I thought I share my views on the Necromancer class which I want to like, but is simply meh, in my opinion.

What I like:

1) Familiars

2) The reanimate is fairly strong in Act I, especially with Vampiric Blood. Blue+Red+Yellow is amazing in Act I

3) Corpse Blast is kind of cool. Blast can be awesome

4) Army of Death: An Attack targeting ALL monsters in LOS with the dice of my reanimate? Yes please.

What I don't like:

1) The reanimate is extremely weak. 4 (+2 possible) HP, 0 (+1brown possible) Defense is just meh.

2) The reanimate has only one surge ability, but may roll up to three surges. Meh.

3) In Act II, there is hardly any development anymore. Vampiric Blood, Dark pact, Undead Might. And only Vampiric Blood is worth the XP, imo

4) The overlord is constantly killing the reanimate (it usually takes only one action)

5) That means that the Necro is constantly reanimating a meh familiar.

6) This puts me in a strange position: If I have a nice weapon, I do not attack because I'm busy reanimating that stupid familiar -> what a waste! Or I attack with my weapon, ignoring the familiar. But what is the point of playing the necro in this case?

This is the reason why I would like to suggest some modifications. And I am interested in your opinions.

1) The necromancer can reanimate 2 familiars. 1 Reanimated Warrior (melee, blue+red) and 1 Reanimated Archer (ranged, blue+yellow)

2) Both familiars are allowed to equip items.

- Warrior: Melee weapons, shields, Light or heavy armor.

- Archer: Bows, exotic (?). 2 Hands, Cloaks or light armor.

3) The necromancer cannot equip any light or heavy armor. Only cloaks. This makes him squishy and he must be protected

4) If the necro is knocked out, both reanimates are defeated.

This solves a number of issues:

- The reanimates grow stronger also in act 2

- They can use more surge abillities (from the weapons they have equiped) and are much more fun to play since they are very different depending on the items.

- They can use gear the heroes have no use for. This puts the heroes in a nice dilemma: sell the item to get and upgrade of give it to a reanimate?

- Yes the necromancer will primarily reanimate his familiars and wont attack himself. I think this is a cool playstyle.

The skills need to be revised of course. I would keep corpse blast, furry of the undeath and deadly haste, but rework the other skills. For example: You need to by a certain skill to allow your reanimates to equip armor. But generally, the skills should be about reanimating and buffing of the familiars. I haven't thought of the details yet but I will come up with something in the next days or so.

I had already though of something like that

but equiping items on reanimate(s) makes many troubles, so, maybe just using the surge from the equipped weapon from the necromancer would be wise

want to see my work ?

Sure. I'm very open for more ideas.

Also, what trouble do you see? I'm a bit worried about unbalance but 2 familiars equals only 2 attacks just as a hero can perform 2 attacks. AND: the heroes must find/buy the gear for 2 familiars and not just for 1 mage. The group would be much more mobile though and the necromancer could use his actions to search/open doors etc.

I guess that needs a counter of some sort by forcing the necromancer to reanimate his familiars (using one action per familiar) on a regular basis. Maybe they suffer 2 damage every turn. Something like that.

I thought they could suffer damage/be defeated if they don't stay close to the necromancer (3 or 5 spaces) to limit the possibilities of abusing the presence of 2 familiars. A skill could increase the range of this 'necro-aura' similar to the bards 3XP skill which enhances the range of his 'auras'.

I still need to think about this. If the heroes get enough gear to equip both the reanimates and the necro, its 4 attacks/turn, so like a fifth hero.

I will work on that and present something more complete as soon as I can.

allowing the familiars to bring equipment is kind of troubling the balance because :

- items are not well balance, furthermore on act 2

- with weapons, it's more obivous. So, does reanimates have standard weapon ? be locked to some sort of ? Can sell back equipment ? how about money ?

- so dice would change with the weapons, armor, etc ... ?

- what about accessories ?

But if the reanimate could use the surge of the necromancer weapon, it would be a different story.

But I like your "aura" thing, even if limiting the move of 3 for the reanimate is already enough since they will not go far ...

http://hpics.li/43d4ced

It is true that the sort of items the heroes possess changes everything and one may claim that some items are unbalanced because too strong/too cheap etc. A few items come to my mind. However, these items are already available and my idea to allow the reanimates to equip items is (I believe) not so much of a game changer, because the heroes have to get those items in the first place. Just as it is the case already. So at the very least I wont INCREASE the item-related inbalance.

To be more specific:

Reanimated Warrior (4 HP, Speed 3, brown def-dice?)

Standard attack: blue+red. Surge: +1 damage

May equip:

- 1 one handed melee weapon. 1 shield. (Allow 2 Handed??)

- Light or heavy armor. (A skill is required for heavy)

- No accessories

- No relics

Reanimated Archer (3 HP, Speed 3, no def-dice)

Standard attack: blue+yellow. Surge: +1 range

May equip:

- 1 bow or 1 ranged exotic weapon

- Cloaks or light armor. (A skill is required for light)

- No accessories

- No relics

If a reanimated familiar has a weapon equipped, it uses the dice and surge abilities of the weapon instead of the normal attack.

Reanimates do not have any stats, fail all tests, cannot open doors/search etc. Just as normal.

The items the reanimates use are technically part of the mages stuff, so they can buy and sell them as normal, but they cannot use starting items of other classes.

This way, I am basically shifting the 2 attacks from the mage to 1+1 attack from the reanimates. The upside for the heroes is that there is more versatility, depending on the weapons the heroes may buy, but the downside is that they HAVE to equip the reanimates.

I am aware that this may lead to a snowball effect if the heroes get good items early, then the reanimates rule -> better for the heroes etc. This goes the other way as well. Crapy items -> crapy familiars.

Maybe this is too complex to figure out. But if it is possible to basically shift the 2 attacks from the mage itself to the reanimates, the balance should not be altered. So I need something to keep the necro busy and from attacking as well

seems like you miss my link

I think familiars with items are a bad idea, just imagine them with stun or immobilize weapons.

Also I fear that 2 familiars at the same time would be overkill, especially if they have strong attacks. Also keep in mind that the lack of surge abilities usually is the thing that makes familiar attacks weaker than hero attacks as they should be, because the hero isn't exposing himself for the attack.

I would do this differently.

First of all the necromancer should only be able to raise one familiar at a time, but he can have a starting skill with which he can switch to the other familiar without spending an action (just fatigue).

A 3xp skill could give the possibility to raise both familiars at the same time for one or two turns.

Familiars should be upgraded by skills imo, not by items. Each skill could have one section for melee and ranged familiar.

More powerfull skills that give the attacks powerfull surge abilities could cost fatigue to be activated (for instance: exhaust, 1 fatigue: the familiar gets one of the following surge abilities or one of the hero's weapons surge abilities).

I think this way the class could remain balanced within the fatigue/XP/gold ecosystem.

@ rugal:

So you can have up to 3 reanimates at a time, all your skills center around reanimates and you can only summon them by killing a monster? This seems extremely swingy to me. Also 3 extra familiars each with blue + red, pierce 1 and maybe swarm seems unbalanced, but I didn't test it.

Imo would be better if all skills are a bit toned down and you can raise a reanimate when a monster within X spaces dies (exhaust and fatigue cost)

what do you mean by swingy ?

what do you mean by swingy ?

Like I said, I haven't tested it, but I imagine this class to be either very strong if you are lucky enough to hit the killing blow to summon a reanimate or very weak if you are unlucky in this task (especially since the starting weapon does very little damage). With swingy I mean that good luck/bad luck doesn't affect the power of the class moderatly, but highly, or in other words the power of the class swings strongly with your luck.

Personally I'm not fond of very luck dependent basic skills, especially if every other cards needs them to do something.

So from a game design perspective, I am really not a fan of creating a very powerfull class and balance it by locking the power away behind a very luck dependent entry.

I see your point.

In other hand, Knight his highly based on this logic

but let me think of it and come back with new ideas.

I see your point.

In other hand, Knight his highly based on this logic

but let me think of it and come back with new ideas.

I think you are referring to "Advance", but I still don't see the similarities.

First the Knight has a stronger starting weapon with r+b and a possibility to reroll high defense rolls, so he is more likely to kill than the necromancer.

Second no other Knight skill requires a successfull advance.

Guys, thank you for this discussion.

I think I better understand now the flaws of my primary idea to give items to familiars.

1) It will greatly increase the 'swinginess' of the character by linking the strength of the familiars to items (and hence gold+luck) and not to XP (which one gets for sure)

2) Well armed familiars would be too strong since they can fight the monsters (at close) and there is no danger to the heroes if they are defeated. So it would make sense for the heroes to give them the best items availabe

3) This would cause anger for the hero group since the warrior and the scout would have to fight with stupid familiars for gear while nobody cares about magic weapons and runes (provided that the necro is the only mage and he is busy doing other stuff than attacking. If he can attack as well, this class would be OP with up to 4 attacks per turn)

4) If the familiars are not killed, then the necromancer has 2 free actions for searching, opening doors, etc. An he would still get two attacks by his familiars.

Still, I hold the opinion that the necromancer is kind of meh. More options to keep the familiar alive wouldn't hurt.

Anyway, thanks for your input.

Same here !

One thing is sure to me : the necromancer should be more different than in gameplay than the beastmaster.

So :

- the necromancer should raise dead from a dead corpse, when killing a monster (himself or within 3 spaces of him) but I need to think about it since it would be hard if impossible to use an action outside of his turn.

- the raised skeleton could be ranged more than melee fighter (so he could stay fragile since he will no more be in the melee)

- the necromancer class should change more during the campaign and not being too strong on act 1 and no enough in act 2.

Same here !

One thing is sure to me : the necromancer should be more different than in gameplay than the beastmaster.

So :

- the necromancer should raise dead from a dead corpse, when killing a monster (himself or within 3 spaces of him) but I need to think about it since it would be hard if impossible to use an action outside of his turn.

- the raised skeleton could be ranged more than melee fighter (so he could stay fragile since he will no more be in the melee)

- the necromancer class should change more during the campaign and not being too strong on act 1 and no enough in act 2.

The Necromancer is just not as 'solid' as the Runemaster. When the Runemaster gains abilities to blast or to surge, that stays good as it scales with the weapons. In contrary to the Reanimate that gets bonus X but that bonus is fixed and doesn't scale.

I was not talking about runemaster but beastmaster.

But yes, necromancer is not enough solid for many things on

Indeed, the scaling with campaign progress is important. I tried to link that to the weapons, but missed to see all the implications.

Rugal, I like your idea to have the familiar ranged. Maybe it would be cool to give the necromancer the option to raise either a ranged familiar which is more squishy, or a more durable melee? This way he could fill into the gaps a party might have, or strengthen the ranged/melee options depending on the quest.

I'm not so sure of your requirement to have a corpse available. Thematically it is cool, but what if the heroes start a quest with 2 fat shadow dragons in front of them? A necromancer would (probably) be useless in this case. Maybe it is better to assume that there are a lot bones and corpses in the soil of Terrinoth, fallen warriors of epic battles long ago

the idea of the corpse is for many things :

- Thematicaly (no needs to explain)

- To make a real difference with the beastmaster (the last summons his pet whenever he wants, so the reanimate needs a body but actionless). Because of that, the reanimate could be a litte more stronger then ?

- gameplay wise. Since the necromancer his a mage archetype, it should be played more with this particularity in mind

Furthermore, the Overlord has always the choice to adapt his strategy, monsters, and all after heroes made their choice. So choosing 2 Shadow dragons would maybe lock a bit the necromancer, but if the party has a berserker or a bounty hunter, the choice is not so good after all.

And the map has not only thoses monsters avalaible, so he will needs to go search the that one.

And all skills shouldn't be locked to the reanimate alone, but more on corpse logic, necromancy oblige!

I was not talking about runemaster but beastmaster.

But yes, necromancer is not enough solid for many things on

Yes of course. But comparing the Necro to the Runemaster is a bit more fair since A) they are both mages and B) they are both in the base game.

And since, I'm wondering if the necromancer class should have a "branch" in his skills more oriented on corpse logic.

You could chose either to boost the Skeleton (and he should be rename this way since now monsters have the same name to avoid troubles), or play more on killing monsters to have some sorts of boost.

I will think of it.

If you want to desperatly hold on to the idea of summoning the reanimate out of a corpse (which I think can be extremely hard to do when the OL chooses to go for big durable monsters), I would do it like this:

"Reanimate": 1 action, 1 fatigue: Exhaust this card. This card doesn't unexhaust at the start of your turn. When a monster within 3 spaces of you is defeated, unexhaust this card to summon a familiar of your choice in its place.

I think the idea of being able to summon different reanimates (melee, mage, archer) could be quite unique and differentiate this class from the Beastmaster. Especially if you can transmute your Reanimate to heal it or turn it into another type could be fun.

What about having only one reanimate that with two different branched trees? (Or perhaps three as DAMaz says: melee, ranger, mage)

You can have either one melee-tank reanimate, or a heavy hitter ranged reanimate. Skills 1, 2 and 3 will upgrade your reanimate, but only if you choose one path, while the last 1 and 2 skill will upgrade the relation between the reanimate and the necromancer. I think if I elaborate on the skills I could demonstrate what I'm saying.

Passive Skill #1: [Action] Place your reanimate on an empty space adjacent to you.

Passive Skill #2: [Action] Exhaust this card during your turn to test [Knowledge] if you pass, put fatigue token on the reanimate familiar card equal to your [Knowledge] value minus the shields rolled on the attribute test.

Additionally, when your reanimate would suffer any [Heart], he may discard any fatigue token instead.

Reanimate: 3 Speed|2 Health| No Defense | B;Y melee attack

This familiar is treated as a figure. During its activation, it may perform one attack action.

Heavy tank

1 EXP

Your reanimate gain +4 health. Your reanimate adds a Grey die to its defense pool.

2 EXP

You may only purchase this skill if you have [NAME] skill. Your reanimate gain Iron Skin and adds a Black die to its defense pool.

3 EXP

You may only purchase this skill if you have [NAME] skill. Your Reanimate adds a red die to its attack pool.

Heavy hitter

1 EXP

Your Reanimate add a Yellow die to its attack pool, additionally, its attack type now is ranged.

2 EXP

You may only purchase this skill if you have [NAME] skill. Your Reanimate gains Stealthy and Sorcery 3

3 EXP

You may only purchase this skill if you have [NAME] skill. Add a power die of your choice to every of your reanimates attacks.

Relation

1 EXP

[Action] Exhaust this card to activate your Reanimate. Your Reanimate still activates as normal this turn.

2 EXP

[Action]: Exhaust this card to choose another skill you currently own. While this card is exhausted, you gain the effects of the chosen skill as if you were the Reanimate.

I KNOW IT SOUNDS OP, but I wrote it just to simulate how it can be done.

My 2 cents...

To have as Rugal asks some link to the monsters defeated.. why not just add something like :
for each monster defeated by the necromancer / the reanimate / other heroes (keep what you think is best) add a fatigue token to the reanimate card
for each fatigue token add +1 damage to each attack or remove a fatigue token to add +1 damage to this attack
eventually : if the Reanimate is removed or re-invoked remove every fatigue token on the card.

... just a thought...

I think it would be cool to allow the necromancer to reanimate a defeated monster.

Reanimation - 3 strain & requires your reanimate to be on the board. You may interrupt after a monster within your line of sight is defeated to use this ability. Replace the monster back on the square it was defeated. Mark it with three strain tokens. You now control this monster and use any surges and abilities it has. Add one green die to it's attack (act I) or one yellow die (act II). Your reanimate familiar is immediately defeated. 1-2 base sized monsters only. After each attack, it spends one strain token. When all strain tokens area spent, the monster is defeated. You may only have one reanimation or reanimate familiar up at a time.

I agree the necromancer needs some love to help it out, especially in act II. It would also be really thematic for him to be able to reanimate Overlord's defeated monsters.

This would be a huge drawback for the OL, since he cannot use these figures as reinforcements. I don't think that any class should be able to mess with the OL reinforcements. This is a very important part of most quests and you wouldn't just alter the necro but the whole campaign. Also, it gets messy since this leads to monsters fighting for and against the heroes.