I've started this thread so as not to derail the Veteran Gunners thread

While reading that one, on of the early comments was to compare the use of Veteran Gunners with a Gunnery Team as they compete for the same slot on a ship.

In theory the Gunnery Team sounds much better as it can let you fire twice from what is usually your must devastating hull zone with the stipulation that you can't target the same ship twice. As opposed to the Gunnery Team that allows re-rolls and (possibly) improves your regular shooting from a single arc (you have to exhaust the card)

I'm curious how often you guys get to use a Gunnery Team? I used to fit it by default to my Assault Frigate but starting leaving it out as I simply never got to use it much.

I suspect the answer will be "It depends..." largely on how you choose to fly your ships.

Is it an upgrade you would expect to be able to use multiple times in a game, or do you only realistically expect to get to use it once, maybe twice? (these may be critical points in the game though)

Maybe only once per game.

If the opponent is bright at all, they're going to maneuver to avoid that arc.

Once you know they're going to maneuver, that gives you the option to construct the rest of your fleet to kill in the areas that they're trying to hide in.

It has some utility against fighters, but having GT on every ship is overkill, if you're playing someone who knows to avoid the arc with more than one ship. Part of the gunnery team benefit is knowing your opponent will likely come at you from multiple arcs, as Vergilius said, which is helpful in knowing where to deploy. I just think spamming it on everything is a waste of points.

Aye, Gunnery Teams are nice but I basically relegate them to ships that have a decent long range armament of reds and blues which cover a fairly large area. When black dice show up, it's hard to range in more than one ship unless they're operating in very tight formations, (Usually CR90's and if that's the case, they're in trouble anyway for getting that close).

Vergilius' observation is mostly what I've seen, too: 1 or maybe 2 rounds of ideal shooting is typically all you'll get against enemy ships. I'm likewise incline to agree with Cally's notion that Gunnery Teams are often used to sweep off enemy fighters that would otherwise try to 'arc dodge' so they won't seem like a wasted shot compared to a more tempting ship. That tends to be the situation that the 3-4 uses comes into effect during the mid and late game when squadrons are playing the scavenger role.

Gunnery Teams aren't cheap, so while some ships may get a lot of mileage out of them (ISD-II's are ideal platforms, VSD-II's if you're incline, Ackbar enhanced MC30's could fit in here) they aren't necessarily an auto-include. Ships like the RAF or the ISD-I can be reliably outfitted with other options and not suffer too greatly because of it. Veteran Gunners might not be the millstone that they first appeared. Still, there's a lot of competition on black dice ships from Ordnance Experts and the forthcoming Fire-Control Teams, and in large carrier ships with Flight Controllers.

Gunnery Teams are legit on more expensive ships with larger dice pools, particularly in certain "sweet" arcs. A lot of people think of this as an opportunity to attack twice from the best arc and are then disappointed when this doesn't always work out. It is true that using Gunnery Teams that way is the strongest method of using them, but I'd recommend you consider them an upgrade that allows more expensive longer-ranged ships the ability to nearly always get two attacks each turn, with Gunnery Team allowing you to optimize good situations (ex: two good targets in your best arc) or recover better from bad situations(ex: two targets in an okay arc, a good target in your front arc and a small number of squadrons, etc.). Dropping 100+ points on a ship only to find it gets just one attack a turn is extremely disappointing compared to fielding two small or medium ships for a similar cost and getting at least two separate attacks and activations from them. Gunnery Team helps with that.

With all that said, I'd only consider Gunnery Teams essential on ISD-IIs and VSD-IIs. They will likely be the default weapon team on Liberty MC80s, but that's said without the benefit of play experience. You can make an argument for them on ISD-Is, VSD-Is, and Ackbar-buffed Assault Frigates and MC-30s but that comes down to commander, other upgrades, and intended usage of the ship within the fleet.

Aye, Gunnery Teams are nice but I basically relegate them to ships that have a decent long range armament of reds and blues which cover a fairly large area. When black dice show up, it's hard to range in more than one ship unless they're operating in very tight formations, (Usually CR90's and if that's the case, they're in trouble anyway for getting that close).

Vergilius' observation is mostly what I've seen, too: 1 or maybe 2 rounds of ideal shooting is typically all you'll get against enemy ships. I'm likewise incline to agree with Cally's notion that Gunnery Teams are often used to sweep off enemy fighters that would otherwise try to 'arc dodge' so they won't seem like a wasted shot compared to a more tempting ship. That tends to be the situation that the 3-4 uses comes into effect during the mid and late game when squadrons are playing the scavenger role.

Gunnery Teams aren't cheap, so while some ships may get a lot of mileage out of them (ISD-II's are ideal platforms, VSD-II's if you're incline, Ackbar enhanced MC30's could fit in here) they aren't necessarily an auto-include. Ships like the RAF or the ISD-I can be reliably outfitted with other options and not suffer too greatly because of it. Veteran Gunners might not be the millstone that they first appeared. Still, there's a lot of competition on black dice ships from Ordnance Experts and the forthcoming Fire-Control Teams, and in large carrier ships with Flight Controllers.

I agree, and the common denominator I find is that it works best on ships you want to fly aggressively. You can't assume people are going to fly in and let you get multiple shots so you have to force the issue.

They have a role in denial as well. I have had occasion to throw a number of Raiders at an arc of a wounded ship knowing that one is going to get hammered but the other/s will do the hurt and the swap is worth it against a larger ship. I would be less inclined to do this against a gunnery team armed ship because....

I remember a game in which my opponent slammed group of Raiders at my very badly damaged ackbar enhanced assault frigates (both with gunnery teams) hoping for a finishing shot against each... Instead the raiders got shovelled off the board (he would have tabled me with out gunners but instead I won).

So yes for me big red dice arcs + gunnery team.

GT is only required on large battery ships. VSD II, ISD II and maybe Ackbar Guppy. The new MC80s fit this style, especially considering Madine, ETech, double black point defence. You want your large expensive gun boat to hit squadrons in the same arc at minimum. You want to be able to shoot mutilple ships.

Considering the sheer amount of targets in Wave 4, floatilla/float carriers, GT is going to be a pretty hot choice on the right ship.

With all the talk of low bids for objectives bidding for a large ship first player GT attack to pop a floatilla and shoot X other target is looking good. The aforementioned Madine/MC80 comes to mind.

I'll admit, I haven't played GT much lately because the times I've used them in the past, they did not seem to come into play enough to warrant the points. But I do think that even if you don't get the two shots every round, they will force opponents to change their plans or pay the price.

I really could see the Madine Liberty being very good with GT. It should make it more likely to maneuver to end the round with two ships in range. As first player in that situation, you can guarantee two good shots. As second player, you force the opponent to move one of those ships first--which you might be able to take advantage of--and then you're still guaranteed to get a good shot on one of them.

I agree with the Liberty being a good prospect for the same reason as the ISD/VSD are good prospects: as pointed out before, the disproportionate amount of dice is being payed for with those ships' fleet price point. If you aren't getting enough shots off then they're not used to maximum effect Whether or not they are put into a position to benefit from that ability is another matter and based on player skill, combination/upgrades, and match ups.

But I also think, as Jondavis alluded to in a way, that the size of the arc itself really comes into effect. For all the times I've said 'awwww, I wish Salvation had a Weapon's Team option so I could put in Gunnery Teams' I'm forced to admit that the opportunities to use those arcs to their maximum effect. The Nebby-Salvation fire arcs are nice and long ranged but we're talking about a pretty restricted angle with which to actually shoot with any effect. Even if given the opportunity to take Gunnery Teams, it's not all that easy to utilize on every ship because of their firing arcs. The ISD, VSD, LMC are all great candidates for Gunnery Teams because of the combination of the weight of fire and the field of fire.

What do you think, sir Michael Gernes, mate? We see you there, we promise we're not mad anymore! Minus Cally, that lucky devil has no reason to be

Hahaha, Vykes, you're awesome, man.

To me, GT is definitely for anti squad help from ships. And if you can land two main battery shots, it's just as good.

But it's far from auto equip.

Yea I like gunnery teams, but I'm starting to see things differently with regard to it's use on ISD2... especially after Biggs's article... I used to think it was auto include, but now I think you really need to have a look at what the list it's trying to do before deciding whether or not to bring gunnery teams... I mean shooting a ship, then shooting squads in the same arc is nice... but if I'm honest with myself, it's not what I'm picturing in my head when I'm equipping them... no... what I'm picturing is two small to medium based ships being erased from the histories in one activation, crippling my opponent list and sending him into convulsions... and while I think that achieving that scenario is absolutely achievable, you have to work for it... building a list to go last first, that can out activate another small ship list, while including a tooled up ISD2 can be daunting though... but can be done... again, you may just face a list that only has 2-3 ships and getting off the gunnery teams shot may just be impossible...

Going back to denial. We all agree that getting two ships in arc can be difficult. What you have to ask yourself is why

1) If I did not have gunner would it be likely that I end up with two ships in arc. For me the answer is yes, the reason being is that any good opponent will try to concentrate fire on one ship and limit the return fire....easiest way is to park two ships snug in one arc.

2) can I stop that, yes by hard planning and adapting how and where I move or take gunnery teams

3) if I have gunnery teams what happens to how my opponent plays...my opponent will not allow two ships in my arc, how can he achieve this....hard planning and adapting where he moves and having a reduced chance to concentrate on my ship.

If you stop thinking of gunnery teams in absolute bean counting, transactional terms ( how many dice they gave me in a game) and Instead look holistically at how they made my life easier ( with their defensive capacity) and how they made my opponent change and adapt strategy and movement ( non transactional offensive ability). They become very cheap.....

I agree with Jondavies72, the second-best part about gunnery teams is to deny your enemy the option to park multiple ships in a single arc. The more you are finding yourself tempted to build fleets of few large, heavy kitted, heavy upgraded ships, the more you need gunnery teams. You might not get to shoot from that menacing arc on two different targets even once in that game, but you force your enemy to spread out.

To me, GT is definitely for anti squad help from ships. And if you can land two main battery shots, it's just as good.

But it's far from auto equip.

Oh boy yes !

I've seen the best use of Gunnery Team on AFMK2 A's to be able to shoot at both Squadrons and Ships. I found that the craze of putting GT on ISD2s and VSD2s has quite dropped in my area since people naturally don't want to be in the front arc of these bad boys anyways.

Putting them on Front Arc ships also tend to make people aim for the dual shot, and on ISD/VSDs it usually means only shooting red dice because that's where most double tapping occurences will be. Personally, I'd rather aim for getting the highest amount in the dice pool though.

The most crazy use I've witnessed was on 2 Whales flying a conga line in an Ackbar list when a friend got the Sullust pack before everyone else. It was absolutely crazy and they promptly shot my Victory to bits while they were closing in

Can someone explain, "I'm likewise incline to agree with Cally's notion that Gunnery Teams are often used to sweep off enemy fighters that would otherwise try to 'arc dodge' so they won't seem like a wasted shot compared to a more tempting ship. That tends to be the situation that the 3-4 uses comes into effect during the mid and late game when squadrons are playing the scavenger role."

Gunnery teams states you can't attack the same ship or squadron. If that's the case gunnery teams kind of weak against fighters. Unless you're saying that you use one roll to attack fighters and the other to attack ships.

Whoa! The thread zombie strikes again. For future reference, it is usually better just to create a new thread with your new question, and then link to the old thread as a reference point.

And yes, they mean one roll for fighters and one roll for ships from the same hull zone.

12 minutes ago, Shieldwolf said:

Can someone explain, "I'm likewise incline to agree with Cally's notion that Gunnery Teams are often used to sweep off enemy fighters that would otherwise try to 'arc dodge' so they won't seem like a wasted shot compared to a more tempting ship. That tends to be the situation that the 3-4 uses comes into effect during the mid and late game when squadrons are playing the scavenger role."

Gunnery teams states you can't attack the same ship or squadron. If that's the case gunnery teams kind of weak against fighters. Unless you're saying that you use one roll to attack fighters and the other to attack ships.

hes referring to when you have a ship they want to shoot at and then place all your squadrons in the same arc so he has to choose, with gunnery teams nowhere safe to hide

I usually equip my AFll with gunnery teams, but only because my usual opponent flys his interdictor and victory close enough that I can get both of them (usually) from my side arc (enhanced armament)