So, since we've been given a decent bit of information on the upcoming wave IX ship, the ARC-170, I think it'd be neat to go over a semi-new format of discussion. Take what we know of the new ship and its upgrades, and then try to devise what strengths and weaknesses two ships have against each other. I'm very curious to see how people think the new Defender hotness stands up to such a formidable and fairly versatile ship. One brings speed and vicious maneuverability, the other brings a rear arc and a plethora of possible ship and squad builds. So, instead of simply discussing a single ship and its stats and pilots, we should also think about various archetypal builds (or theoretically archetypal ones) to see how these ships would fare against one another on the table.

(Would Biophysical please report to the hanger bay...)

I have two things to say. First, great thread title. 10/10, would read again.

Secondly, I've been flying the x7 defender in my list, and the Countess has been by far the most versatile ship. She really brings the pain, and is hard as hell to kill. So my money's on the defender, though it does cost a bit more in points.

Rexlar

Predator

Ion Cannon

TIE/D

Autowin.

The low agility of the Arc would make it extremely vulnerable to Ion, and even though it has the back arc it's still only 2 dice, granted with Tailgunner it increases the chances of getting a hit through, but once the ARC is ionized it would not be hard to stay out of the ARC's arc. *snicker*

Until we see its dial I think a Defender would tear it apart.

Rexlar

Predator

Ion Cannon

TIE/D

Autowin.

The low agility of the Arc would make it extremely vulnerable to Ion, and even though it has the back arc it's still only 2 dice, granted with Tailgunner it increases the chances of getting a hit through, but once the ARC is ionized it would not be hard to stay out of the ARC's arc. *snicker*

Until we see its dial I think a Defender would tear it apart.

Yes but remember, we're factoring in entire squads here too. So tailing the ARC might just get you ripped apart by other ships. You'll also have trouble staying behind it for more than a round, as it will be moving slower than you.

/D Vessery will ion this thing off the board is he doesn't outright kill it first.

/D Vessery will ion this thing off the board is he doesn't outright kill it first.

I think I know one pilot who 'beggs' to differ.

/D Vessery will ion this thing off the board is he doesn't outright kill it first.

I think I know one pilot who 'beggs' to differ.

You mean Ezra, the space-alladin begger?

/D Vessery will ion this thing off the board is he doesn't outright kill it first.

You'd think so. Norra w/ C3P0, PTL, and R2-D2 has a very good chance to dodge the first ion cannon attack; all she has to do is roll a focus. From there it's primary damage, which Norra can regen next round. Then Vessery is either in Norra's front arc because they're still jousting, or, he's in her rear arc because he K-Turned, so no matter what, Norra can still shoot him. And what about the rest of Norra's squad? Go on, focus on the tankiest ship in the list. If you can. If i ran her with Biggs, you can't even shoot at her until Biggs is dead. By then, Biggs, Norra, and Jake have probably crippled or destroyed Vessery by that point. One on One? TIE/D Vessery wins. But with a full squad, Vessery doesn't scare Norra one bit. Not even the rest of your squad scares her. Jake can easily outmaneuver your list and dump prockets into the target of his choice, Biggs w/ R4-D6 and IA says that "no matter what you shoot at me, i'm going to live. Go on. Shoot at me. Your primary weapons can only do 2 damage max. And if that goes to hull, i'll just IA it away. I'm going to be around till round 2 of shooting. That way Norra here can have alllll the time with you she wants." So i procket Vessery, and shoot at him with both Biggs and Norra, and because he's not an X7 defender, he's going to die. Then i only have 2 defenders to worry about. And this is before Biggs is even dead. K-Turn your defenders? Cool, i can still shoot out of Norra's rear arc. Which is effectively a 3 dice primary.

/D Vessery will ion this thing off the board is he doesn't outright kill it first.

I think I know one pilot who 'beggs' to differ.

You mean Ezra, the space-alladin begger?

Sure, why not? I don't actually know Rebels much, so I'm sorta counting on other people to defend the ARC.

Heh. Norra's ARC. Hhhaaaaaahhh...

/D Vessery will ion this thing off the board is he doesn't outright kill it first.

You'd think so. Norra w/ C3P0, PTL, and R2-D2 has a very good chance to dodge the first ion cannon attack; all she has to do is roll a focus. From there it's primary damage, which Norra can regen next round. Then Vessery is either in Norra's front arc because they're still jousting, or, he's in her rear arc because he K-Turned, so no matter what, Norra can still shoot him. And what about the rest of Norra's squad? Go on, focus on the tankiest ship in the list. If you can. If i ran her with Biggs, you can't even shoot at her until Biggs is dead. By then, Biggs, Norra, and Jake have probably crippled or destroyed Vessery by that point. One on One? TIE/D Vessery wins. But with a full squad, Vessery doesn't scare Norra one bit. Not even the rest of your squad scares her.

And what happens if the Defender approaches from the side? (my favored angle of engagement)

you'll have to define what them stacking against each other actually means

see, a defender will just kick your ass in a joust, but the ARC's a little bit weirder

if you go Bray r3-a2 gunner, for example, it doesn't really matter how much damage he does when the stress neuters your favorite ace

only Thane's really a straight up bruiser, and the dude is cheap at 26 base (honestly needing no upgrades; just dare people to shoot his friends and enjoy your fully modified offense)

Shara's...ugh

and then there's Norra....but which Norra? bb-8 rebel arc-dodging (re: intentional bump) norra with tail gunner and a crazy butt shot? Super regen Norra (C3po and r2-d2 ptl) that can get 3 guaranteed damage cancels a turn? ps 9 stress norra with KK and normal action target lock?

the ships perform fairly different functions

/D Vessery will ion this thing off the board is he doesn't outright kill it first.

I think I know one pilot who 'beggs' to differ.

it's "biggs to differ" man, come on

/D Vessery will ion this thing off the board is he doesn't outright kill it first.

You'd think so. Norra w/ C3P0, PTL, and R2-D2 has a very good chance to dodge the first ion cannon attack; all she has to do is roll a focus. From there it's primary damage, which Norra can regen next round. Then Vessery is either in Norra's front arc because they're still jousting, or, he's in her rear arc because he K-Turned, so no matter what, Norra can still shoot him. And what about the rest of Norra's squad? Go on, focus on the tankiest ship in the list. If you can. If i ran her with Biggs, you can't even shoot at her until Biggs is dead. By then, Biggs, Norra, and Jake have probably crippled or destroyed Vessery by that point. One on One? TIE/D Vessery wins. But with a full squad, Vessery doesn't scare Norra one bit. Not even the rest of your squad scares her.

And what happens if the Defender approaches from the side? (my favored angle of engagement)

I bank into you? The board isn't blacked out until you get into range of shooting. I'm going to see you coming. I'll just bank into you. Hell, if that's not possible, i can still just bank away from you. From there, you can't K-Turn without giving me a shot out the front or back. You'd have to turn away and turn back in, and by that time i can just bank towards you again. And i'll have regened any damage with R2-D2 by then.

/D Vessery will ion this thing off the board is he doesn't outright kill it first.

You'd think so. Norra w/ C3P0, PTL, and R2-D2 has a very good chance to dodge the first ion cannon attack; all she has to do is roll a focus. From there it's primary damage, which Norra can regen next round. Then Vessery is either in Norra's front arc because they're still jousting, or, he's in her rear arc because he K-Turned, so no matter what, Norra can still shoot him. And what about the rest of Norra's squad? Go on, focus on the tankiest ship in the list. If you can. If i ran her with Biggs, you can't even shoot at her until Biggs is dead. By then, Biggs, Norra, and Jake have probably crippled or destroyed Vessery by that point. One on One? TIE/D Vessery wins. But with a full squad, Vessery doesn't scare Norra one bit. Not even the rest of your squad scares her.

And what happens if the Defender approaches from the side? (my favored angle of engagement)

I bank into you? The board isn't blacked out until you get into range of shooting. I'm going to see you coming. I'll just bank into you. Hell, if that's not possible, i can still just bank away from you. From there, you can't K-Turn without giving me a shot out the front or back. You'd have to turn away and turn back in, and by that time i can just bank towards you again. And i'll have regened any damage with R2-D2 by then.

See? That's the kind of thinking I like to hear... I can't wait for these ships to hit the table.

/D PTL Rexler with TB and mk.ii will ruin it's day, once that single agility is gone rex will pile on the crits fast.

X7 Rexler does the same but a bit slower.

Hell HLC Rexler of old would wreck it.

It's a one agility small fighter and they've never threatened defenders.

So you are all talking about how the extra ships in the rebel squad will keep norra alive long enough for her to obliterate the defender. What most of you are neglecting is that the Defender has buddies too. For instance i like flying 2 Glaives with Carnor. And any squint player worth their salt will be able to stay out of most of your arcs 60-70 percent of the time. Plus Carnor laughs at Norra's ability. Extra focus result? Only works if you can spend a focus to turn it to a hit/evade. Plus the Glaives have juke/x7.

Now not saying that the ARC isn't good. It looks pretty solid (just withing there were generics). But against the super jouster that is the Defender it would die pretty fast. The only thing that would keep it alive is something more threatening on the board (as is the case with the G-1A.). While Biggs is nice i think he works best when defending more than 2 ships (unless you really need him for uboats). Mainly cause he only lives to die and after that there goes 1/3 of your firepower. Personally i would be more scared of her flying with 3 crack As or Wes and Jake.

Essentially, it boils down to 'the ARC is still basically just a b-wing and b-wings by and large suck right now'. Nothing has changed (yet) in the meta to change that sad fact.

I think the ARC is better than the Bwing in several ways.

1. Native crew and astro slots

2. MOAR greens (only 2 more but still more is more)

3. Shoots backwards with a (almost) free crit

4. Regen (somebody wants to say "beep beep whoop")

Upsides of the Bwing

1. Do a BARREL ROLL

2. Systems slot (for those that remeber the adv. sensors Bwing *cringe)

3. MOAR Sheilds for the crit stopping nonsense.

So all in all i think the ARC has better flexibility than the Bwing. And better consistent firepower.

I think the ARC is better than the Bwing in several ways.

1. Native crew and astro slots

2. MOAR greens (only 2 more but still more is more)

3. Shoots backwards with a (almost) free crit

4. Regen (somebody wants to say "beep beep whoop")

Upsides of the Bwing

1. Do a BARREL ROLL

2. Systems slot (for those that remeber the adv. sensors Bwing *cringe)

3. MOAR Sheilds for the crit stopping nonsense.

So all in all i think the ARC has better flexibility than the Bwing. And better consistent firepower.

I don't deny that it's a better b wing. But it's still a high-hull low-agi ship in a meta where high-hull low-agi melts to two out of the three strongest list archetypes.

I think a better title for this match up would have been:

My son cam beat up you retrofitted grandpa!

The ARC is more than a B-wing because it has a native crew slot, a rear arc, and the extra hit point. It's also skewed to hull over shields, which is important in the era of Plasma Torpedoes. Also, Astromechs add a lot of utility. Who knows how the dial will affect things.

4fox beat me to it. That's what happens when I forget to click "post" until 45 minutes later.

I personally think that one thing about the ARC that can't be discounted easily is the crew/astromech combo. You don't even need to take a title to do it like the B-Wing, and there are lots of potent alchemies to be discovered when you can mix those two upgrades. This seems like it will be a very "shenanigans-y" ship to fly.

/D Vessery will ion this thing off the board is he doesn't outright kill it first.

I think I know one pilot who 'beggs' to differ.

You mean Ezra, the space-alladin begger?

Sure, why not? I don't actually know Rebels much, so I'm sorta counting on other people to defend the ARC.

Heh. Norra's ARC. Hhhaaaaaahhh...

Oh I plan on buying arc 170s two, by 2, by 2, by 2.....

So you are all talking about how the extra ships in the rebel squad will keep norra alive long enough for her to obliterate the defender. What most of you are neglecting is that the Defender has buddies too. For instance i like flying 2 Glaives with Carnor. And any squint player worth their salt will be able to stay out of most of your arcs 60-70 percent of the time. Plus Carnor laughs at Norra's ability. Extra focus result? Only works if you can spend a focus to turn it to a hit/evade.

Technical you can re-roll the focus result with predator ^_°

You know, it's funny

These two ships are almost exact opposites in every way

We have the Defender, a fresh top of the line ultra high performance craft with Sonic the hedgehog's approach to maneuvering with two sets red lower speed turns

Then the ARC, an antiquated clunker kept relevant through effective hip replacement retrofits that moves like tar in a drain pipe with a promised set of high speed red manuevers

It's hard to find two ships more diametrically opposed than the Defender and ARC

i see the defender flying circles around the ARC and not really caring about the rear arc.

2die attacks against 3agi and an evade/focus stack. Defender can reliably dodge those hits, the ARC cant reliably dodge the defender's hits.

TIE/D with Tractor almost guarantees you lose your agi. No more C3P0 for you. You can technically spend you TL to get a focus still but that means nothing without a focus token. Once your agi is at 0, primary gun will rip the ARC apart.

Only thing the ARC has going for it is eventually the Defender HAS to pass it, which it would probably either just disengage or 4k for a face-to-face attack. ARCs are bound to have a 1straight, Defenders cant do that so eventually they pass the ARC. Question is how badly is the ARC hurt from 2 rounds of a defender behind it?