And I've had the opposite experience...

Odd, maybe dice and relative flying skills matter in this game?

This. This right here. Many people flying the Defenders are flying them because of the new hotness, but I've been using the ship since Wave 4. To say that I know how it flies inside and out is an understatement.

See the great thing about using Biggs/Norra/Braylen is that the Defender meta is all /X7. TIE/D is actually kind of a threat to that list,

eh...not really

see, the local defender peeps were using Tie/D Vess until they realized Biggs ate his shot and then the ARCs just obliterated him often in a single round

I've lost to x7s exactly once, due to a very bad play where the two ARCs split from each other (don't ever do this, one will die before the other makes it half way back; they're slowwwww) but Norra still 1v3ed them all past normal round time (casual game)

they'll easily beat defenders, provided you leverage that auxiliary arc and obstacles. Fly well, and the dice tampering given by r3-a2/gunner and r2-d2/tailgunner/norra will eventually see you through

x7s v ARCs are, however, easily the longest most dragged out affair ever. Oftentimes you'll win just by mentally outlasting the opponent, so make sure you show up well fed and hydrated

I might honestly be the reason we don't see x7s locally anymore. Everyone seems to hate my poor beautiful clone wars clunkers

If a TIE/D can survive that first round of shooting against an arc, my money is on them. But, with the meat grinder known as Norra Wexley, that can be hard if the TIE/D pilot isn't careful.

I'm actually quite happy to see there is different experiences reporting back here. It would be disheartening to see that one ship dominated with zero variation, but rather encouraging that player skill is a factor in these match ups, as it should be.

The ARC is an excercise in squad based movement and long term planning because aux arc != turret and due to aforementioned slowness

And Biggs, whom i STILL manage to run norra into after all this time

ARCing aint easy

And dice. Good and bad.

The ARC is an excercise in squad based movement and long term planning because aux arc != turret and due to aforementioned slowness

And Biggs, whom i STILL manage to run norra into after all this time

ARCing aint easy

What's your list? I'd love to put the smack down on my local /7 tyrant!

Sure Norra, Braylen, Biggs is a decent list, but I don't see it in any top16 results for recent regional tournaments. I do see some Norra with Rey though.

Often there are multiple copies of Vessery, Ryad, with Delta or Omega Leader or Palp in the top16 of recent regional tournaments.

The ARC is an excercise in squad based movement and long term planning because aux arc != turret and due to aforementioned slowness

And Biggs, whom i STILL manage to run norra into after all this time

ARCing aint easy

What's your list? I'd love to put the smack down on my local /7 tyrant!

Norra ptl r2d2 title tailgunner vts

Biggs r4d6 integrated

If your meta is pancake heavy, sub braylen for r3a2 Tailgunner r3a2 thane

He SLAUGHTERS dengaroo and rey. Makes me so **** happy too see ARCs run roughshod over those ships

Also floats bid for dash

Sure Norra, Braylen, Biggs is a decent list, but I don't see it in any top16 results for recent regional tournaments. I do see some Norra with Rey though.

Often there are multiple copies of Vessery, Ryad, with Delta or Omega Leader or Palp in the top16 of recent regional tournaments.

like i said, it aint easy to fly like a pwt is

Lack of regional success is largely irrelevant, though. The list has the mechanical capability to bulldoze x7 and mindlinks

Badatchups are tlts unless your higher ps go HAM and dash

**** dash

That is all

Fickle, that's a fun list. I'm thinking a recent squad I have tried (and so far want to continue to tinker with) would actually fair very well against it.

Glaive Squadron Pilot (34)
Wired (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/x7 (-2)

Glaive Squadron Pilot (34)
Wired (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/x7 (-2)

Tomax Bren (24)
Crack Shot (1)
Extra Munitions (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Guidance Chips (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I haven't actually gotten to run it with Tomax yet, before was just two Black Cracks just to test the Glaive's performance. With the errata, Tomax can ignore Biggs with his missiles, and the slow maneuvers of the ARC make it very hard for them to play the range game with him to avoid the missiles completely. Wired makes the Glaives oddly immune to token stripping, and they also make the x7 much less predictable, reopening the supremely useful 1-turn. Additionally, if you use your astromech to stress one of them, you may actually help them out if they also got a focus token that turn, allowing them to cherry pick when they spend the token for the best moment, and simply reroll any rolls where only one focus result comes up instead of being forced to spend it on a suboptimal opportunity. Additionally, their higher PS allows them to barrel roll Biggs out of arc in order to target someone else if so required. Not saying I'd beat you, I have no idea what our true relative skill is, but I direly wish for the opportunity to try, now...

Edit: Since I haven't gotten the chance to really put the Wired Fliers through their paces, I have a few other 32 point ships to swap out for Tomax. My other likely candidate is:

"Backdraft" (27)
Crack Shot (1)
Collision Detector (0)
Weapons Guidance (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

Backdraft is pretty underwhelming.

Fickle, that's a fun list. I'm thinking a recent squad I have tried (and so far want to continue to tinker with) would actually fair very well against it.

Glaive Squadron Pilot (34)

Wired (1)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/x7 (-2)

Glaive Squadron Pilot (34)

Wired (1)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/x7 (-2)

Tomax Bren (24)

Crack Shot (1)

Extra Munitions (2)

Homing Missiles (5)

Guidance Chips (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I haven't actually gotten to run it with Tomax yet, before was just two Black Cracks just to test the Glaive's performance. With the errata, Tomax can ignore Biggs with his missiles, and the slow maneuvers of the ARC make it very hard for them to play the range game with him to avoid the missiles completely. Wired makes the Glaives oddly immune to token stripping, and they also make the x7 much less predictable, reopening the supremely useful 1-turn. Additionally, if you use your astromech to stress one of them, you may actually help them out if they also got a focus token that turn, allowing them to cherry pick when they spend the token for the best moment, and simply reroll any rolls where only one focus result comes up instead of being forced to spend it on a suboptimal opportunity. Additionally, their higher PS allows them to barrel roll Biggs out of arc in order to target someone else if so required. Not saying I'd beat you, I have no idea what our true relative skill is, but I direly wish for the opportunity to try, now...

Edit: Since I haven't gotten the chance to really put the Wired Fliers through their paces, I have a few other 32 point ships to swap out for Tomax. My other likely candidate is:

"Backdraft" (27)

Crack Shot (1)

Collision Detector (0)

Weapons Guidance (2)

Lightweight Frame (2)

Special Ops Training (0)

I hate to say it, but i'm pretty sure i obliterated that exact list at my last tournament.

That may be true, Raz, but I like to think that I have a bit more skill with the ship than the average person flying the TIE Defender, seeing as at least one of them has been in almost every single list I've ever played since I won mine at the Assault on Imdaar Alpha event.

ignoring biggs with one ship isnt really worth it because you split fire

be more worried about a third wired x7

ignoring biggs with one ship isnt really worth it because you split fire

be more worried about a third wired x7

Cost doesn't fit. But if you can manage to shoot around Biggs for a turn or two, it's possible you can be closing the game against him. He's outright pathetic trying to dogfight even one Defender on its own, especially if he's got any stress from the droid.

But I haven't played against many ARCs, can you tell me on average how many Homing Missile hits they usually survive?

At least 3 homings to have any nonbullshit chance of one rounding an arc

Nonbullshit meaning no 3 damage major explosion into direct hits

The chances youll kill an arc with one bomber before the arcs kill your bomber are about as much as lightning frying your opponent on the spot on a sunny day, indoors

Pretty sure you can run 3 wired x7 glaives with potential steele or vess swap ins.

At least 3 homings to have any nonbullshit chance of one rounding an arc

Nonbullshit meaning no 3 damage major explosion into direct hits

The chances youll kill an arc with one bomber before the arcs kill your bomber are about as much as lightning frying your opponent on the spot on a sunny day, indoors

Pretty sure you can run 3 wired x7 glaives with potential steele or vess swap ins.

I haven't gotten to test them enough to see if they should or should not have the TIE Mk. II. Only got one game in with them, so more testing is needed. So the way I have them currently is 34 points a piece. Crappy weather and flaking players keep spoiling my chances to test them more thoroughly.

Also, I like the idea of keeping them both generics, as it makes it a little harder for the opponent to develop a clear plan to operate with.

The bomber is both the strongest and the most vulnerable ship in that list. He'd get one homing missile off and then he'd probably be double stressed and/or dead. I might use that missile to help kill Biggs - or stay out of range until Biggs is dead and be a real threat against the others - because then you would have 2 healthy defenders against the 2 ARCs.

And then a typical defender player will lose due to overconfidence - an expert one, against an expert ARC player, would be interesting.

The bomber is both the strongest and the most vulnerable ship in that list. He'd get one homing missile off and then he'd probably be double stressed and/or dead. I might use that missile to help kill Biggs - or stay out of range until Biggs is dead and be a real threat against the others - because then you would have 2 healthy defenders against the 2 ARCs.

And then a typical defender player will lose due to overconfidence - an expert one, against an expert ARC player, would be interesting.

interesting for maybe the 1st hour of nothing else dying

You know how different people can play the same game and lists and get completely different experiences?

I find Fenn Rau and Mindlinked squads tricky (I've never managed to win); you say that they are easy for you to win against; you keep saying that it takes ages to chip away at x7s; I've had no problems killing them before time gets called!

Rau is easy because stress shuts off his k/talons you so can just glide past him and go ham

Defenders, though, dont care so you gotta fly more carefully

and they still evade and have more health

And theres 3 of them...

Rau is easy because stress shuts off his k/talons you so can just glide past him and go ham

Defenders, though, dont care so you gotta fly more carefully

and they still evade and have more health

And theres 3 of them...

Inspiring recruit might solve the stress problem for Fenn Rau soon enough in many lists, and actually in a mindlink list his stress problem ain't that big. A K-Turn or T-Roll is nice and dandy, but doing a green 2-turn and boosting afterwards gets you nearly completely around as well. If you did not approach head one you might as well already have arc again on your target.

On Top of that has old man rau still old teroch to compensate if Rau gets stressed. Someone always gonna generate focus for the whole group. Stress Arcs are super annoying, because they make everything more complicated, but they are not shutting down a mindlink list.

the thing with Inspiring recruits is that it is super niche

literally only rebel r3-a2 puts out the stress that inspiring does anything against, while more common stuff (which is only asajj) doesn't

you will basically never see it unless you build a list around it (ie inspiring Cassian with Stresshog and PA Poe is really fun), and even if you do it won't stop Rau from being unable to k-turn/t-roll behind the ARCs. Plus, since Rau can't evade and has no shields, those aux arcs can really tear into him

stress' big advantage is it basically shuts off attacks made against you for at least one round from the ship you target, because you got ass arcs and they don't

against defenders, stress' big advantage is that it shuts off stacking focus with evades so you have a chance of doing any damage (and also cuts off some of the damage the defenders would otherwise deal if they had a focus token)

The bomber is both the strongest and the most vulnerable ship in that list. He'd get one homing missile off and then he'd probably be double stressed and/or dead. I might use that missile to help kill Biggs - or stay out of range until Biggs is dead and be a real threat against the others - because then you would have 2 healthy defenders against the 2 ARCs.

And then a typical defender player will lose due to overconfidence - an expert one, against an expert ARC player, would be interesting.

I've used this to my advantage in matches against people who are pretty good. My approach is usually a V or funnel, with the Defenders getting into the middle quickly (against most squads, I know sometimes you want to play slow a bit), while the third ship hangs back a bit. It tends to be a sort of "heads I win, tails you lose" scenario because people who try to rush the bomber end up extremely exposed, while people who dogfight the vanguard Defenders aren't usually at an angle where they can suddenly turn in on the bomber enough to do the range dance where you're out of range, then suddenly at 1 so he can't use his ordnance.

against defenders, stress' big advantage is that it shuts off stacking focus with evades so you have a chance of doing any damage (and also cuts off some of the damage the defenders would otherwise deal if they had a focus token)

That's the main reason I'm starting to really like Wired on them, everyone expects you to shed stress as soon as possible, and they REALLY don't expect you to plow through a debris cloud on purpose.

At least 3 homings to have any nonbullshit chance of one rounding an arc

Nonbullshit meaning no 3 damage major explosion into direct hits

The chances youll kill an arc with one bomber before the arcs kill your bomber are about as much as lightning frying your opponent on the spot on a sunny day, indoors

Pretty sure you can run 3 wired x7 glaives with potential steele or vess swap ins.

Got a chance to test my Wired Glaives tonight. They did quite well, even in the match that I lost. In the second game I took the Mk. II engines off and they actually did even better. I gave myself stress early on in the match, then let it ride there for most of the game. It works really well for a few reasons: People don't expect you to slow play an /x7, so your opponent tends to spoil their approach, and it's not a token that can be stripped so Old Teroch can't take it away from you, and it's good when you're taking multiple attacks in a round because fast maneuvers still grant your evade. In one game I intentionally let a Glaive get his 4-k blocked by Nera because it was the only straight maneuver I could take that would keep the stress. So i got my token, then got rerolls on my range 1 attack on Biggs, as well as the defense against Biggs' own attack. Dealt a crit and 2 hits (so he couldn't use his droid to knock it down to 2 hits, because it doesn't affect crits), and in return I lost... 1 shield. It also worked nicely against the TLT in the list because I got at least some defense mitigation on every attack in the round. You trade stability once for a potential for favorable variance, but it makes the Defender oddly immune or resistant to a lot of anti-Defender tactics. However, you can pretty much kiss your barrel rolls goodbye.

I definitely need more time learning to fly these suckers.

At least 3 homings to have any nonbullshit chance of one rounding an arc

Nonbullshit meaning no 3 damage major explosion into direct hits

The chances youll kill an arc with one bomber before the arcs kill your bomber are about as much as lightning frying your opponent on the spot on a sunny day, indoors

Pretty sure you can run 3 wired x7 glaives with potential steele or vess swap ins.

Got a chance to test my Wired Glaives tonight. They did quite well, even in the match that I lost. In the second game I took the Mk. II engines off and they actually did even better. I gave myself stress early on in the match, then let it ride there for most of the game. It works really well for a few reasons: People don't expect you to slow play an /x7, so your opponent tends to spoil their approach, and it's not a token that can be stripped so Old Teroch can't take it away from you, and it's good when you're taking multiple attacks in a round because fast maneuvers still grant your evade. In one game I intentionally let a Glaive get his 4-k blocked by Nera because it was the only straight maneuver I could take that would keep the stress. So i got my token, then got rerolls on my range 1 attack on Biggs, as well as the defense against Biggs' own attack. Dealt a crit and 2 hits (so he couldn't use his droid to knock it down to 2 hits, because it doesn't affect crits), and in return I lost... 1 shield. It also worked nicely against the TLT in the list because I got at least some defense mitigation on every attack in the round. You trade stability once for a potential for favorable variance, but it makes the Defender oddly immune or resistant to a lot of anti-Defender tactics. However, you can pretty much kiss your barrel rolls goodbye.

I definitely need more time learning to fly these suckers.

You need to be careful with Tail Gunner ARCs, though. Wired gets more effective the more dice you're throwing, so when Tail Gunner strips away one defense die, your chance for positive variance decreases rather steeply.

I would say that Defenders can do rather well with being stressed, and wired really helps make that even better. Even when you're not stressed, you can take a focus token. However, as you said, you're basically never barrel rolling, and one way or another your dial becomes even more predictable, whether you wanna keep stress or get rid of it. If you want to keep stress, the only maneuvers you can make are banks, 3 turns, and 4K. You have a grand total of 9 advantageous maneuvers, with 5 more you CAN make but dont want to. A veteran player will capitalize on that. Your absolute worst possible matchup might be Norra/Biggs/Thane. You have extremely limited options for getting out of both arcs, you can't even shoot at Norra or Thane until Biggs is dead, and for every shot you make Thane gets even more powerful on his attack. Not only that, but Tail Gunner will reduce the effectiveness of wired. Not completely of course, but it will make a difference. You're going to have a very hard time keeping your defenders alive past fully-modded Norra AND fully-modded Thane, and, with your limited dial, you're also going to have a very hard time outflanking them, which Defenders already have a hard time doing.