B-Wings overcosted?

You should refer to the BBBBZ era in your history books...

Remember when that was competitive and b wings were playable?

Aha, we heard that already a hundred times

make "rebel only -3 pts torp refit"

Why rebel only? Small ship only would be good, an apply also to Starviper. But -3 pts is way too much. -1 would be ok. fielding 5 T65 seems fine to me

21 pts was the reasoning behind it

to make_sure_5_are_not_taken_at_once

I'm just being sarcastic. the "make rebels great again" threads are like rain, they come and go, and sometimes there are whole "wet seasons" with such threads pooling around.

people are nostalgic about times when rebels were top-dog. Biggz walking the dogs, BBBB, then the times of Phantom menace came, rebels still being VIHan users who was a 146% matchup

Rebels are fat and full of upgrade slots.

every upgrade slot is +1-2-3 pts

I don't know what Wave you're living in, but pricing hasnt been done like that since Wave 2 . FFG quickly realized that pricing for upgrades is dumb as hell. Namely because if those upgrade slots go unfilled, you're spending points for something you're not using, AND it makes actually filling those slots harder because you have less points to work with as a result.

Certain upgrade slots and combinations of upgrade slots will cost points, and you can't just have a ton of upgrade slots without spending the points for them, but each upgrade slot is NOT in fact worth a point each. Warpman, you continue to astound me just how little you actually understand how the game works.

Aha, we heard that already a hundred times

make "rebel only -3 pts torp refit"

Why rebel only? Small ship only would be good, an apply also to Starviper. But -3 pts is way too much. -1 would be ok. fielding 5 T65 seems fine to me

21 pts was the reasoning behind it

to make_sure_5_are_not_taken_at_once

I'm just being sarcastic. the "make rebels great again" threads are like rain, they come and go, and sometimes there are whole "wet seasons" with such threads pooling around.

people are nostalgic about times when rebels were top-dog. Biggz walking the dogs, BBBB, then the times of Phantom menace came, rebels still being VIHan users who was a 146% matchup

So why, then, were Kihraxzs costed at 20 points which allowed players to run 5 of them?

Oooohhh, right, because 5 X-Wings didn't actually turn out to be broken. Which is why you don't ever see 5 Kihraxzs. Because it's not even that 5 X-Wings isn't broken, it's that they're still not even that good.

My biggest beef with points cost is the 1-agility rebel ships

If my count is correct, including all of the announced ships:

Total Ships: Rebels 14, Scum 13 (Including Lancer and Starfighter) and Empire 13.

1-agility or less : Rebels 6, Scum 3, Empire 3.

2-agility: Rebel 6, Scum 6, Empire 4.

3-agility: Rebel 2, Scum 4, Empire 6.

When I saw the 1-Agility on the ARC-170, I knew the main thing I would be buying it for is the upgrade cards:

PS3 Jumpmaster = 25 points 2 attack 360 degrees, 2-agility, 5 hull, 4 shield, 3 actions, EPT, 2x Torpedoes, Crew, Astromech, Illicit

PS3 ARC-170 = 25 points: 2 attack in front and back arc.1-agility, 6 hull, 3 shield, 2 actions, Torpedo, Crew, Astromech.

PS4 Punisher = 23 points: 2 attack front, 1-agility, 6 hull, 3 shield, 3 actions, System, 2x Torps, 2 Missles, 2x Bombs

The ARC has 3 attack from the front and 2+-ish from the back, read the previews before saying it sucks.

My biggest beef with points cost is the 1-agility rebel ships

If my count is correct, including all of the announced ships:

Total Ships: Rebels 14, Scum 13 (Including Lancer and Starfighter) and Empire 13.

1-agility or less : Rebels 6, Scum 3, Empire 3.

2-agility: Rebel 6, Scum 6, Empire 4.

3-agility: Rebel 2, Scum 4, Empire 6.

When I saw the 1-Agility on the ARC-170, I knew the main thing I would be buying it for is the upgrade cards:

PS3 Jumpmaster = 25 points 2 attack 360 degrees, 2-agility, 5 hull, 4 shield, 3 actions, EPT, 2x Torpedoes, Crew, Astromech, Illicit

PS3 ARC-170 = 25 points: 2 attack in front and back arc.1-agility, 6 hull, 3 shield, 2 actions, Torpedo, Crew, Astromech.

PS4 Punisher = 23 points: 2 attack front, 1-agility, 6 hull, 3 shield, 3 actions, System, 2x Torps, 2 Missles, 2x Bombs

The ARC has 3 attack from the front and 2+-ish from the back, read the previews before saying it sucks.

It doesn't suck. It's just that it doesn't bring anything that the Rebels didn't have already.

As FTS Gecko says, it is a ship that can perform different functions depending on how you equip it. But I say that you may make it feel like an X-Wing wannabe, like a Y-Wing wannabe, or like a B-Wing wannabe.

Or you could aswell just take an X-Wing, Y-Wing, or Bwing, for usually fewer points.

If you are tired of Biggs, you could use instead that pilot that encourages your rival to attack him, if you are tired of the stresshog, you can bring R3-A2 and/or a tactician on an ARC-170. If you are tired of Keyan Farlander or Ten Numb on their B-Wings, you can bring the pilot that removes his stress, or the one that adds a die result for extra, potential damage, and put vectored thrusters to have also the barrel roll.

None of these pilots or upgrades have the Wow factor that the other packs had. It feels samey. Or even below that: underwhelming and uninspired.

The miniature is cool looking, and the potential of the expansion was high (It was the only expansion I was looking forward to getting of this entire wave, for the new droid, torpedoes, the gunner, the thrusters)... But it has resulted to be quite forgettable.

Aha, we heard that already a hundred times

make "rebel only -3 pts torp refit"

Why rebel only? Small ship only would be good, an apply also to Starviper. But -3 pts is way too much. -1 would be ok. fielding 5 T65 seems fine to me

21 pts was the reasoning behind it

to make_sure_5_are_not_taken_at_once

I'm just being sarcastic. the "make rebels great again" threads are like rain, they come and go, and sometimes there are whole "wet seasons" with such threads pooling around.

people are nostalgic about times when rebels were top-dog. Biggz walking the dogs, BBBB, then the times of Phantom menace came, rebels still being VIHan users who was a 146% matchup

I think most people would settle for them being playable at all

Rebels are fat and full of upgrade slots.

every upgrade slot is +1-2-3 pts

I don't know what Wave you're living in, but pricing hasnt been done like that since Wave 2 . FFG quickly realized that pricing for upgrades is dumb as hell. Namely because if those upgrade slots go unfilled, you're spending points for something you're not using, AND it makes actually filling those slots harder because you have less points to work with as a result.

Certain upgrade slots and combinations of upgrade slots will cost points, and you can't just have a ton of upgrade slots without spending the points for them, but each upgrade slot is NOT in fact worth a point each. Warpman, you continue to astound me just how little you actually understand how the game works.

Scum Z vs Rebel Z says "still the same"

1 PS = 1 upgrade icon.

The reasoning behind pricing got a bullet to the head the day Attack Shuttle was released.

And we do not know the formula. The way it "should" be is not the way it is. That's the only thing we know.

Don't agree with some points

Disclaimer: I DO agree 1 agi isn't terribly great while torp scouts still prowl the waters

I also agree it doesn't have the "no **** Sherlock this thing is redundant " factor aka Omega Leader or Inquisitor

But to think it's at all redundant to the X/B/Y...yeah no

First of all, it's a small base aux arc. Apart from the simultaneous release of the Tie/SF (a WILDLY different ship btw), it's unique in that regard

Sure, it's not as awesome drastically "wtf is even this thing??" like the K but it's pretty dang distinct

Second, it's "imitations" of popular builds are actually drastically distinct

For example, stress Bray

Pricer than the SressY certainly but

1.) TWO arcs to stress. You have any idea how irritating that is? You can't just run past him and breathe easy as he takes 3 turns to bring his arc (and back around)

2.) DUDE MIGHT ACTUALLY DO ACTIONA AFTER R3-A2 (50% of the time, green + ability = 2 stress gone)

Alliance overhaul and potential gunner

Then there's regenerating Norra. At first glance she's just another r2d2 port. Look closer, though, and you can distinguish her better. She's the lowest PS and lest tricky/manueverabke, but she is also one of the hardest hitting and she gets the most guaranteed damage cancels (although you have to choose between offense or defense here)

In a late game 1v1, she is the only pilot you can be literally invincible. I'm not talking something cute like "oh, between focus and evade greens I SHOULD be safe" no no...I mean, barring some awful bull (awful crits hitting g through the hull before r2d2 shores it up), a 3 die primary can't touch her outside range 1

Finally, there's bb8. Sure, you may think, it's just like bb8 on an X...and you'd be wrong

It has the most greens out of all the bb8 ships AND, far more importantly, it has the aux arc to completely change the dynamics of the little astromech

TLDR; if you look past the superficial similarities, you'll find a drastically different ship than anything else rebels have to offer

You're just not going to find the meta slaying silver bullet you may have been hoping for

Imo, the only real tragedy of the pack is the absolutely worthless R3. Had it been something like spend a focus while defending g to remove a focus from the opponent (before mods) arcs and Ys would've gotten a great defensive boost to shore up their low agi

My biggest beef with points cost is the 1-agility rebel ships

If my count is correct, including all of the announced ships: Total Ships: Rebels 14, Scum 13 (Including Lancer and Starfighter) and Empire 13. 1-agility or less : Rebels 6, Scum 3, Empire 3. 2-agility: Rebel 6, Scum 6, Empire 4. 3-agility: Rebel 2, Scum 4, Empire 6. When I saw the 1-Agility on the ARC-170, I knew the main thing I would be buying it for is the upgrade cards:

PS3 Jumpmaster = 25 points 2 attack 360 degrees, 2-agility, 5 hull, 4 shield, 3 actions, EPT, 2x Torpedoes, Crew, Astromech, Illicit

PS3 ARC-170 = 25 points: 2 attack in front and back arc.1-agility, 6 hull, 3 shield, 2 actions, Torpedo, Crew, Astromech.

PS4 Punisher = 23 points: 2 attack front, 1-agility, 6 hull, 3 shield, 3 actions, System, 2x Torps, 2 Missles, 2x Bombs

The ARC has 3 attack from the front and 2+-ish from the back, read the previews before saying it sucks.

It doesn't suck. It's just that it doesn't bring anything that the Rebels didn't have already.

As FTS Gecko says, it is a ship that can perform different functions depending on how you equip it. But I say that you may make it feel like an X-Wing wannabe, like a Y-Wing wannabe, or like a B-Wing wannabe.

Or you could aswell just take an X-Wing, Y-Wing, or Bwing, for usually fewer points.

If you are tired of Biggs, you could use instead that pilot that encourages your rival to attack him, if you are tired of the stresshog, you can bring R3-A2 and/or a tactician on an ARC-170. If you are tired of Keyan Farlander or Ten Numb on their B-Wings, you can bring the pilot that removes his stress, or the one that adds a die result for extra, potential damage, and put vectored thrusters to have also the barrel roll.

None of these pilots or upgrades have the Wow factor that the other packs had. It feels samey. Or even below that: underwhelming and uninspired.

The miniature is cool looking, and the potential of the expansion was high (It was the only expansion I was looking forward to getting of this entire wave, for the new droid, torpedoes, the gunner, the thrusters)... But it has resulted to be quite forgettable.

I think the main problem everyone seems to have with the ARC 170 isn't so much that it's more of the same rebel archetype, otherwise everyone would be complaining when the imperials get another affordable ace/hyper manuverable/ action efficient ship like the new sf tie or the Inquisitor s tie.

The problem is that the ARC is another version of the rebel archetype that just isn't good in the meta right now. A buff through cards or powerful meta lists is what the rebel heavy fighter needs.

Note, to buff "rebel heavy fighters" you need to introduce upgrades that remove enemy mods

Their ability won't ever amount to much, so you need to reduce damage from enemy offense

Only r7 and r4d6 (indirectly) really reduce the impact of enemy modifiers ATM

There's some thematic justification for it. The Rebels were always resource poor and short of supplies, at least compared to the Empire, who could crank out ten TIE Fighters in the time it took you to shoot down one. So it makes sense that their ships would cost more, as they're more valuable to them than the seemingly endless wave of TIEs the Empire can spit out.

**** me. Overpriced? Where the hell were you a few months ago when Paul Heaver's Worlds List bestrode the land causing perturbation and despair?

Rebels aren't bloody overpriced. They're just in a weird spot in the meta right now where the proliferation of U-Boats is a direct counter to some of their best ships and tricks. This too shall pass. The wheel turns, and when something comes along that makes ordnance Jumpies less ubiquitous we'll be drowning in Stresshogs and Rebel Regen again, never fear.

My biggest beef with points cost is the 1-agility rebel ships

If my count is correct, including all of the announced ships:

Total Ships: Rebels 14, Scum 13 (Including Lancer and Starfighter) and Empire 13.

1-agility or less : Rebels 6, Scum 3, Empire 3.

2-agility: Rebel 6, Scum 6, Empire 4.

3-agility: Rebel 2, Scum 4, Empire 6.

When I saw the 1-Agility on the ARC-170, I knew the main thing I would be buying it for is the upgrade cards:

PS3 Jumpmaster = 25 points 2 attack 360 degrees, 2-agility, 5 hull, 4 shield, 3 actions, EPT, 2x Torpedoes, Crew, Astromech, Illicit

PS3 ARC-170 = 25 points: 2 attack in front and back arc.1-agility, 6 hull, 3 shield, 2 actions, Torpedo, Crew, Astromech.

PS4 Punisher = 23 points: 2 attack front, 1-agility, 6 hull, 3 shield, 3 actions, System, 2x Torps, 2 Missles, 2x Bombs

This is a somewhat limited view I suspect.

The rebels may have more ships with 1 Agility but they have more ships with shields, more ships with turrets, more ships with regen. The agility is one of the last distinctions the Imperials seem to have.

The X-Wing has been crap compared to the TIE Fighter since Wave 1. Integrated Astromech nudged it a tad closer.

These are facts you quite literally cannot argue with.

Still, every post OP makes makes me cringe. I hate having to share a side with someone who makes such ridiculous posts.

The cost of terrorism is high, were you a law abiding citizen things would be better for you.

Indeed.

Man do I want a 2/4/2/0 rebel ship that has a terrible dial but is 10 points.

Man do I want a 2/4/2/0 rebel ship that has a terrible dial but is 10 points.

It's called Vulture droid, and we're not seeing TF too soon

Another day, another set of demands from JimbonX?

If FFG hired me I would fix their game instead poting about it here...

The game isn't broken. It doesn't need fixing.

Rebels are fat and full of upgrade slots.

every upgrade slot is +1-2-3 pts

I don't know what Wave you're living in, but pricing hasnt been done like that since Wave 2 . FFG quickly realized that pricing for upgrades is dumb as hell. Namely because if those upgrade slots go unfilled, you're spending points for something you're not using, AND it makes actually filling those slots harder because you have less points to work with as a result.

Certain upgrade slots and combinations of upgrade slots will cost points, and you can't just have a ton of upgrade slots without spending the points for them, but each upgrade slot is NOT in fact worth a point each. Warpman, you continue to astound me just how little you actually understand how the game works.

Scum Z vs Rebel Z says "still the same"

1 PS = 1 upgrade icon.

The reasoning behind pricing got a bullet to the head the day Attack Shuttle was released.

And we do not know the formula. The way it "should" be is not the way it is. That's the only thing we know.

IT'S A 12 POINT SHIP! IT HAS ONE MORE HP(TWO OF THOSE HP ARE SHIELDS) THAN A TIE FIGHTER AND ONE LESS AGILITY! YOU CAN ALSO MOUNT A MISSILE!

IT'S THE CHEAPEST SHIP IN THE GAME! HOW CAN YOU BASE YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT OFF OF THE SINGULAR EXCEPTION?!

Theres just too many ways to nerfs defense dices these days. 2die ships usually can still dodge 1 hit reliably, both because double the odds of rolling 1 evade and if they get 2 you USUALLY cant cancel both, or reduce agi and cancel 1 (Wedge or intimidation or Tractor is all that comes to mind that can reduce agi and still potentially counter evades, though if you run Juke on Wedge you have a TON of points dedicated to giving him Juke capabilities lol).

Its gotten easier to guarantee 3-4die hits.

Its gotten easier to counter defense.

Rebel still gets 1agi ships aplenty. 9 total health means jack squat when they get hit with 2-3 4die hits a turn which have surprising accuracy.

This is what happened to Star Trek Attack Wing. As the Meta developed you where able to get 4-7 Guaranteed hits with your opponent rolling 4-5 evade dice IF they brought Evade Shenanigans. Getting what was 3 Unstopable hits against ships that averaged between 6-9 Health meant that anything that wasnt getting Guaranteed dice was trash.

The largest variety Rebels has is for 3 or 2 ship builds. Meaning yes, Rebels are expensive. Stuff that made 4 or 5 ship Rebels good in the past is not good now. I predict Paul Heaver will not fly 4-ship rebels at worlds this year.

You need viable ship builds in the 18-27 point range for a 4-ship build to be possible. FFG is not designing ships in this point range. (for Rebels or Scum)

[imperials are the exception]

In X-wing, the variety of GOOD ships and builds possible in the 30+ points range has grown very large.

The viable build variety in the less than 27 points range has greatly stagnated and, based on wave 9, won't be changing anytime soon.

A 5-ship Rebel build MUST contain Z-95's or A-wing's and build options on those less than 20 points are slim.

Scum has it even worse of course. The Z-95 is the only viable ship below 24 points. This is why the Fang Fighter generics better be costed correctly!

#fixthesyck #fixthekirhaxz

you know, we talked about the useless single torp slot on a lot of the rebel ships ("a lot" meaning the X and the E; now the ARC) but they did just tease the first ACTION: torpedo

if it's any good, it might actually immediately justify the slot (even on Xs, if it turns out its not an attack but just a roll for damage, like prox mines, because then g-chips can't fix it anyway so you're free to IA)

the ARC is also new in that it actually has the same modifiers as JM5ks on plasma torps (and that it can take g-chips without shooting itself in the foot ala the X). You don't have deadeye, but with PTL you still have a focus + chips leftover after you've spent the TL to fire

Now, this does NOT make ARCs the new ordnance hotness (deadeye's pretty good, man) BUT it may give you something against jumpmasters. After all, nothing slays jumpmasters quite like boatloads of dice at a PS higher than 3

now the problem, as there's always a problem, is that only Shara seems any good with PTL plamas (possibly assited by bb-8).

Norra loses her ability if she spends the TL to fire (unless she uses Shara's, but then Shara's not firing torps and what's the point?) and I have no idea how the math stacks up there.

Braylen (r2-d6) doesn't really synergize with PTL (50% ability kicks in before you PTL and you don't want to gamble on a white manuever if you want to PTL the following turn) AND he's PS 3

Thane (also r2-d6) has an ability that makes PTL redundant, but which doesn't facilitate alphas on lower PS pilots (you take the action after the enemy shoots, which is good for setting up a free TL on JM5ks but not for getting full mods)

maybe there's another way to get focus + TL that I'm overlooking...a way that doesn't involve gambling on Braylen's 50% + targeting astromech

The largest variety Rebels has is for 3 or 2 ship builds. Meaning yes, Rebels are expensive. Stuff that made 4 or 5 ship Rebels good in the past is not good now. I predict Paul Heaver will not fly 4-ship rebels at worlds this year.You need viable ship builds in the 18-27 point range for a 4-ship build to be possible. FFG is not designing ships in this point range. (for Rebels or Scum)[imperials are the exception]In X-wing, the variety of GOOD ships and builds possible in the 30+ points range has grown very large.The viable build variety in the less than 27 points range has greatly stagnated and, based on wave 9, won't be changing anytime soon.A 5-ship Rebel build MUST contain Z-95's or A-wing's and build options on those less than 20 points are slim.Scum has it even worse of course. The Z-95 is the only viable ship below 24 points. This is why the Fang Fighter generics better be costed correctly!#fixthesyck #fixthekirhaxz

I was with you until the last paragraph.

Having taken Kihraxz to a top 40 finish at Yavin and havngbwon two store tournaments with them out of three since their release, I can testify that the humble Cartel Marauder can be a Rea threat. Mindlinked Black Sun Aces are not to be sniffed at, either, and will get even better with Vector Thrusters. Scum HWKs with their incredible cheap crew are also good.

FYI Mangler Scyks also played a role in that first store win, and they also did very well recently at Lothal.

I'm not saying these ships wouldn't benefit from a few new pilots, options and upgrades - of course they would - but to suggest they're useless and need to be "fixed" is to show a lack of experience flying them and/or understanding of their role.

you know, we talked about the useless single torp slot on a lot of the rebel ships ("a lot" meaning the X and the E; now the ARC) but they did just tease the first ACTION: torpedo

if it's any good, it might actually immediately justify the slot (even on Xs, if it turns out its not an attack but just a roll for damage, like prox mines, because then g-chips can't fix it anyway so you're free to IA)

the ARC is also new in that it actually has the same modifiers as JM5ks on plasma torps (and that it can take g-chips without shooting itself in the foot ala the X). You don't have deadeye, but with PTL you still have a focus + chips leftover after you've spent the TL to fire

Now, this does NOT make ARCs the new ordnance hotness (deadeye's pretty good, man) BUT it may give you something against jumpmasters. After all, nothing slays jumpmasters quite like boatloads of dice at a PS higher than 3

now the problem, as there's always a problem, is that only Shara seems any good with PTL plamas (possibly assited by bb-8).

Norra loses her ability if she spends the TL to fire (unless she uses Shara's, but then Shara's not firing torps and what's the point?) and I have no idea how the math stacks up there.

Braylen (r2-d6) doesn't really synergize with PTL (50% ability kicks in before you PTL and you don't want to gamble on a white manuever if you want to PTL the following turn) AND he's PS 3

Thane (also r2-d6) has an ability that makes PTL redundant, but which doesn't facilitate alphas on lower PS pilots (you take the action after the enemy shoots, which is good for setting up a free TL on JM5ks but not for getting full mods)

maybe there's another way to get focus + TL that I'm overlooking...a way that doesn't involve gambling on Braylen's 50% + targeting astromech

So you're essentially saying the ARC pilots arent very good. None of their abilities are worth building around to counter the current meta. Good job ffg.