However, Demolisher doesnt have and red or blue dice out of its side arcs...... so no accuracy.

Unless of course, its a Glad-II..... >.>

WITH SENSOR TEAMS

Amirite?

Yeah Boi

I might start running Demo to mess with everyone in wave III

I understand that there are ways of fight the demolisher but it has to be something very specific, which may not work with other fleets I think they need to be changed still.

How about the same flotilla, with slicers and tractor beams, along with expanded hangars & 3/4 bombers of choice? That could chase down Demo, muck about with its speed and deliver some hits. If your admiral is Dodonna and one of those bombers is Luke, you could land some very specific nasty crits on Demo and get little return fire.

The mere threat of this to Demo may also draw in their fighters, forcing your opponent to commit resources he wanted to use elsewhere.

Flotillas will curb Demolisher even if they don't do anything directly to it

All you got do is leave the flotillas in the places you DONT want the demo to go. They wont do ram damage (flotilla rules) but they'll limit its options via simply existing

And your opponent won't face trade his 70ish demo for a high 20 low 30 cheapest capital ship in the game

Just having the abity to check Demos almost unlimited freedom of movement should be a huge help

The slicer is great but it also has to be a distance 1-5 which means it's at risk. One good shot and that goes down.

I like five activation rebel lists, which tend to be demo resistant by nature. Looking at your ships try 2x cr90 As with TLRC, Yavaris, salvation and an assault frigate.

you can then get around 60 points of fighters.......

The other thing to note you are exchanging a 31 point ship (rebel) for the cheapest demolisher with engine tech at 74 points. The Flotilla will not kill demolisher but will set demolisher to be killed by other ships and take away his one big ability.

While Demolisher would have a bit of trouble countering this alone, why is there an expectation that your opponent wouldn't try and bag that 31 points with another ship or squadrons? Perhaps you just ram the flotilla? Slicer Tools to me is something that flys behind a big ship and prevents your opponent from escaping. Say a MC80 being shadowed by the GR75 or an ISD and Gozanti combination.

As far as ideas go, deploy your fleet so that on turn 2-4 they are flying head to head into each other or crossing past each other, that way you have a bit more overlapping fire than you would if they get attacked from the side or rear.

Locally, the regulars are sort of abiding by a gentleman's agreement not to run Demolisher. Nothing concrete, just sort a refusal to use the easy button. The attitude locally is unanimous that Demolisher is broken or at least wildly undercosted. When most of us would pay 20+ points for the title, there is a problem.

We don't even care about insane number of activations or absurd (20+) bids. Somebody running 8 Raiders is fine and actually fun to play against. It also requires a high skill set to run. A player on the opposite end who is running 2 MC80s doesn't auto-lose to that swarm or to a TRC90 swarm.

As for countering...

Rieekan is popular, but is flat out admitting Demolisher will snipe a ship.

Ackbar gun lines can do it, but the maneuvering burden is on the Rebel fleet.

Dodonna has a hilarious but wildly inconsistent counter by slingshotting Luke Skywalker and going for a crit to hull. Then you search for most effective crit.

Imperials have nothing as Motti only kind of Helps ISDs from being triple tapped to auto-death. None of the others really help. Tagge seems like he may help to a small extent.

All the admirals still have the issue that you have to deal with the fact that the Demolisher will almost always trade up for it's maybe-suicidal run. 90% of the time, you lose your Admiral too.

Lando, Admonition, the new Interdictor upgrade can all help but are limited.

There were a few other counters listed:

Flotillas: This only works if you have a high number of deployments (DemoMSU-1 or better), high number of flotillas, are stacking navigate commands on the Demo-side flotilla, and your opponent both deploys and flies their Demolisher poorly. Their last deployment will be the Glad, so if all your Flotillas are deployed before it drops, they will deploy where it won't get blocked. They will also stack navigates to fly around your flotilla.

High deployment #s/high activation #s: This is general good advice for flexibility, but not a counter. DemoMSU is going to have basically the maximum # they can get of both. So the only way this becomes a counter is to out DemoMSU the DemoMSU.

"If you can't beat them, join them" indicates a broken/overpowered game mechanic.

EDIT: An adjustment to scoring would help as well. Stop using the total destroyed and start doing 400-surviving+tokens. This punishes the crazy bids a little bit.

Imperials have nothing as Motti only kind of Helps ISDs from being triple tapped to auto-death.

Not really true. A huge Rhymerball driven by cheap ships counters demolisher. 2ISD 5 activations list also counters it.

Imperials have nothing as Motti only kind of Helps ISDs from being triple tapped to auto-death.

Not really true. A huge Rhymerball driven by cheap ships counters demolisher. 2ISD 5 activations list also counters it.

I guess when I wrote that specific line, I was thinking about just the effects of the admirals. A slingshot Rhymer ball could do something and I was wrong not to include it

It is interesting that every person on here and seems in the community say it's broken.

Surely we can get together and write to ask FFG if they will please change this?

The other thing to note you are exchanging a 31 point ship (rebel) for the cheapest demolisher with engine tech at 74 points. The Flotilla will not kill demolisher but will set demolisher to be killed by other ships and take away his one big ability.

While Demolisher would have a bit of trouble countering this alone, why is there an expectation that your opponent wouldn't try and bag that 31 points with another ship or squadrons? Perhaps you just ram the flotilla? Slicer Tools to me is something that flys behind a big ship and prevents your opponent from escaping. Say a MC80 being shadowed by the GR75 or an ISD and Gozanti combination.

As far as ideas go, deploy your fleet so that on turn 2-4 they are flying head to head into each other or crossing past each other, that way you have a bit more overlapping fire than you would if they get attacked from the side or rear.

We have been playtesting on Vassal. People are underestimating how robust these little buggers are. Bright Hope can fly right at the enemy, and there isnt too much they can do about it. (Avoiding ISD front arcs and MC80 side arcs as per everything else mind)

It is interesting that every person on here and seems in the community say it's broken.

Surely we can get together and write to ask FFG if they will please change this?

Not everyone....

There is a fair consensus that removing engine techs from its upgrade would prevent it from being quite such a nuisance. This is why slicer tools and tractors are so important. If you know that you are going to be able to use a nav command, would you include engine techs? I wouldnt.

It is interesting that every person on here and seems in the community say it's broken.

Surely we can get together and write to ask FFG if they will please change this?

Not everyone....

There is a fair consensus that removing engine techs from its upgrade would prevent it from being quite such a nuisance. This is why slicer tools and tractors are so important. If you know that you are going to be able to use a nav command, would you include engine techs? I wouldnt.

Wulff is a hard counter to this. You get the nav token turn one and now Slicer tools can't stop you from triggering engine techs. Demolishers that I have played against are about 50/50 Intel Officer or Wulff.

As for FFG: they read these threads and listen to feedback. They are going to try to make cards that compensate for Demolisher. The trouble is that Demolisher needs a hard counter. Any halfway measures won't do. They really need to release a new Demolisher title. Make it available online to print for use in tourneys and then provide 30-40 copies with the next two seasonal store kits.

It is interesting that every person on here and seems in the community say it's broken.

Surely we can get together and write to ask FFG if they will please change this?

Again, you have to be careful about Echo chambers...

Because when you look at some of the previous threads, its been very heated in both directions....

There is no community consensus that it is broken. Because there's no way to contact and join with the whole community...

Wulff is a hard counter to this. You get the nav token turn one

... and lose it to a tractor beam turn 3. Thats why tractor beam was mentioned together with slicers.

It is interesting that every person on here and seems in the community say it's broken.

Surely we can get together and write to ask FFG if they will please change this?

Again, you have to be careful about Echo chambers...

Because when you look at some of the previous threads, its been very heated in both directions....

There is no community consensus that it is broken. Because there's no way to contact and join with the whole community...

Instead they're going to give a bunch of tools for dealing with it... to its own faction.

The Rebels Time will come...

To Truly Crush a Dream, you must first raise expectations...... Really high...

I mean... I'm an FFG Apologist, I guess?

I just never had a game where I felt like Demolisher was ready, able and willing to punch above its weight... I've seen it happen, yes. But to me, no. To my group as a whole, its been a non-starter... Demolisher is mostly used as a finishing punch, rather than an opening salvo - because as a salvo, it wasn't able to trade up efficiently enough....

Certainly our insular meta hasn't encouraged it. Right from the start, we've been exceptionally squadron-heavy, and that's always turned off the people who wanted to go ship heavy for the most part... Even those who did it with success elsewhere, didn't bring much success back home...

I mean... I'm an FFG Apologist, I guess?

You misunderstand me, sir. I'm not saying that the only people who disagree with me are fanboys--I'm saying that the only people in my local community who disagree with me are those who categorically refuse to accept that FFG might not be perfect in all respects.

A correlative relationship, but not necessarily causative or universal.

I wasn't sure, hence the question. Thank you for Clarifying

Besides, the amount of ranting and raving I do about rules, there's not much apology left there

There are many ways to counter Demolisher, so no I do not agree it is broken, no more than several other things that are as equally powerful in their own way.

I mean did all you Rebels forget what Homeone and Ackbar did for Victory class ships for the longest time? High activation all ship fleets came about to specifically counter, Ackbar/Homeone, you can build a Rebel fleet designed to go first that will cripple any Demo fleet.

Rieekan+Aces negates him, as the whole Idea of Demo is to kill and move on, not kill and then get blown up.

Mon Mothma, combined with the right ships is a nightmare.

Lando can make it fluff at the crunch moment.

Advanced projectors on an MC80 means it has a roughly 90% chance of surviving a triple tap from Demo (just damage from Demo).

Outbidding to get player one, probably the easiest counter of all.

Demo is not easymode, you need to practice, practice and practice, movement, arcs, you mess that up by a fraction, you aren't triple tapping anything the following round. And you need to be player one, as player two Demo is a entirely different ship, getting a double arc is extremely tough, almost as tough as not throwing Demolisher into range of multiple ships, just to side arc one of them.

And that is before the advent of wave 3 stuff, or wave 4.

My flotilla with Quantum Storm, Tractor Beams, and Slicer Tools has killed a Demolisher. He had jumped in to hit the flotilla at speed 3, got Scattered, and was pointing off the board. He needed a Nav command next turn to be able to slow down and turn back onto the board. Next turn, Slicer Tools made sure he zoomed off into hyperspace at speed 3 Granted that was probably a one time occurance, ever, but I greatly enjoyed it haha.

Wulff is a hard counter to this. You get the nav token turn one

... and lose it to a tractor beam turn 3. Thats why tractor beam was mentioned together with slicers.

The only issue I have it that the DemoMSU fleet has Demolisher usually going to end it's turn by moving last and arriving near your ship (and firing). So Tractors don't stop it getting in position. Then it activates first and isn't worried about slicer tools or tractor beams. If you cannot activate after the Demolisher moves on turn 2 or before it moves on turn 3, that combo does nothing.

Against a reasonable number of ships that just have Demolisher with them (3-4), this might work.

There are many ways to counter Demolisher, so no I do not agree it is broken, no more than several other things that are as equally powerful in their own way.

I mean did all you Rebels forget what Homeone and Ackbar did for Victory class ships for the longest time? High activation all ship fleets came about to specifically counter, Ackbar/Homeone, you can build a Rebel fleet designed to go first that will cripple any Demo fleet.

Rieekan+Aces negates him, as the whole Idea of Demo is to kill and move on, not kill and then get blown up.

Mon Mothma, combined with the right ships is a nightmare.

Lando can make it fluff at the crunch moment.

Advanced projectors on an MC80 means it has a roughly 90% chance of surviving a triple tap from Demo (just damage from Demo).

Outbidding to get player one, probably the easiest counter of all.

To be clear on my end. If you take the normal jacked up Demolisher build and replace the title with Insidious, I don't worry in any way, shape, or form about that ship. It is the shoot after moving mechanic that I have the serious issues with. The base ship is just fine.

You mention that Demo's goal is to move on, not kill and get blown up. Demolisher is absolutely about suicide runs and trading up. You pick the biggest ship in your opponents fleet and throw Demolisher at it. The damage you can put out reaches being able to destroy an ISD before it can activate. If Demolisher survives, then so much the better. Rieekan helps, but only because the destroyed ship at least then can maybe kill Demo in retribution.

Mon Mothma makes no sense as a counter to Demo. Demo engages at range one with a large number of black dice. Getting to reroll one is not that helpful when they throw 4+ more at you. Any rebel ships sporting evades are not big enough to take that much damage.

.Lando is amazing and really does help. But only once, on one ship.

That targeting scrambler or whatever it is called that the Interdictor can take is about the only upgrade that will really shut down Demolisher. Trouble is that only Imperials get the silver bullet.

Church, what do you call a fully tooled up Demolisher? What is the cost of that ship? I find your talk of "trading up" somewhat odd.