because it was closer.

At the time I disagreed with the rest of it, but since I didn't have LOS it was a non-issue.

I thought I'd posit the question here.

s that front corner both front hull zone and side hull zone at the same time? As shown up there am I disallowed from shooting at one of the two arcs?

Firing arcs definitely include the full width of the lines, which means that there is a sliver of space in 2 firing different firing arcs.

Hull zones are delineated by the lines, it doesn't necessarily include them, at least in their entirety. There might be a geometrical difference, albeit slight, between the two.

We attack hull zones, not firing arcs.

Can there be a point that belongs to 2 hull zones?

Some pertinant rules :

Firing Arc Each ship token has four printed firing arc lines which define its four firing arcs, one for each hull zone.

• A firing arc includes the width of the firing arc lines that border it

Hull Zones A hull zone is a section of a ship token delineated by the two firing arc lines that border it. It does not include any part of the plastic base.

• Each ship has four hull zones: front, left, right, and rear.

From Pg 1 of FAQ

Line of Sight , p.7 The fourth bullet point of this entry should read: “If line of sight or attack range is traced through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target.”• A hull zone is adjacent to another hull zone if those zones share a firing arc line.

Attack sequence

Declare Target : The attacker declares the defender and the attacking hull zone, if any. If the defender is a ship, the attacker declares the defending hull zone.

Thats a legal shot as shown

TO was thinking of squadron rules.....

TO was thinking of squadron rules.....

Sounds to me like the TO's ruling was based on the FAQ requirement:

From Pg 1 of FAQ

Line of Sight , p.7 The fourth bullet point of this entry should read: “If line of sight or attack range is traced through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target.”• A hull zone is adjacent to another hull zone if those zones share a firing arc line.

TO was thinking of squadron rules.....

Sounds to me like the TO's ruling was based on the FAQ requirement:

From Pg 1 of FAQ

Line of Sight , p.7 The fourth bullet point of this entry should read: “If line of sight or attack range is traced through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target.”• A hull zone is adjacent to another hull zone if those zones share a firing arc line.

The ruling pertinant to the game was that LOS was not valid, so that's the important part for the game that was played. As shown up there though, does that FAQ requirement apply to the vic shooting at the front or right side of the neb?

My question is basically is that front corner both front hull zone and side hull zone at the same time? As shown up there am I disallowed from shooting at one of the two arcs?

Firing arcs definitely include the full width of the lines.

Hull zones are delineated by the lines, it doesn't necessarily include them, at least in their entirety. Their might be a geometrical difference, slight, between the two.

We attack hull zones, not firing arcs.

Can there be a point that belongs to 2 hull zones?

Note : Copying this summary to original post for clarity

Plastic is not part of the hull zone....

Source. Your quotes

Oh and the Arc line itself is not part of any arc.

Geometrically speaking, in the example given above... Then it is a legal shot. The closest point will always be exactly, adamantly, on the border line... Only the "Black Cardboard" counts, and never the plastic.

The situation is certainly murkier if one or more of the following situations change:

* The Nebulon B and Victory are more aligned, rather than offset.

* The Victory has a slight left tilt to its facing, rather than straight on.

* The Nebulon Be has a slight right tilr to its facing, rather than straight on.

Hull zones are delineated by the arc firing line. They additonally share the arc firing line, ergo, the arc firing line must be included in your hull zone assessment. Because you are hitting the correct hull zone, that must count.

If it were intended that Arc Firing Lines were discounted, then they would be discounted - because they are not infinitely small, it offers a distinct 'null zone' of targeting if you line things up... If that were intended, it would be added to the rules - especially by now, with all of the LOS issues we had in the past

One of the earlier FAQs changed the targeting method to eliminate a situation where an attacking ship could effectively attack backwards though an enemy hull zone as long as the attacking hull zone LOS dot and defending LOS dot were seeing each other.

So now there is an odd situation that comes up in certain spatial alignments. The easiest way to replicate it is a CR90 or Nebulon attacking a VSD or ISD, with the closest part of the attacking front arc being in the target's side arc but the dot-to-dot check being a clear line. Which one is correct?

The official answer: we honestly don't know. And I don't believe anyone has received an email response.

That said, in the interest of a fun game and logical response, my groups have come to a conclusion that is acceptable in nearly all situations:

After checking LOS, if a line can be drawn from the attacking hull to the target hull without crossing target hull zones and while staying in the firing arc, the shot is legal.

In your picture, the nearest hull zones are the VSD front hull zone and the Nebulon front hull zone. However, you are targeting the side hull zone. When you check the LOS dots, you have clear line of sight and the target hull zone is entirely within the front arc of the attacking ship. Our solution is that you measure the closest point of the defending hull to the closest point that could legally attack that hull on the attacking ship. This is the line that is used for LOS and checking for obstruction.

with the closest part of the attacking front arc being in the target's side arc

You realise which part is closer is completely irrelevant.

Check that target hull zone is within arc.

Check that target hull zone is within range.

Check that LOS doesnt cross other defending hull zones (aka the actual cardboard not mythical areas of space)

Fire at will.

with the closest part of the attacking front arc being in the target's side arc

You realise which part is closer is completely irrelevant.

Check that target hull zone is within arc.

Check that target hull zone is within range.

Check that LOS doesnt cross other defending hull zones (aka the actual cardboard not mythical areas of space)

Check that range measurement doesn't cross other defending hull zones.

Fire at will.

Ftfy. With the piece that the question revolves around. The answer to which I frankly do not know.

with the closest part of the attacking front arc being in the target's side arc

You realise which part is closer is completely irrelevant.

Check that target hull zone is within arc.

Check that target hull zone is within range.

Check that LOS doesnt cross other defending hull zones (aka the actual cardboard not mythical areas of space)

Check that range measurement doesn't cross other defending hull zones.

Fire at will.

Ftfy. With the piece that the question revolves around. The answer to which I frankly do not know.

OK I see your point.

However, I dont see any rules that say you have to measure range from closest point to closest point.

with the closest part of the attacking front arc being in the target's side arc

You realise which part is closer is completely irrelevant.

Check that target hull zone is within arc.

Check that target hull zone is within range.

Check that LOS doesnt cross other defending hull zones (aka the actual cardboard not mythical areas of space) Check that range measurement doesn't cross other defending hull zones.

Fire at will.

Ftfy. With the piece that the question revolves around. The answer to which I frankly do not know.

OK I see your point.

However, I dont see any rules that say you have to measure range from closest point to closest point.

RRG 7 - Measuring Firing Arc And Range

To measure attack range from a ship, measure from the

closest point of the attacking hull zone. To measure

attack range to a ship, measure to the closest point of the

defending hull zone.

Then what is the point of LOS?

Cheers anyway.

Sitting in class so I can't go fishing for it, but I know there's a graphic floating around in the rules forum that illustrates the impact of that FAQ. I think maybe Lyraeus posted it, a few months back? It's a weird confusing edge case and I don't like the errata.

Sitting in class so I can't go fishing for it, but I know there's a graphic floating around in the rules forum that illustrates the impact of that FAQ. I think maybe Lyraeus posted it, a few months back? It's a weird confusing edge case and I don't like the errata.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/151598-rules-answers-arc-line-of-sight-diagrams/?hl=attack

Geometrically speaking, in the example given above... Then it is a legal shot. The closest point will always be exactly, adamantly, on the border line... Only the "Black Cardboard" counts, and never the plastic.

The situation is certainly murkier if one or more of the following situations change:

* The Nebulon B and Victory are more aligned, rather than offset.

* The Victory has a slight left tilt to its facing, rather than straight on.

* The Nebulon Be has a slight right tilr to its facing, rather than straight on.

Hull zones are delineated by the arc firing line. They additonally share the arc firing line, ergo, the arc firing line must be included in your hull zone assessment. Because you are hitting the correct hull zone, that must count.

If it were intended that Arc Firing Lines were discounted, then they would be discounted - because they are not infinitely small, it offers a distinct 'null zone' of targeting if you line things up... If that were intended, it would be added to the rules - especially by now, with all of the LOS issues we had in the past

Remember how I went on about Arc Lines and that crossing them meant that you were crossing a hull zone. . .

Hello, Lyraeus.

In response to your question:

Firing arc lines are not part of a hull zone, as defined in the Rules Reference. Both the Hull Zones section on p.6 and Measuring Firing Arc and Range section on p.7 refer to a hull zone as the area on a ship token delineated by, and between, the firing arc lines.

So where does that answer leave us?

It means the lines only work as seperate hull zones while on the base,

Lyraeus's post answered my question. Thanks!

In the original situation I believe there was some confusion about the firing arc line belonging to both hull zones, which restricted available shots in some capacity. If the area occupied by the firing arc lines doesn't belong to a hull zone, then 2 adjacent hull zones have no points of overlap.

Very often we equate hull zones and firing arcs, because both are marked by the same set of lines. The rules however do not use those 2 terms interchangably, hull zones is used for defending, and firing arcs for attacking. I often talk about attacking arcs on another ship, rather than its zones.

The lines are included for firing arcs, and excluded for hull zones. (At least that's my reading of Michael's answer)

In terms of attacking, even if there is that tiny sliver of no-hull-zone, there should be 2 points of valid hull zones just microns away.

It neatly ties up any confusion that was relevant for my initial question, and in the process I dug deeper into some aspects of the rules.

Thanks everyone!