If you have your players in a Wayfarer (silhouette 5) shooting at TIEs (silhouette 3) that's going to be Hard: Gunnery checks. That will make for some misses. However, TIEs are incredibly squishy so it rarely takes more than two hits, tops, for one to go down. Sounds to me like the only thing that went "wrong" here was that your players had bad luck on some dice rolls and got discouraged.

Also, a Gozanti is a pretty sturdy ship - it might take a while to whittle it down. Maybe have the next encounter include something that doesn't survive as long, especially if your players have little skill in Gunnery.

Had a longer post, then lost it in a mis-click. *crying eyes*

Short version:

1. Looks like the party has a HUGE weakness in the space combat department. No piloting or mechanic-y specs, gunnery not on anyone's career skills, and I wouldn't expect more than 2 of the characters listed to have a 3 or better in Agility. You hit them in the group's dump stat (but maybe not even that hard, see below) and IMO that's a good thing to do every now and again.

2. Did they get hung up on trying to destroy the Gozanti? Both ships have a higher speed than the Gozanti, so they'd have a definite advantage in a chase (which probably should've been the scenario, unless they CHOSE to stick around and fight it). Given this, they should only have taken a very few shots from the Gozanti before it was out of range.

3. Assuming they outran the Gozanti, the bulk of the encounter would've been just 4 TIEs. Obviously, the TIEs couldn't've stopped them from jumping to hyperspace, so did they CHOSE to stay and try to shoot down TIEs?

4. Encounter length could be an issue as you said. Assuming structured play from liftoff, it is at least 6 rounds for the Wayfarer to reach long range (1 & 2: Accelerate to speed 2, 3 & 4: Fly from Long to Medium, 5 & 6: Fly from Medium to Close) and be able to mash the hyperspace button. If you started them at max speed, it could be only 4 rounds.

5. Great job on giving them other things to do which their characters -were- good at.

I could be wrong, but if the players did anything other than run away they extended the length of an encounter they were bad at and kinda brought it on themselves a little. It seems like a pretty kill-y group, so encourage them to think outside the box (either by talking with the players or in-game with NPCs ("Attack?!?! What are you, crazy? All we need to do is run!")). You could work in them being handed (b/c I doubt they'll spend the credits on it) an Advanced Targeting Array (maybe even with the double upgrade mod) to make up for their lack of ranks in Gunnery. IMO, it seems like this group isn't wanting to indulge in space combat though, and forcing them to on the regular isn't going to help matters. I'd stick to keeping them in short chases with no more than 4 minion enemies once they have the Advanced Array. Hopefully this remains them that it's there and part of the game, without it being a large part of the game.

I find this system terrible for anything but chases. You certainly do not want to stick around in a space battle, even if only considering that every hull point is 500cr to repair...but mostly because it's just a clunky system. So bone up on the chase mechanic, and as noted above, don't let it run more than a few rounds. 2 is nice and satisfying, 3-4 can be fun, 5+ is a chore (and lethal).

In a chase you have a goal, you have to get from point A to point B and then something will happen (the cavalry arrive, the ship can go to hyperspace, they can hide in the clouds of a planet or the cave of an asteroid...etc). So:

1. make sure you set the terrain level so that the pilot has a reasonable chance of getting to point B. This means looking at your pilot and scaling the difficulty according to your intended outcome. Just a note, if you use the RAW terrain rules, going any speed at all is ridiculously dangerous, so be flexible with that.

2. determine how many successful turns it will take to get from point A to point B. Best not to make this more than 2 or 3 because if the pilot fails they won't make progress.

When running a chase, there is actually a lot people can do that isn't gunnery:

- the pilot gets to actually do something, even in a capital ship. Their success or failure determines progress to point B. Failure means they were outflanked or had to avoid terrain or avoid enemy fire, and have to circle around. Now, this may seem boring on the face of it that the pilot only gets to fly, but because of the narrative dice it really plays into the team effort. The pilot might fail a roll, but they might also get lots of advantages or even a triumph, and that will impact the rest of the team ("You swing around an asteroid, and find yourself cut off, nothing for it but to dive! In doing so you line up a perfect shot for the gunner...")

- social skills: the face PC can be extremely useful, inspiring friends or coercing foes. Fire control (Leadership) is a great way to increase the odds of the gunner's success. If they can speak to the enemy they can maybe rattle them (applying setback or even strain).

- Computers: scan the enemy and find a weak spot (add boost to the next roll); or hack the enemy systems and give them setback; jam their transmissions so they can't coordinate, etc.

In fact, if you play it right, gunnery can almost be an afterthought, the thing that is done after all the others have a turn, that capitalizes on their previous successes.

Personally, I think you need to throw more vehicle combat at them. You should impress upon them the importance of those skills in this game. In my games my players always tend to build their characters combat heavy and neglect everything else. In more than half a dozen sessions I have dealt more environmental damage to them than damage from actual combat (falling damage can get nasty lol). Many of them got the hint and started investing points in survival, athletics, and coordination. I captured one of my players the second time they piloted a ship, this wasn't intentional but they did not have any skills and an average agility and thought it would be cool to get in an A-wing. Sometimes things aren't fair, my best advice to you is to keep the challenge in the game, but always have a scenario that takes failure into consideration.

When I first started GMing, I did not understand space combat at all, let alone the chase rules. After re-reading a lot and listening to Order 66 ep 25 all about space combat it really helped. Now you say you've done this so I'll provide some ideas you might think of trying:

1. Limit the amount of time the combat encounter/chase can be to a few rounds, not just how far away you can get. why? Because Freighters are slower than TIEs and the advantage they have over TIEs is that they actually have a hyperdrive. Mention to the players they can try to jump to hyperspace immediately and depending on the Astrogation check, tell them how many rounds until they jump (at the end of the round).

2. Explain a little further about the things one can do in a ship if they have issues with what to do. Stuff like boost shields, plot course, fire discipline, etc... all of those help other players, so you can aid the guy in the gunnery seat or boost the shields for a round so the ship is less likely to take damage or help the pilot ignore some setback when plotting a course. I'm not sure how much they actually tried when in the gunner seats (did they aim, did someone use fire discipline, did they flip a destiny point to upgrade their roll? Those are 3 things that can be done to boost your attack.)

3. Give them a real motivation to participate in the scene. Make their attacker try to reach them on the comms and reveal it's someone they know or something like that. Give them a reason to try to run fight or hide.

- social skills: the face PC can be extremely useful, inspiring friends or coercing foes. Fire control (Leadership) is a great way to increase the odds of the gunner's success. If they can speak to the enemy they can maybe rattle them (applying setback or even strain).

This is one thing that is often highly overlooked by PCs and GMs alike. If the face has access to Scathing Tirade and has the ability to communicate with the enemy ships, he can give them a migthy chewing out.

Where can I find a copy of "GM Hooley’s excellent action/maneuver guide"? Sounds like just the thing my players need as well! I've checked the compiled resources list but couldn't spot it in there... That may just be me tho... U should see me trying to find things in supermarkets

- social skills: the face PC can be extremely useful, inspiring friends or coercing foes. Fire control (Leadership) is a great way to increase the odds of the gunner's success. If they can speak to the enemy they can maybe rattle them (applying setback or even strain).

This is one thing that is often highly overlooked by PCs and GMs alike. If the face has access to Scathing Tirade and has the ability to communicate with the enemy ships, he can give them a migthy chewing out.

Scathing Tirade has a strict range limit, and there is nothing to suggest that comms extend that range. Allowing it to carry over comms can set an ugly precedent for other interaction-based talents that have range limits.

Where can I find a copy of "GM Hooley’s excellent action/maneuver guide"? Sounds like just the thing my players need as well! I've checked the compiled resources list but couldn't spot it in there... That may just be me tho... U should see me trying to find things in supermarkets

Here you go:

http://www.d20radio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=152&t=13920

Brilliant, many thanks Greyh Seer! Just had a quick look & these are really handy!!

- social skills: the face PC can be extremely useful, inspiring friends or coercing foes. Fire control (Leadership) is a great way to increase the odds of the gunner's success. If they can speak to the enemy they can maybe rattle them (applying setback or even strain).

This is one thing that is often highly overlooked by PCs and GMs alike. If the face has access to Scathing Tirade and has the ability to communicate with the enemy ships, he can give them a migthy chewing out.

Scathing Tirade has a strict range limit, and there is nothing to suggest that comms extend that range. Allowing it to carry over comms can set an ugly precedent for other interaction-based talents that have range limits.

And so it does, SHORT range. It does not specify personal or planetary scale. And neither does Inspiring Rhetoric, yet historically since the invention of the radio, media has been used to inspire nations into action when needed. For example,

FDR's "A day that will live in Infamy" speech in 1941

JFK'S "We will go to the moon" speech in the 60's

Reagan's "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" speech to close the cold war and start the German re-unification process.

Now, would I give it carte blanche approval all of the time? No. But, if the PC can come up with something that is appropriate to the situation for either ST or IR (which the OP's post is not the case) I would allow it. Hell even upgrade the difficulty 1 time and throw a set back or 2 in for not being able to see them.

For example,

PCs are on a light freighter and flying into a system and are being harassed by the local space militia, they send out a flight of Z-95s to force the ship to land, but the PCs don't want that as they are carrying lots of contraband.

The Face is not getting anywhere with his deception rolls to pass unmolested. If the PC could come up with a decent cover, like: They are a Nobel (or corporate official) on an official, but secret governmental business and if they do not leave the ship, he will see the pilot's fired and their families run out of the system. It could be a fun thing.

It might prevent a long drawn out running gun battle.

It is an unique use of the talent

It lets a PC that, if the situation did devolve into a fire fight, would likely be doing nothing during the fight

I don't necessarily disagree about letting players extend the range of Scathing Tirade and/or Inspiring Rhetoric; there are items, like the collar amp from Far Horizons, that seem to be made pretty specifically with this possibility in mind. And I absolutely agree that you should come up with ways for all the players to participate in space combat. However, there are some flaws in your argument.

First of all, you say that the talent doesn't discriminate between the personal or planetary definitions of Short range. By that argument you should be able to shoot at someone at planetary medium range (several kilometres, at the very least) with a common blaster pistol if you happen to be standing on the hood of a landspeeder at the time. The talent is obviously meant to be used on a personal scale. Furthermore, once you start using radio it doesn't really matter if the enemy starship is at Medium range or Extreme range; radio waves in space will get there no matter what.

But the biggest flaw in the theory is that the enemy could simply use an Incidental to change the channel on their radio, or turn it off entirely, and therefore not have to listen to a single word of that Scathing Tirade. There's really no way to force anyone to listen to you yell at them over the radio.

But the biggest flaw in the theory is that the enemy could simply use an Incidental to change the channel on their radio, or turn it off entirely, and therefore not have to listen to a single word of that Scathing Tirade. There's really no way to force anyone to listen to you yell at them over the radio.

True, but I'd allow at least one attempt, especially if the enemy has already established communications, e.g. "Surrender or we'll turn you into scrap". Effectively, radio or holograms put you in short range, despite the real world distance. After that, the Far Horizons book has some good advice on preventing the players from overusing such talents. You can only trash talk somebody so much before it's just irritating or they ignore you. So sure, Tirade away, and then watch as the enemy commander cuts the comms.

A great example of this is TCW season 5 E1. Obi wan and Adi gallia are tracking Maul and Savage to Hondo's planet on Florum. Honda does a great Scathing Tirade, saying Maul isn't the first "laser-sword-wielding maniac" he's had to deal with, and he survives every time. The emotion I read on Maul is sudden doubt (maybe he took a little Strain), but he still puts on a show of bravado. Meanwhile in the background, you can see Hondo waving to his minions to cut the feed.

(speaking of which, I really miss that level of detail in TCW...Rebels just doesn't get there...)

I like whafrog's suggestion. My players had fun the other day when the Coercion/Deception monkey and the Computers monkey kept hacking the enemy ship's comms to pipe in propaganda/demoralizingly-bad music.

Had a longer post, then lost it in a mis-click. *crying eyes*

Short version:

1. Looks like the party has a HUGE weakness in the space combat department. No piloting or mechanic-y specs, gunnery not on anyone's career skills, and I wouldn't expect more than 2 of the characters listed to have a 3 or better in Agility. You hit them in the group's dump stat (but maybe not even that hard, see below) and IMO that's a good thing to do every now and again.

2. Did they get hung up on trying to destroy the Gozanti? Both ships have a higher speed than the Gozanti, so they'd have a definite advantage in a chase (which probably should've been the scenario, unless they CHOSE to stick around and fight it). Given this, they should only have taken a very few shots from the Gozanti before it was out of range.

3. Assuming they outran the Gozanti, the bulk of the encounter would've been just 4 TIEs. Obviously, the TIEs couldn't've stopped them from jumping to hyperspace, so did they CHOSE to stay and try to shoot down TIEs?

4. Encounter length could be an issue as you said. Assuming structured play from liftoff, it is at least 6 rounds for the Wayfarer to reach long range (1 & 2: Accelerate to speed 2, 3 & 4: Fly from Long to Medium, 5 & 6: Fly from Medium to Close) and be able to mash the hyperspace button. If you started them at max speed, it could be only 4 rounds.

5. Great job on giving them other things to do which their characters -were- good at.

I could be wrong, but if the players did anything other than run away they extended the length of an encounter they were bad at and kinda brought it on themselves a little. It seems like a pretty kill-y group, so encourage them to think outside the box (either by talking with the players or in-game with NPCs ("Attack?!?! What are you, crazy? All we need to do is run!")). You could work in them being handed (b/c I doubt they'll spend the credits on it) an Advanced Targeting Array (maybe even with the double upgrade mod) to make up for their lack of ranks in Gunnery. IMO, it seems like this group isn't wanting to indulge in space combat though, and forcing them to on the regular isn't going to help matters. I'd stick to keeping them in short chases with no more than 4 minion enemies once they have the Advanced Array. Hopefully this remains them that it's there and part of the game, without it being a large part of the game.

1. yes, the groups pilot is also the healer and no one really has any training in pilot. Most have a 2 in agility.

2. I actually don't think they even fired at the Gozanti. They spent most of thier time focusing on the TIEs when they wern't ignoring the space battle complely

3. They Didn't choose to stay and fight - but they kept failing astrogation checks and when they did succeed, they generated enough threat to cause them to stay around a bit.

4. I did find the encounter long...but I expected that...I thought there would be enough interesting stuff going on to offset the length...I was wrong

5. Thanks - I tried...though I feel like it ended up being a bit much. I plan to change the ship/get some free upgrades to them...add another weapon etc

From my own experience with my my group (which was a AoR group). When I ran the adventure, we had a Sullistan Solider, a Mon Cal Engineer, Murder bot 5000, a Survivalist BH, a Togruta Sharpshooter, and a Kel-Dor Jedi. All but the BH had over 300 XP.

The space combat scenes were also a challenge for my group as none have gunnery or any piloting (or if they do, they have 1 level). The chase through the canyon on Raxus Prime took forever, as did the flight from Chalganna.

For skill checks like Astrogation (along with a few others) I like to suggest/insert qualifiers on the check to make it less absolute and more granular. In astrogation's case specifically you often are trying to get to a target planet, so instead of the check being "Do you make the jump to hyperspace?" it can become "Do you arrive on target?" This is something others refer to as "Failing Forward" and it might've been something you could've used here. Instead of them not making hyperspace on a failed roll, a failure could have them be off target in the destination system, needing to spend hours flying to the destination or computing another astrogation check for a micro-jump. Failure with despair could have them not even end up in the target system.

Looking at the situation with this lens, the first astrogation check they made could've been the only one required. They either end up in orbit over Raxus Prime or not, and threat might put them in range of one of the Imperial patrols in system (which they'd then have to deal with).

Looking forward, you may have a rough next session unless you drop the TIE fighter chase. It could be an opportunity though, as long as you keep it short and only use 2 TIEs it might be a nice little encounter. I'd use no more than 3 of the scenarios on page 78 before writing in something to destroy or divert the TIEs if the PCs can't get them before then.

I don't think this was your issue, so much as its just your players A. not putting points into skills or abilities, and B. not being able to roll for beans. Thankfully, with a little XP, your guys can improve their skills, and bad dice rolls just happen.
I would keep tossing occasional vehicle encounters at them...don't swamp them, but more remind them that theres more to Star Wars than blasters and light sabers.

Space combat in this game system SUCKS. Unless you turn it into a chase.

That is why when you are first introducing them to space/vehicle combat you throw a handful of TIE fighters at them, and expect them to beat it. then throw more, and finally bring in some beefier ships.