Hello!

So, I haven't been able to find this small thing in the book:

Move, with the correct Control upgrade, can be used as a ranged weapon.

So you roll your ranged attack as normal, add the Force dice and off you go.

Damage is per object silhouette.

5 for SL 0, and from 1 up, it's times 10. Cool.

But, what about extra successes?

Say, I have 3 Stormtroopers and I wanna hit them with 3 boxes.

As per the power rules, I can use the auto-fire weapon quality to do this.

So I add a purple die for auto-fire, and then I need two ADVs to activate the auto-fire.

I roll 2 extra successes and 4 advantages.

2 ADV per extra shot plus my first shot = 3 boxes are flying.

They each have SL 1 so, here's the question:

Do they do 10 damage, or 12 because of the 2 extra successes?

It's resolved as a normal ranged attack, so extra successes are extra damage.

Keep in mind though, to move three Sil 1 boxes is gonna require 1Strength upgrade, 2 Magnitude upgrades, not mention the path to Control, AND how many Force pips? 5? So you need at least FR 3 to have any hope of using this ...

Also, and more importantly perhaps, using the Force as a direct weapon - specifically inflicting the fear and dismay with it - is going to generate Conflict.

Yeah I've taken the upgrades into account. I just didn't mention them. But thank you for being so thorough.

And yes, conflict. hehe.

In order to use Move to deal damage with a picked up object, you need the Control Upgrade to hurl objects.

For the scenario presented, you'd need at least the following:

- Move Basic Powre

- Range Upgrade (needed to access the next part)

- Control Upgrade to hurl objects

- 1 Strength Upgrade so you can affect Silhouette 1 objects

- at least 1 Magnitude Upgrade so you can affect multiple objects

As for Force points required, you'd need at least 3 (1 for basic power, 1 for Strength Upgrade, 1 for Magnitude Upgrade), however this assumes you've bought 2 Magnitude Upgrades, since the upgrades cite that every Force point spent activates all purchased upgrades of that type. If the PC's only bought a single Magnitude Upgrade, then they'd need to spend an additional Force point to affect all three targets. So you need FR of at least 2 to even have a shot of pulling such a stunt off.

Also, in regards to hurling multiple objects at one target, the rules do cite to treat it as an autofire attack, which means increasing the difficulty and that the PC needs to spend 2 advantage for each additional hit they want to inflict on the target. If it's a case of simply throwing 3 separate troopers into a wall, I'd probably still stick with making it an autofire attack. However, if the three troopers were part of a minion group, then I personally would dispense with the Magnitude Upgrade (since a minion group is treated as a single target) and probably treat them as a Silhouette 2 object in terms of Strength Upgrades needed and damage inflicted to the group.

The beautiful part of the auto-fire thing for me is that you can pick between hurling everything at one guy, or one thing at each guy. This is key.

Honestly if they are Stormtroopers then they are minions and only a single target anyway so your better throwing one large object at them, but your right Autofire Move is cool

However, if the three troopers were part of a minion group, then I personally would dispense with the Magnitude Upgrade (since a minion group is treated as a single target) and probably treat them as a Silhouette 2 object in terms of Strength Upgrades needed and damage inflicted to the group.

This is how we handle it too. We have a PC who pretty much does this every single round of every single combat.

However, if the three troopers were part of a minion group, then I personally would dispense with the Magnitude Upgrade (since a minion group is treated as a single target) and probably treat them as a Silhouette 2 object in terms of Strength Upgrades needed and damage inflicted to the group.

This is how we handle it too. We have a PC who pretty much does this every single round of every single combat.

I've found such an approach to probably be the simplest method of replicating a Force slam like we saw in TPM, and being able to take out at least a couple minions in one go.

I personally made Force Slam a weapon that's acquired when you get that upgrade: 2 FP to use, difficulty based on range and with one upgrade, Damage 10, a critical rating of 5, and the Blast 8, Disorient 2, and Knockdown qualities. Range starts at short and is increased based on the number of range upgrades activated.

Lets players throw people with the Force when there aren't massive objects around, and it gives already defined rules to the ability so there are fewer arguments.

Also, and more importantly perhaps, using the Force as a direct weapon - specifically inflicting the fear and dismay with it - is going to generate Conflict.

Not automatically, no. That is something WEG and Wizards did.

It's situational now, which is much better. Why should it be better to slice people in twain with a plasma blade, anyway? Everything that would give you conflict does so regardless of the tool you use.

Edit: Some Force Powers DO give you conflict, but it says so in the description. Move is not one of them.

Why should it be better to slice people in twain with a plasma blade, anyway? Everything that would give you conflict does so regardless of the tool you use.

We don't use Morality anyway, but it's always struck me as bizarre that killing people with the Force should give you Bad Guy Points, but killing them with a Heavy Repeating Blaster doesn't...

Mostly it's how you use the tool not the tool itself that's worthy of conflict. There are exceptions such as Heal/Harm resurrection.

Then there are the conflict Talents for which the knowledge is conflict worthy but they can be used in ways that don't give you conflict... It's not easy, but possible.

For move relocating NPC's to a "safe" location is fine. Knocking them out when they are threatening you is fine. Dropping them 200+ feet to a screaming terrifying death is certainly bad

Was the death avoidable?

Was it painful?

Was it drawn out and torturous?

Also, and more importantly perhaps, using the Force as a direct weapon - specifically inflicting the fear and dismay with it - is going to generate Conflict.

Not automatically, no. That is something WEG and Wizards did.

It's situational now, which is much better. Why should it be better to slice people in twain with a plasma blade, anyway? Everything that would give you conflict does so regardless of the tool you use.

Edit: Some Force Powers DO give you conflict, but it says so in the description. Move is not one of them.

Fairly certain it's also something canon "does". Now I've by no means seen all canon examples but... yea, they don't do it, to my knowledge. You NEVER see a Jedi kill people directly using the Force. Especially slamming then about with Move.

Knock em over? Sure. Toss them up into the air? Over a cliff? Smash them with scenery? Not that I'm aware of.

Typically when you smash someone with a giant object there is no fear or pain or anything at all since they die before they even have time to realize it.

What your suggesting by claiming the force inflicts fear or etc... That just means they have to make sure they never see it coming.

Now if they are angry when they do it sure.

Or are afraid or they do it as the first thing instead of trying to reasonably solve problems without murdering people by tossing a starship at them.

Slamming a group of storm troopers into the ceiling to knock them out is not going to generate conflict.

Jedi are allowed to defend themselves.

The reason Harm and Unleash generate conflict is the power itself is super darkside bad mojo that only works by calling on the worst parts of a person to channel the force.

I would challenge that Unleash can only work by calling on the worst parts of yourself, but that's a story for another time.

You're correct in that that's the reason why Harm and Unleash give automatic conflict, because you are directly using the Force into causing harm to a person, with no intermediary. The Force, as Yoda tells us: "Life creates it, helps it grow!" it's created from life, and so using the essence of life so directly to kill is, in many ways, an abomination.

But using that same energy to generate enough momentum in an object to squash someone? That's only one step removed from using the Force to harm someone directly. So it's not at all unreasonable to say that murder with telekinetically flung objects is worth more conflict than regular ol' murder. You're still causing death by means of the essence of life.

Now, should it be a huge amount more? Probably not, and as long as you're not being malicious with it and causing undue pain and suffering, then it's probably barely more conflict than just your normal actions would give you. But I think it's important to note that it shouldn't be nothing.

Umm using a lightsaber to hack people to bits is also using the force directly.

I'm not sure you understand how the force is used.

You also seem to fail to grasp the concept of self defense not being murder.

When lots of guys in white armor start blasting away at you if you want to toss a giant rock at them to get them to stop its not conflicty at all.

But destroying a significant monument to use as ammunition is conflict worthy. Or someone's car. Or doing it as a surprise attack. But I do agree that defending yourself is not Murder. I think though that GM's should try hard to offer:

Easy way - lots of conflict; Murder or unprovoked attack

Hard way - a little conflict; destruction of something to stop an aggressive enemy

Hardest way - no conflict; sneaking around, using charm/mind trick,

Edit: curse of the double post.

People need to realize that there are no Dark Side Points in this system.

There is, however, conflict. If you feel absolutely justified in killing someone (situational!) then there may or may not be conflict, depending how bad you feel about ending a life.

If you feel terrible about using the Force in Anger because you were told not to do so, there is probably a conflict somewhere.

If you've been told having a secret girlfriend is bad and you still bump uglies with her, you may be in conflict as a result of your belief system and your desires being in, you guessed it, conflict.

What I'm trying to say is that while the RAW clearly don't automatically give you conflict when you use the force to play pinball with someone, you may still be in conflict for other reasons - for not liking killing in general, for being told killing is bad and feeling like you broke a rule, or for no longer believing in a rule that tells you that you shouldn't do that even when you are unarmed and they try to kill your friends.

You can be at peace after dealing with conflict ("I did what I thought was right"), or you can develop issues. Cognitive dissonance leads to the Dark Side, heh.