The ARC can physically dodge (re arc dodge) the Defender's hits

The only pure combat ARCs are Thane (far cheaper than a defender; shouldn't put up the same fight) and Norra, who can either tank for days or dance with bb8

Norra with a tail gunner won't have much issue with defender agility; with bb8 she'll have little issue arc dodging the obvious Ks while applying her rear arc

The fact that defenders are far more effective at high speeds while the ARC is more effective at low gives both ships vastly different areas of strength, which will make it a manuever war more often than not. If you can stick near a defender with bb8 rolls,you won't have much to worry about

Bray and Shara aren't really combat craft (they're a stress hog and jank support respectively)

Col. Vessery
Lone Wolf
Tie/D
Ion Cannon
Stealth Device

43pt, giving you true double tap with rerolls on both = 4(5) attack dice, and ion control. 4 agility dice with 1 reroll (....almost autothrusters), and if supported by the Emperor, and that saved focus, never gets hit. He is a born ARC-170 HUNTER.

kinda feel like Lone Wolf is a waste if you only have it for defense. Vessery should always have a TL on his target so the offensive reroll is pointless.

And people severely underestimate how hard it is to get Lone Wolf off. I see people constantly just barely in range2 of friendlies lol

2die attacks against 3agi and an evade/focus stack. Defender can reliably dodge those hits

With agility 2.....remember the risk of Tail Gunner, if you've equipped that way.

Worst case, Thane with R2-D6, Expose and Tail Gunner can be putting a 3 dice, sort-of-focused attack with a target lock against agility 2. Suddenly the defender doesn't look so unhittable.

I think the defender has the edge here. The ARC-170 has awesome stress options - but so much of the defender is non-action-dependent (free evade tokens, free target locks, white K-turns). It's **** hard to hit, and pound for pound, the ARC doesn't have much more firepower than an X-wing.

Super regen Norra (C3po and r2-d2 ptl) that can get 3 guaranteed damage cancels a turn?

Three? I get C-3PO for 1 and R2 for the other. Where's the third?

Norra ability

Toss your offensive mods but you basically can't ever die 1v1

TL + Focus. Spend TL for focus defense die, focus it.

People are hardfixed on the uber regen build. I really dont see it working unless it becomes a 1on1. Which if i see that build i am diving for her throat asap to avoid the potential 1on1

That, or make **** sure i have Outmaneuver or Tractor defenders remaining. No agi, no c3p0.

Outmanuever means your only chance to put PS is brath

And you NEED to out PS because k turning behind it won't be enough (crafty bugger put another arc there)

Gunning for her first is literally impossible with Biggs

It's a powerful set up

Norra ability

Toss your offensive mods but you basically can't ever die 1v1

Omega Leader.

I know, not the subject of this thread, but I do love to see people investing heavily in defensive mods. :V

So i procket Vessery, and shoot at him with both Biggs and Norra, and because he's not an X7 defender, he's going to die.

Half of what you said was reasonable, but then we got here. How did you manage to get into range 1 of a ship with a whit 4k with Jake on the first or second round of shooting while still being in range 1 of Biggs? You are presenting a solution to a hypothetical where the solution assumes that you are a perfect pilot and the your opponent has the strategic mind of a 5 year old.

/D Vessery will ion this thing off the board is he doesn't outright kill it first.

You'd think so. Norra w/ C3P0, PTL, and R2-D2 has a very good chance to dodge the first ion cannon attack; all she has to do is roll a focus. From there it's primary damage, which Norra can regen next round. Then Vessery is either in Norra's front arc because they're still jousting, or, he's in her rear arc because he K-Turned, so no matter what, Norra can still shoot him. And what about the rest of Norra's squad? Go on, focus on the tankiest ship in the list. If you can. If i ran her with Biggs, you can't even shoot at her until Biggs is dead. By then, Biggs, Norra, and Jake have probably crippled or destroyed Vessery by that point. One on One? TIE/D Vessery wins. But with a full squad, Vessery doesn't scare Norra one bit. Not even the rest of your squad scares her. Jake can easily outmaneuver your list and dump prockets into the target of his choice, Biggs w/ R4-D6 and IA says that "no matter what you shoot at me, i'm going to live. Go on. Shoot at me. Your primary weapons can only do 2 damage max. And if that goes to hull, i'll just IA it away. I'm going to be around till round 2 of shooting. That way Norra here can have alllll the time with you she wants." So i procket Vessery, and shoot at him with both Biggs and Norra, and because he's not an X7 defender, he's going to die. Then i only have 2 defenders to worry about. And this is before Biggs is even dead. K-Turn your defenders? Cool, i can still shoot out of Norra's rear arc. Which is effectively a 3 dice primary.

The defender will not be alone. I will almost always be running inquisitor with Ves for perfect synergy. As for the rest of my squad if I am going against 1 agi ships I would take some sweet two dicers like some generic FO's because they are really solid or maybe some academies for blocking. Biggs doesn't scare me one bit. Defenders will suck all the paint off his house and give his family a permanent orange Afro(extra credit it if you get the reference). All this isn't to say I think the ARC is bad. I am personally going to like it with its Astro+crew combo but the defender is TIP of the TOP tier and they aren't scared.

kinda feel like Lone Wolf is a waste if you only have it for defense. Vessery should always have a TL on his target so the offensive reroll is pointless.

And people severely underestimate how hard it is to get Lone Wolf off. I see people constantly just barely in range2 of friendlies lol

No, Lone Wolf is a necessity on a defender, and is worth it for the added defence reroll alone. When facing multiple attackers and to witness that reroll comming through again and again is so glorious.

Furthermore, you will not have target locks on all the enemy ships, especially not facing a swarm, and there Lone Wolf will add that flexibilty/insurrance you need.

And No, not difficult to get Lone Wolf to trigger in a 2-3 ships build...if you know how to fly.

Arguing about what will happen between squads in a game is 100% pointless. 1v1 battles have enough variables that the results can sometimes surprise you, but full squad v squad battles are so dependent on deployment and maneuvers that it's almost impossible to tell who will win.

Arguing about what will happen between squads in a game is 100% pointless. 1v1 battles have enough variables that the results can sometimes surprise you, but full squad v squad battles are so dependent on deployment and maneuvers that it's almost impossible to tell who will win.

Unless it's an entire squad of naked HWK-290's then we can all agree.

Norra ability

Toss your offensive mods but you basically can't ever die 1v1

Omega Leader.

I know, not the subject of this thread, but I do love to see people investing heavily in defensive mods. :V

I love Omega Leader, but his abity is a catch all for everything (including defenders) that are still going to see tons of play

And defenders can't do a **** thing about him, unlike r2d2 who doesn't care

Again LOVE omega L but his main selling point is how awesome he is for 26 points; not how he just autowi s v anything expensive and mod dependent

Arguing about what will happen between squads in a game is 100% pointless. 1v1 battles have enough variables that the results can sometimes surprise you, but full squad v squad battles are so dependent on deployment and maneuvers that it's almost impossible to tell who will win.

Unless it's an entire squad of naked HWK-290's then we can all agree.

Conceded.

Arguing about what will happen between squads in a game is 100% pointless. 1v1 battles have enough variables that the results can sometimes surprise you, but full squad v squad battles are so dependent on deployment and maneuvers that it's almost impossible to tell who will win.

NO it is not 100% pointless!!! We are all talking about the average here, OFCOURSE, there is going to be alot of variation. But it is no different than discussing 3 attack dice vs 2 attack dice, on average 3 is better, but sure you can roll all blanks and the guy with 2 can roll 2 crits, or be a better pilot so the guy with 3 nevers gets arc, that is beside the point.

I come here, to this great post with this interesting title, because I enjoy these discussions, both participating in them, but also reading other peoples arguments - if you do not, "Biophysical", feel free to not participate!!!

Norra ability

Toss your offensive mods but you basically can't ever die 1v1

Omega Leader.

I know, not the subject of this thread, but I do love to see people investing heavily in defensive mods. :V

I love Omega Leader, but his abity is a catch all for everything (including defenders) that are still going to see tons of play

And defenders can't do a **** thing about him, unlike r2d2 who doesn't care

Again LOVE omega L but his main selling point is how awesome he is for 26 points; not how he just autowi s v anything expensive and mod dependent

That's the real beauty of imperials right now. They have a nice pool of awesome for the points pilots. Soontir, Vader, Inquis, OL, Vessery, Ryad, Tomax and probably more I am forgetting. The rebels don't have the supporting cast they used to have.

Rebels have a huge cast

They just all got scared off by torp scouts

not to mention most of their good builds involve unique upgrades. Meaning its a bit more difficult to maximize a strat when a ~30pt ship is loaded with 3 unique cards and the only cards that are similar are overpriced or suck to begin with lol.

Imperial aces all behave the same, with their pilot ability being the only real difference. Every single one of them are high agi token stacking arc dodgers, with Defenders being the only oddball but still similar.

Every rebel ship you see will perform different, and often they dont clash well. Some pilots demand a certain unique card and would be awesome to have them both, but you cant because theyre terrible without that card and one isnt going to have it.

Aside from Palp, Mara Jade, or the actual pilot i cant think of a single Imperial unique people use commonly. But on the same token, i never see a rebel list without at least 3 uniques and usually more.

Rebs don't rely on the same upgrades though

For example, if the points allowed you could actually fly 3 rebel regenerators without overlapping upgrades at all

R5p9 Poe

C3po Miranda

And r2d2 corran

R2d2 corran and r5p9 Poe actually came second at the last worlds

Unique upgrade dependence isn't as much a problem as the fact that the game just favors green dice mods over anything now that red dice have gotten so strong

If guaranteed damage became flavor of the month, Wed have the exact opposite problem

Arguing about what will happen between squads in a game is 100% pointless. 1v1 battles have enough variables that the results can sometimes surprise you, but full squad v squad battles are so dependent on deployment and maneuvers that it's almost impossible to tell who will win.

NO it is not 100% pointless!!! We are all talking about the average here, OFCOURSE, there is going to be alot of variation. But it is no different than discussing 3 attack dice vs 2 attack dice, on average 3 is better, but sure you can roll all blanks and the guy with 2 can roll 2 crits, or be a better pilot so the guy with 3 nevers gets arc, that is beside the point.

I come here, to this great post with this interesting title, because I enjoy these discussions, both participating in them, but also reading other peoples arguments - if you do not, "Biophysical", feel free to not participate!!!

Okay, let me be more specific. Saying things like "This will happen, so this ship will die" which is then countered by "no this will happen", which can then be countered by "then this ship will do this" are not very useful ways to discuss things, because setting up advantageous positions is the whole point of playing the game, and not something that is well communicated in conversation. It's akin to "Soontir Fel will never lose to X, Y, or X because of arc dodging". Saying maneuvers happen in a certain way is futile, because the opponent always has a say in what happens.

Arguing about what will happen between squads in a game is 100% pointless. 1v1 battles have enough variables that the results can sometimes surprise you, but full squad v squad battles are so dependent on deployment and maneuvers that it's almost impossible to tell who will win.

NO it is not 100% pointless!!! We are all talking about the average here, OFCOURSE, there is going to be alot of variation. But it is no different than discussing 3 attack dice vs 2 attack dice, on average 3 is better, but sure you can roll all blanks and the guy with 2 can roll 2 crits, or be a better pilot so the guy with 3 nevers gets arc, that is beside the point.

I come here, to this great post with this interesting title, because I enjoy these discussions, both participating in them, but also reading other peoples arguments - if you do not, "Biophysical", feel free to not participate!!!

Good Lord, bro, too many exclamation marks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To answer the question in the OP, I think it's very hard to match the two ships up. ARC is probably better off against the Defender than most AGI1 fighters are, simply because it has the rear arc, but it seems likely, to me, that the control and damage output of by most TIE/Ds make it very, very difficult for an ARC to come out on top. This weakness is lessened if the Defender and the ARC are lined up nose to nose, because the Defender will take a weaker shot, often at Range 1 when it flips behind ARC. If the Defender catches the ARC in the flank, the ARC is hosed. If they're nose to nose, The Defender still probably wins, but has some HP gone. Now, the Defender costs a lot more for equivalent PS, so this result isn't a surprise or an injustice.

An R2D2 ARC will be pretty screwed against Ion Defenders, but can probably tank an x7 Defender for a long time. R3A2 also helps against x7s, as it will diminish their attacking power by denying a Focus (Ryad excepted). It's probably also hosed against TIE/Ds, because their damage is less action dependent.

You know, it's funny

These two ships are almost exact opposites in every way

We have the Defender, a fresh top of the line ultra high performance craft with Sonic the hedgehog's approach to maneuvering with two sets red lower speed turns

Then the ARC, an antiquated clunker kept relevant through effective hip replacement retrofits that moves like tar in a drain pipe with a promised set of high speed red manuevers

It's hard to find two ships more diametrically opposed than the Defender and ARC

They're possessed of such different design philosophies, you'd think someone would make a thread about how they face off against each other.

kinda feel like Lone Wolf is a waste if you only have it for defense. Vessery should always have a TL on his target so the offensive reroll is pointless.

And people severely underestimate how hard it is to get Lone Wolf off. I see people constantly just barely in range2 of friendlies lol

Outmaneuver, on the other hand... with that Ion Cannon, it's almost like you're getting half of Tractor Beam for free.