Someone made a comment over on a Punisher thread that the Punisher is a "Heavy Bomber". That got me thinking. Why do we want every ship to be tournament worthy? When you think about real life (can't believe I'm using that term to talk about a sci-fi game) uses of ships like the Punisher, they would be held for very specific roles and used in conjunction with other units in potentially large operations. Some ships just don't lend themselves to 100 point games, against a wide variety of opponents. But they shine in other styles of play. Say against epic ships in the case of the Punisher. I can understand people wanting their favorite ship to see more use, or more ships to see general use. But I think there is room for very specialized ships in this game without having to make them all tournament worthy.

Well said! I completely agree!

Every ship should have at least one playable version in standard play. It aids in promoting it to others when it gets seen and it also makes the purchase of said ship far more palatable to anyone one the bubble about buying one.

so I can play every ship at tournaments

except interceptors

I don't give a rats ass how amazing soontir is, those ships take to my rolls like slugs do to salt

I don't see how punishers are better against epic ships than against normal ships. Most people say "this ship is made more for epic play" but don't really explain how in a convincing way. There are some changes in ship valuation in 300 points but the punisher doesn't particularly benefit from it.

I'd be afraid to take a Punisher into epic. What's that? Fifty points at range five with two green vs my four reds? And it'll eat me if it gets close? Fire all the guns. SPLAT.

Though I suppose if you take more than one, attrition wins out...safety in numbers and all that...

I think if all ships are playable in tournaments it shows there is a nice balance. This can be just as important in fun play. Nobody wants to play against triple scouts in fun play. (Generalization. I'm also aware some people enjoy pain...)

Panzeh- The Xwing remark in epic is surprisingly on the money. They supply lots of red, move across a 6x3 map much better than most Rebel fighters and are mid-range price by comparison. Bwings give you the dice and more health but on the larger map they can't keep up. If the fight is close, yeah, great. Interceptors can really make use of the space to circle around though!

I think in the right hands every ship can be competitive. It depends on the synergies you create and the pilot behind it. At the same token, someone can take Soontir and fall flat and die all the time (me) regardless how great of a pilot/ship he is in "standard" configuration.

To maximize diversity.

Probably because a healthy amount of players don't venture in to epic play much and prefer standard 100 point play, and even those who do play epic will likely have more opportunities to play 100 point or at least dogfight play.

No one wants to buy a toy they can only bring out on special occasions. Every toy should be able to be used as often as the player desires, and without worry about it heavily under performing compared to other options.

Or, alternatively, FFG needs to just market the ship as you described. If the Punisher previews had stated "While not a top option in standard 100 point play, the Punisher excels in epic play with its ability to maximize its payload.". I would be totally fine with how the Punisher performs in standard deathmatch. But as long as they continue to promote all ships that are available for standard deathmatch as options to be considered in that game type, there will be people who are disappointed when ships underperform.

To maximize diversity.

And this, of course.

Panzeh- The Xwing remark in epic is surprisingly on the money. They supply lots of red, move across a 6x3 map much better than most Rebel fighters and are mid-range price by comparison. Bwings give you the dice and more health but on the larger map they can't keep up. If the fight is close, yeah, great. Interceptors can really make use of the space to circle around though!

The X-wing is not much faster than the B-wing- the main advantage is having the 3-turn. You're never really going to need to go that fast in epic play anyway because the coverage that makes aces less appealing also means you don't have to go so far for a decent target.

They should all be tournament worthy because they are options as part of a "Tournament Game"

I've played quite a few epics and getting point b from point a has been big... Particularly since Imperial ships are that much faster again. I'm talking straight line, not turning fights because yes... A Bwing has an Xwing beat there. The generalization that you will never need the speed is untrue. You won't often need the speed, but for my tactics it's nice to have it when I need it.

Not every ship has to be tournament playable, just the ones I like.

The more ships are tournament viable, the more it helps breed better players. Those who know how to play with and against everything that's viable will do better than those who don't. It elevates the state of the game even as it elevates a single ship.

Additionally, everyone has different taste. It's much more satisfying and fun for most people if they can take their favorite ship and win with it, rather than taking whatever's good and winning with it.

They should all be tournament worthy because they are options as part of a "Tournament Game"

Except that X-wing isn't a tournament game. There are many, many people who play it at home on dining room tables, probably more than play in tournaments. X-wing is a Star Wars miniatures game which happens to have a tournament format used by the publisher to promote sales. One look at the available ships and upgrades proves that tournament play isn't the sole focus of game design. There are many upgrades, pilots and ships that rarely see tournament use, as they don't work well in such a ruthlessly efficient environment. They work just fine when rolling dice in a casual dog fight.

I have been playing X-wing for 3 years or so, and I've played in ONE tournament, and while it was a fun experience as a novelty, I don't plan to do so again. I find casual X-wing more enjoyable personally, and I gladly play with ships that are considered non-competitive, like two Scyks escorting Guri, or good old T-65s.

Besides, if X-wing is a tournament game, why do they sell 4 ships high are explicitly NOT tournament legal? You can't use a Raider in your 100 pt squad...

Its not that every ship has to be top-tier list competitive, its more about making every ship at least usable. This is a very competitive game even in causal play, so its really hard to justify bringing a subpar ship unless it has some nifty gimick unique to it or its just really hard to fly but if flown right its just as good as others.

I tend to avoid the palpaces. I bring vader alot but thats because its VADER and tbh hes one of the more milder aces to me, more powerful because PS9 than epic ship/power. Punisher is one of the few ships i literally never use because im investing almost as much as a Decimator for essentially something i can do at ~28pts with a bomber. Few points overpriced is one thing, but ~10? or worse? cant do it.

They should all be tournament worthy because they are options as part of a "Tournament Game"

Except that X-wing isn't a tournament game. There are many, many people who play it at home on dining room tables, probably more than play in tournaments. X-wing is a Star Wars miniatures game which happens to have a tournament format used by the publisher to promote sales. One look at the available ships and upgrades proves that tournament play isn't the sole focus of game design. There are many upgrades, pilots and ships that rarely see tournament use, as they don't work well in such a ruthlessly efficient environment. They work just fine when rolling dice in a casual dog fight.

I have been playing X-wing for 3 years or so, and I've played in ONE tournament, and while it was a fun experience as a novelty, I don't plan to do so again. I find casual X-wing more enjoyable personally, and I gladly play with ships that are considered non-competitive, like two Scyks escorting Guri, or good old T-65s.

Besides, if X-wing is a tournament game, why do they sell 4 ships high are explicitly NOT tournament legal? You can't use a Raider in your 100 pt squad...

X-wing is a Tournament game, regardless of if you play in tournaments or not.

Making something tournament viable doesn't prevent its casual use.

They should all be tournament worthy because they are options as part of a "Tournament Game"

Except that X-wing isn't a tournament game. There are many, many people who play it at home on dining room tables, probably more than play in tournaments. X-wing is a Star Wars miniatures game which happens to have a tournament format used by the publisher to promote sales. One look at the available ships and upgrades proves that tournament play isn't the sole focus of game design. There are many upgrades, pilots and ships that rarely see tournament use, as they don't work well in such a ruthlessly efficient environment. They work just fine when rolling dice in a casual dog fight.

I have been playing X-wing for 3 years or so, and I've played in ONE tournament, and while it was a fun experience as a novelty, I don't plan to do so again. I find casual X-wing more enjoyable personally, and I gladly play with ships that are considered non-competitive, like two Scyks escorting Guri, or good old T-65s.

Besides, if X-wing is a tournament game, why do they sell 4 ships high are explicitly NOT tournament legal? You can't use a Raider in your 100 pt squad...

While there is nothing wrong with a casual environment and simply playing casually, I don't think FFG should ever approach a ship or upgrade in a casual sense.

Think of it this way- Would an amazingly balanced game which made the tournament scene even better harm casual play at all? No. Players would still fly what they want and how they want casually.

But if the game is less balanced because the creators simply say, "Well, it's not a tournament game", then it really harms the tournament scene as overpowering combinations are never put in check, and the competitive scene eventually crumbles and FFG loses players (and money) along the way.

A good example of this would be the Super Smash Brothers series. The second installment of the series, Melee, has a highly successful competitive scene which is still popular today (the game was originally released in the early 2000s). Yet, oddly enough, the creator of the series never intended the game to be played competitively. So, when the next installment, Brawl, was released, he basically released it with a "casual" view towards the series. The high level players of Melee were largely appalled by the game, and soon went back to playing Melee. It may have not harmed sales, but it definitely harmed the longevity of the game. Brawl sees little to no play any longer. Even the most recent installment in the series, Smash 4, while making some steps back towards appealing competitive play, has lower viewership at events than Melee to this day.

Sakurai, the creator of the series, seems to have failed to realize that the tournament scene had no effect on the casual scene. He was so worried about competitive players crushing children's dreams when playing the game that he failed to even realize that those kids would never even be in the same room as those players. He effectively neutered the beautiful complexity of his own game to "even" the playing field to the games own detriment.

So I guess my point is this- There is no reason to approach the game casually when you have a large tournament scene for the game. They would lose an important piece of their audience if they don't focus on top level play balance.

They should all be tournament worthy because they are options as part of a "Tournament Game"

Except that X-wing isn't a tournament game. There are many, many people who play it at home on dining room tables, probably more than play in tournaments. X-wing is a Star Wars miniatures game which happens to have a tournament format used by the publisher to promote sales. One look at the available ships and upgrades proves that tournament play isn't the sole focus of game design. There are many upgrades, pilots and ships that rarely see tournament use, as they don't work well in such a ruthlessly efficient environment. They work just fine when rolling dice in a casual dog fight.

I have been playing X-wing for 3 years or so, and I've played in ONE tournament, and while it was a fun experience as a novelty, I don't plan to do so again. I find casual X-wing more enjoyable personally, and I gladly play with ships that are considered non-competitive, like two Scyks escorting Guri, or good old T-65s.

Besides, if X-wing is a tournament game, why do they sell 4 ships high are explicitly NOT tournament legal? You can't use a Raider in your 100 pt squad...

While there is nothing wrong with a casual environment and simply playing casually, I don't think FFG should ever approach a ship or upgrade in a casual sense.

Think of it this way- Would an amazingly balanced game which made the tournament scene even better harm casual play at all? No. Players would still fly what they want and how they want casually.

But if the game is less balanced because the creators simply say, "Well, it's not a tournament game", then it really harms the tournament scene as overpowering combinations are never put in check, and the competitive scene eventually crumbles and FFG loses players (and money) along the way.

A good example of this would be the Super Smash Brothers series. The second installment of the series, Melee, has a highly successful competitive scene which is still popular today (the game was originally released in the early 2000s). Yet, oddly enough, the creator of the series never intended the game to be played competitively. So, when the next installment, Brawl, was released, he basically released it with a "casual" view towards the series. The high level players of Melee were largely appalled by the game, and soon went back to playing Melee. It may have not harmed sales, but it definitely harmed the longevity of the game. Brawl sees little to no play any longer. Even the most recent installment in the series, Smash 4, while making some steps back towards appealing competitive play, has lower viewership at events than Melee to this day.

Sakurai, the creator of the series, seems to have failed to realize that the tournament scene had no effect on the casual scene. He was so worried about competitive players crushing children's dreams when playing the game that he failed to even realize that those kids would never even be in the same room as those players. He effectively neutered the beautiful complexity of his own game to "even" the playing field to the games own detriment.

So I guess my point is this- There is no reason to approach the game casually when you have a large tournament scene for the game. They would lose an important piece of their audience if they don't focus on top level play balance.

Like the force, and in making your chosen list, there must be balance between competitive play and casual. You need both healthy to grow the game.

They should all be tournament worthy because they are options as part of a "Tournament Game"

Except that X-wing isn't a tournament game. There are many, many people who play it at home on dining room tables, probably more than play in tournaments. X-wing is a Star Wars miniatures game which happens to have a tournament format used by the publisher to promote sales. One look at the available ships and upgrades proves that tournament play isn't the sole focus of game design. There are many upgrades, pilots and ships that rarely see tournament use, as they don't work well in such a ruthlessly efficient environment. They work just fine when rolling dice in a casual dog fight.

I have been playing X-wing for 3 years or so, and I've played in ONE tournament, and while it was a fun experience as a novelty, I don't plan to do so again. I find casual X-wing more enjoyable personally, and I gladly play with ships that are considered non-competitive, like two Scyks escorting Guri, or good old T-65s.

Besides, if X-wing is a tournament game, why do they sell 4 ships high are explicitly NOT tournament legal? You can't use a Raider in your 100 pt squad...

X-wing is a Tournament game, regardless of if you play in tournaments or not.

Making something tournament viable doesn't prevent its casual use.

I apologise that I failed to answer your question about Epic.

There is an Epic tournament set. Its not popular compared to the basic tournament structure.

Epic ships are legal there. They aren't legal in the standard tournament format due to the fact that their comparable price is beyond that of a standard game.

Why shouldn't they be? These things aren't mutually exclusive, you know.

The NEED To WIN WIN WIN at something like a game say of Football or X-WING... yeah that all left me when I left MF'n-high-school.

Well why not? Because you split the divide between two groups of people even further. Casual play is fun, competitive, is well, competitive, but both share the same basic game, and can be interchanged at any time. Also once FFG starts dictating what is legal and what is not, the game loses some of its charm at tournaments, because you can't fly what you want to. The guy that won the regional with XXXXZ could not have done that if the meta was dictated to not allow generic T-65's, Or the T-65 at all, because its an "old" ship, or the Z-95 because it's current incarnation in X-wing is from old EU material. But he flew with what he felt like flying that day.

I'm not saying that you'll win any tournaments with the Punisher, or the T-65, but having the freedom to fly whatever you want is part of this games charm.

So yes every ship should have some thought put into it for competitive play, but also casual as well.

When you think about real life (can't believe I'm using that term to talk about a sci-fi game) uses of ships like the Punisher, they would be held for very specific roles and used in conjunction with other units in potentially large operations.

Every ship in the game should be tournament viable assuming it is properly costed.