Wulff is a hard counter to this. You get the nav token turn one

... and lose it to a tractor beam turn 3. Thats why tractor beam was mentioned together with slicers.

The only issue I have it that the DemoMSU fleet has Demolisher usually going to end it's turn by moving last and arriving near your ship (and firing). So Tractors don't stop it getting in position. Then it activates first and isn't worried about slicer tools or tractor beams. If you cannot activate after the Demolisher moves on turn 2 or before it moves on turn 3, that combo does nothing.

Against a reasonable number of ships that just have Demolisher with them (3-4), this might work.

You make a good point with Dem going last, but i think here a player needs to have their slicer tools/ tractor beam flotilla hunting Dem from the first turn. This will mean from the get-go Dem is struggling to reach its ideal position, and with its engine techs shenanigans curtailed it'll cop a lot of red dice as it struggles across the board.

Im almost (but not quite) as excited for flotillas as i am the Liberty. Having a ship with not (directly) lethal abilities being a real pain in the arse is gonna be fun.

So there are ways to trap Demolisher so that while it will kill a ship it will then be hit but tractor beams and slicer tools. Doing this will lose you a ship most likely but as long as you are not losing a great ship it is a worthwhile trap.

Just been play-testing with the GR75 slicer/tractor beam combo vs Demo. Adding Walex Blissex for extra scatters proves exceptionally handy for when you get close in.

I'm personally a huge fan of squadron lists, and when I found the article about this list I got super excited: http://www.3plusplus.net/2016/06/starwars-armada-rogue-madness/

Basically, run a ton of YT-2400 pseudo-bombers to hunt the Demo down. Rogue, speed 4, and black dice will whittlebit nicely.

@Steve68 :

What kind of upgrades do you find the Demolisher using ? Engine Tech and ACM ?

There's a couple of strategies to troll the Demolisher hard ! The Demo is a beast of a close combat ship but its main strength is the ability to be a massive bully to smaller ships due to hitting after moving, giving him a super reach. Obviously he works against larger ships, but AFMK2s can tank one volley of the Demolisher with their shields if you managed to mitigate the damage taken from other sources (or spam engineering commands).

When defending with larger ships, one fun strategy is the B-Wing spider web, with Yavaris nearby. A double tap from the B-Wings will completely munch the Demo, especially if you field Keyan Farlander.

Another fun strategy, this time with small and faster ships, is to hold a fast ship in "reserve" on a wide flank for a late game flank maneuver. If it's the Demolisher's intended target, it will have trouble moving forward in order to stay back and catch it. If you picture something like the Salvation with XI7 or TRCs, you can place it at speed 3 on a flank and use Nav Tokens for the first turns until you have a proper angle to finish off weaker ships.

The Demolisher is extremely weak to large attack pools, especially if you can fish for accuracies. Picture something like an Ackbar MC80 Assault with Home One and gunline MK2s with TRCs. If you manage to block the Brace and ensure a double hit, you're absolutely likely to finish the Demo in 2 shots.

The Neb Bs are actually a fun troll against the Demo, if you manage to keep your front arc on him, or if you can have your side arc if you're at full shields. Neb Bs don't care too much about ACM due to no redirects and the double brace means that you will halve the Demo's firepower without too much trouble. You might find yourself with 3 shield zones depleted, but you're likely to double arc it in return, and with the support of squadrons or a third shot from a ship will kill it relatively securely.

A final strategy is to force him outwards with an annoying bait ship. Something he will have to deal with and has no other units nearby. Rebels are better at wider deployment due to a longer optimal range on speedy ships meaning that you can have them support each other more easily. Due to a wide flank possible on Rebel ships, he will either have to let it go or divert the Demolisher to intercept, meaning that either your sip can run freely or will draw the fire of an expensive ship that will take several turns to get bcak in the action.

Wait. . . I missed that.

There is a community concensus that Demolisher is broken? When did that happen?

I mean, sure it is an evil title but I don't think it is broken. Most people I know use it as a quick thrust and then lose it because it gets overwhelmed. Well that and I understand the counters.

That is what this game is about. Knowing what counters there are out there. Knowing how to deal with X or Y. Once you learn these things you can better deal with new and interesting situations.

Edit: Sorry about the length--don't mean to be ranty, just got kind of carried away with detail.

@Steve68 :

What kind of upgrades do you find the Demolisher using ? Engine Tech and ACM ?

I know you've been away for a while, so you've probably missed what a lot of us are using as a reference point when Demolisher comes up. Broadly, this build:

Clonisher (372/400)

==================

Gladiator-class Star Destroyer: Gladiator I-class Star Destroyer (56 + 42)

+ Intel Officer (7)

+ Ordnance Experts (4)

+ Engine Techs (8)

+ Expanded Launchers (13)

+ Demolisher (10)

Imperial Raider: Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 35)

+ Admiral Screed (26)

+ Ordnance Experts (4)

+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)

Imperial Raider: Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 13)

+ Ordnance Experts (4)

+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)

+ Instigator (4)

Imperial Raider: Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 17)

+ Ordnance Experts (4)

+ Expanded Launchers (13)

Imperial Raider: Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 17)

+ Ordnance Experts (4)

+ Expanded Launchers (13)

Squadrons: Tie Fighter Squadron (8)

Squadrons: Tie Fighter Squadron (8)

There are lots of good variations on this theme out there, but the important points are the ridiculous bid for first, the all-in build on Demolisher including ExL and IO, five activations, Instigator + a few token TIEs to screen bombers, and Screed. This means that Demo is basically always going last and then first, from beyond long range, with a very heavy fighter screen that can't be negated with Intel. Which means we're not talking about weathering one shot from it, but three, and you're only using that brace for one of those.

So, to run through your suggested tactics:

AFMK2s can tank one volley of the Demolisher with their shields if you managed to mitigate the damage taken from other sources (or spam engineering commands).

Think an MC80 can weather that better? Recalculate all that, but with two more shields. That puts you at 1 (face up) hull damage after the second shot, meaning he needs five (so, average) damage on an OE side arc to guarantee that the double ram will kill you.

When defending with larger ships, one fun strategy is the B-Wing spider web, with Yavaris nearby. A double tap from the B-Wings will completely munch the Demo, especially if you field Keyan Farlander.

Another fun strategy, this time with small and faster ships, is to hold a fast ship in "reserve" on a wide flank for a late game flank maneuver. If it's the Demolisher's intended target, it will have trouble moving forward in order to stay back and catch it. If you picture something like the Salvation with XI7 or TRCs, you can place it at speed 3 on a flank and use Nav Tokens for the first turns until you have a proper angle to finish off weaker ships.

The Demolisher is extremely weak to large attack pools, especially if you can fish for accuracies. Picture something like an Ackbar MC80 Assault with Home One and gunline MK2s with TRCs. If you manage to block the Brace and ensure a double hit, you're absolutely likely to finish the Demo in 2 shots.

Again: a sequence of three attacks, two covered by an IO, beginning beyond long range and ending at long range on the other side. You're extraordinarily unlikely to be able to get that shot before trading something very expensive and/or important to you.

The Neb Bs are actually a fun troll against the Demo, if you manage to keep your front arc on him, or if you can have your side arc if you're at full shields. Neb Bs don't care too much about ACM due to no redirects and the double brace means that you will halve the Demo's firepower without too much trouble. You might find yourself with 3 shield zones depleted, but you're likely to double arc it in return, and with the support of squadrons or a third shot from a ship will kill it relatively securely.

A final strategy is to force him outwards with an annoying bait ship. Something he will have to deal with and has no other units nearby. Rebels are better at wider deployment due to a longer optimal range on speedy ships meaning that you can have them support each other more easily. Due to a wide flank possible on Rebel ships, he will either have to let it go or divert the Demolisher to intercept, meaning that either your sip can run freely or will draw the fire of an expensive ship that will take several turns to get back in the action.

Now, again, not saying the ship or build can't be beaten, even consistently. It's just not nearly as straightforward as "lol shoot it harder," which is about the level of subtlety it requires to use. This huge dichotomy between how easy it is to use and how difficult it is to counter is the biggest problem imo.

They could just tweak the initiative rules and I'm pretty sure most of the Demolisher complaints go away.

Disclaimer: I'm not really advocating changing the rules! Just sharing thoughts.

But my reasoning for that assertion is that Demolisher doesn't really become a monster until you get the triple tap. Yes it will kill a small ship, but it just seems a little off that the Demolisher can punch above it's weight class so much and knock out an a full health ISD. You can change that by simply changing the initiative rules a bit. Most games like 40k, WFB, infinity, and other tabletop games recognize that getting first turn can be an incredibly huge advantage. I can't really think of another game where you can really guarantee first activation like you can in Star Wars Armada (X-Wing has initiative but that is diluted by PS). Most games rely on random rolls, or in the case of Infinity, actively handicapping the first player and playing solely to objectives (you can actually wipe your opponent in Infinity and still lose). Right now I think that the objectives in this game are good, but don't quite stack up to having first player. Stack Demolisher on top of that, and that's how you get to the heart of the complaint even from veteran's of the game. At least in IMHO.

Instead of messing with the core 1st player, 2nd player rules, my simple fix for Demolisher is to tie the ability to be the second player. That means if you take Demolisher, you can still bid for second player but you lose the triple tap. Can still play for the double tap with activation counts.

2nd Disclaimer: I honestly don't feel really strongly either way on the Demolisher issue. If what I just said made you frothing mad, assume your right and instead of getting pulled into a long drawn out argument when I really don;t have a horse in the race, I'll reply with "I like waffles."

@Ardaedhel : You make fair points, but you're assuming that the Demolisher will always be in a positiion where he can't get shot, then can unload his full barrage with no problem.

The point you make about Clon's list is also specifically linked to the list itself. The role and performance of a ship depends obviously on each list it is built in, so it's probably going to change even in a 4 activation list vs a 5 activation list. The real threat of the DRRRR build is that it has 5 activations and the ability to choose whether it goes first or second.

But Demolisher itself and the means to deal with it hasn't really changed as much since Wave 1. Yes he does more damage, but avoiding the triple tap is what matters against Demo. Against Clon's list, because it's not too dissimilar from Wave 1 VGGG GenCon list in its principle, I remember that actually sprinting forward and past these fast ships was an efficient strategy. Can't remember the details exactly, and I might have had the initiative back then, but I remembered it was more about dodging than tanking.

I do agree that the Demo is quite easy to use though, because being able to shoot after proper positioning for a short range ship is quite priceless.

To be honest though, I think that the issue lies more with how much activations and initiative matter in the grand scheme of the strategy of the game :

- More activations means more ability to dictate the terms of the battle

- Going first gives the ability to zap a ship before it's activated, giving you further activation advantage

- Like Deuces mentionned above, having the initiative is super powerful compared to the rest. Most importantly at the deployment stage, because you can still counter deploy as the first player, and that is super good.

- Finally, more activations means more chances to do multiple attacks per turn on a ship, messing with his defense tokens.

- It also ensures the early squadron activation.

It's not really a complaint though, I don't really care too much about twekaing the rules. Moreover, in a strategy game, players are always going to go search for first order optimal strategies to take advantage of the rules, it's to be expected because strategy is the search for an unfair advantage.

But it's true that larger ships are at a huge disadvantage considering if only because they reduce the possible number of activations. It's still a young game though and I'm sure new strategies will pop out over time.

Moffzen, Bear in mind a speed 3 ship with Engine techs can close to black range from outside red range.

I agree that sprinting past works quite well, but again engine techs helps a gladiator turn very tightly.

Moffzen, Bear in mind a speed 3 ship with Engine techs can close to black range from outside red range.

I agree that sprinting past works quite well, but again engine techs helps a gladiator turn very tightly.

Oh yeah, I'm well aware of that Been a while since I played a Demo, but back then it really wasn't that bad.

A final strategy against Demo is to choose a sacrificial ship, like a small Corvette to act as a roadblock. That way the triple tap activation will take 2 taps to kill the lamb and one tap on the initial target ship.

If you can't avoid it, then try to take advantage of it, I'd rather trade a CR90B with the Demo than a couple of ships.

It is interesting that every person on here and seems in the community say it's broken.

Surely we can get together and write to ask FFG if they will please change this?

I know I am late to this party but my buddy and I play all the time he rams that demolisher down my throat a lot but once you understand its limits on movement you can pretty consistently predict where it is going to be. I consistently beat him and I use rebels all the time. It took time but now when I see demolishers in tournaments I have a leg up because I can usually predict where they are going to be and counter them. Mc-30s with APs Lando, and Foresight is an incredible blocker against Demos with or without Rieekan.

I can tell from a very reliable source that FFG will not remove the Demolisher and at the most they will very slightly tweak if at all.

In the end its awesome but its not broken.

As a high activation demo (and four raiders) list player the things I hate are as follows:

1) lots of deployments, if you have low deployments you've given me a great advantage that makes demo sing.

2) high numbers of activations, three or below is a treat, if you have four I'm working harder, five and I'm using my bid to take second player.

3) a fireball or YT list,getting those hits in during fighter activation as I manouver in works well ( I don't want to loss demo to a load of fighters in round 3).

4) admonition, with lando and AP, if you have plenty of deployments you can use this as the demo blocker knowing that demo can't kill it with a trip tap and if demo can,t get away clean it's going to hurt.

5) the Reeker

6) fast TLRC ships

Needless to say my worse nightmare would be Admonition and 4 four TLRC CR90s backed up by YTs. Not saying it's a good fleet but it would be a stone cold ***** against my fleet.

I have used this list very effectively against Demolisher. So effectively that it doesn't scare me anymore.

Be sure to have the initiative. Use the two MC30s to cover the AF carrier. Rush their fighter cover. Go slow and lure Demolisher towards Admonition. Spam Nav commands on Admonition. Let him shoot at you with his rush shot. Use Lando if needed and burn used tokens but Admonition will survive - title + Lando + Mothma will almost ensure it. Then Activate Admonition and shoot back. Move speed 1 around him to set up next shot for a nice double arc. Next turn activate Admonition first and the Bogey is dead. Demolisher is really squishy when you put some pressure on it.

Faction: Rebel Alliance

Points: 392/400

Commander: Mon Mothma

Assault Objective: Most Wanted

Defense Objective: Contested Outpost

Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] Assault Frigate Mark II B (72 points)

- Mon Mothma ( 30 points)

- Raymus Antilles ( 7 points)

- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)

= 126 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)

- Admonition ( 8 points)

- Lando Callriassian ( 4 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)

= 84 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)

- Foresight ( 8 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)

= 80 total ship cost

4 A-Wing Squadrons ( 44 points)

1 Han Solo ( 26 points)

2 YT-2400s ( 32 points)

It's very interesting, how this whole demo is broken keeps cropping up, just because you need to think about how you are going to counter it and modify your build a bit does not make it broken. We do this with most high impact components in the game, who does not have a plan for ryhmer balls, ackbars etc.

I know there's the "if you take a glad you always take demo" because it's an auto include ( so must be broken) argument. But that's true of a lot of ship titles ( a lot are very very good, that why you get one), who does not take one of the titles with an MC30, Neb without title anyone ? what about one of those stupid cheap CR90 titles ?

Then you get the "but most of theses other titles don't impact on the game as much" argument , anyone ever been last firsted by a yavaris ? Especially if a choice ace was taloned in first, Fancy it do you.......count the dice......Ever watched a massive arc bounce of an MC30 as ot sets up to trash you ?

The reason we don't see this type of yavaris build is that you have to sculpt the list around it and if you mess up your buggered. But this is the same with DMSU, you have to invest large amounts of points in glass ships to run DMSU it has the same get if right its ok, mess up and have no hope issue. Being toilet bowled with your demo chasing is a nightmare.

Yes DMSUs are good if you play them right against a list that's weak against it but make a mistake or play against a number of hard lists and it's not fun.

Outside of DMSU, Demo in a normal list is just another tool, no more or less useful that Ryhmer or Yavars.

The reason we don't see this type of yavaris build is that you have to sculpt the list around it and if you mess up your buggered.

Nah, its because we didnt have flight commander or fighter control teams.

But now we do.

......

The reason we don't see this type of yavaris build is that you have to sculpt the list around it and if you mess up your buggered.

Nah, its because we didnt have flight commander or fighter control teams.

But now we do.

......

I know,I can't what for my four Neb rebel bomber list to get even better........

I know there's the "if you take a glad you always take demo" because it's an auto include ( so must be broken) argument. But that's true of a lot of ship titles ( a lot are very very good, that why you get one), who does not take one of the titles with an MC30, Neb without title anyone ? what about one of those stupid cheap CR90 titles ?

Then you get the "but most of theses other titles don't impact on the game as much" argument , anyone ever been last firsted by a yavaris ? Especially if a choice ace was taloned in first, Fancy it do you.......count the dice......Ever watched a massive arc bounce of an MC30 as ot sets up to trash you ?

The reason we don't see this type of yavaris build is that you have to sculpt the list around it and if you mess up your buggered. But this is the same with DMSU, you have to invest large amounts of points in glass ships to run DMSU it has the same get if right its ok, mess up and have no hope issue. Being toilet bowled with your demo chasing is a nightmare.

I have to disagree. First, titles should be slightly better than a regular upgrade or provide a unique ability to encourage their use.

As for taking titles: I have seen every title in the game played against or by me since wave 2 dropped except for Insidious and Paragon. Paragon is terrible and Insidious is outshined absolutely by Demolisher.

GSD is the only ship that you automatically take just the one title. Yavaris is close, but not quite there and I do see naked Nebulons.

Also, Gilmore's list looks good at stopping a Demolisher as long as it is not DemoMSU. Against DemoMSU, it should have a bad time.

Paragon isn't terrible, it just has a really, really tough learning curve...

... Basically, you've got to be really good at setting up Double arcs... WITHOUT utilising Nav Dials... because you want to pair it with a Concentrate Fire for a Long Range Double-Black for that attack....

Of course, it went out because a lot of people defaulted to Ackbar for Assault Frigates, and then it has absolutely no synergy whatsoever...

But its very strong when you have the practice and opportunity

I never had a problem with my Rebels vs. Demolisher. I honestly don't know this Demolisher trend took off after clone started using it, it's not like it was bad before then. The only real problem I have currently is that Demolisher as a title over-preforms for the price, but the same could be said about Rhymer being a force multiplier a little too good.

As mentioned previously in here, and in the countless threads present on the forum, there's quite a few things that messes with the Demolisher, especially one that runs a Raider-heavy, activation heavy list that tries and outbid you at 387. The last store tournament I was in I fought two of these, both running netlists trying the same thing. I changed my list up a bit for the meta, ran essentially the same build I've been running for ages, which is my AckbarBB/AKIIB/TRC90 list.

You can find the list here:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2016/03/bfg-armada-mp-beta-starts-thursday.html

With this "recent" metashift to Demolishers and higher activations, I ran a modified version of this list:

-YTs for Tycho + 3x A-Wings

383 bid with Tractor Beams on the MC80 and Jaina's Light on the TRC90

and then proceeded to 10-0 both Demolisher games and 9-1'd my last game vs. Rebels.

So the formula to defeating the "clonisher" build is simple. Ignore all the crap about drops advantage because that's not what matters. The strategy you have going into the game is the most important: Which is to understand the fact that the Demolisher is his most dangerous and most potent threat, so killing it pretty much wins you the game instantly.

The formula, in order of importance:
> Outbid it (383, and this is with what I consider luxury upgrades)

> Slow it down (added Tractor Beams)

> Do similar damage in your list so you can actually possibly one-round the Demolisher (AckbarBB does this job really well).

Trust me, Rebels have the tools to deal with it, you just need to come prepared.

Insidious will make a comeback big time with the new objectives.

Salvation and Insidious have massive points in their favour. They absolutely annihilate on Hyperspace Assault. So if you can build a list around a red and a blue objective with either of these two thrown in, then you are laughing. So far I've found this almost impossible to do for Insidious, but soon, so soon my precious.

Paragon isn't terrible, it just has a really, really tough learning curve...

... Basically, you've got to be really good at setting up Double arcs... WITHOUT utilising Nav Dials... because you want to pair it with a Concentrate Fire for a Long Range Double-Black for that attack....

Of course, it went out because a lot of people defaulted to Ackbar for Assault Frigates, and then it has absolutely no synergy whatsoever...

But its very strong when you have the practice and opportunity

I disagree with your overall assessment. Paragon suffers from a combination of being very challenging to trigger, and providing only a lackluster benefit when you do so successfully. Optimally, you want it going off at long range, which means double arcing at long range, which is pretty **** hard with the AF2. Then, once you've mastered that, you get... +1 average damage. On one of your two shots. The second one.

Compare that to, say, the much better-considered Defiance, which is not only easier to trigger but also triggers on both shots.

I'm fine with upgrades that are hard to use, provided they give significant advantages for successful execution. I'm an MC30T player, I'm all about high-risk/high-reward. What I don't like is high-risk/mediocre-reward, and that's what Paragon is.

Man, who thought maneuvering an AFMK-II at long range would be considered "high risk"

Paragon isn't terrible, it just has a really, really tough learning curve...

... Basically, you've got to be really good at setting up Double arcs... WITHOUT utilising Nav Dials... because you want to pair it with a Concentrate Fire for a Long Range Double-Black for that attack....

Of course, it went out because a lot of people defaulted to Ackbar for Assault Frigates, and then it has absolutely no synergy whatsoever...

But its very strong when you have the practice and opportunity

. . . Use Raymus and Tantive and you can always get that extra click. . . Not a terribly strong setup but interesting.

Insidious will make a comeback big time with the new objectives.

Salvation and Insidious have massive points in their favour. They absolutely annihilate on Hyperspace Assault. So if you can build a list around a red and a blue objective with either of these two thrown in, then you are laughing. So far I've found this almost impossible to do for Insidious, but soon, so soon my precious.

Insid is great for three points, give it APT, OE and engine techs, as well as hyperspace assault it's good for hunting down small ships, and running at hi speed strait passed ISDs.works particularly well with ozzel, wait for them to close then strait to speed 3+1 to the side or behind. Then down to 1+1 to whip strait around.

For missions, superior positions, precision strike and hyperspace assault seem to work.