Do you think people will start doing intentional final salvos?

Let's say someone knows their red dice are rolling amazing today, they want to get some dinner before the final cut. So they just roll for their final match with a 'final salvo'. Now they have won, and half the appeal of an 'intentional draw' anyways was being able to relax and get some tasty dinner.

This will probably become a thing.

intentional final salvo (IFS)

It won't. Because if you do it so early, the judge will likely force it into a concession.

CO

Final salvo rule seems meh. A lot of people say its rare as hens teeth but that really isn't so.

How many draws were you seeing? I'd guess it's maybe 1 in every 100 games played.

Depends on the meta. When Brobots and Quad TLT was prevalent it was as common as 1 in 4 because all the scoring was in perfect lots of 25.

At both this years regional and the year before I had draws. Last years was when the opponent used his feedback array to kill both our last 88s.

This year I had Imperials vs a Scum list and it was a full win vs a draw on just 1 point of damage. That draw actually got my opponent through to the top 8 and he went on to get 2nd. Imagine how he would have felt if he was knocked out due to a dice roll after fighting to a draw. I also made it to the Top 8 on that draw after another player in the top 8 was DQ (I was 9th Seed) so I too could have be utterly knocked out on a dice roll.

Serious question what is the problem with ID'S?

To me? Not a darn thing. It rewarded players that usual had a tougher road. But people's heads exploded over it because apparently the point of going to a premier event is to play games and not worry about winning the event.

Well, remember that you can always concede if you've done well enough to make the final cut without having to play your last game.

I think the problem with the ID was always that there were plenty of instances where matchups were a determing factor players who were on the bubble and could take an ID to secure their spot because their opponent could as well. Meanwhile other players on the bubble were not only forced to play but were locked out by that situation.

--

With respect to Final Salvo, while it seems contrived, it seems like it was intended to create an imbalance so that it is always in the best interest of one player to bring the game to a conclusion.

The people locked out were behind because they had already lost. So why reward that rather then reward someone that had been performing better up to that point.

Because if, for example in a 5 round event, it should be the people who play best across 5 games, not 4 in this case. In sports, do the teams ahead in the standings get a freebie in the last game of the season if they're already ahead but could still be caught with a loss just because they've performed better by 1 game over someone else? Nope.

Serious question what is the problem with ID'S?

To me? Not a darn thing. It rewarded players that usual had a tougher road. But people's heads exploded over it because apparently the point of going to a premier event is to play games and not worry about winning the event.

Well, remember that you can always concede if you've done well enough to make the final cut without having to play your last game.

I think the problem with the ID was always that there were plenty of instances where matchups were a determing factor players who were on the bubble and could take an ID to secure their spot because their opponent could as well. Meanwhile other players on the bubble were not only forced to play but were locked out by that situation.

--

With respect to Final Salvo, while it seems contrived, it seems like it was intended to create an imbalance so that it is always in the best interest of one player to bring the game to a conclusion.

The people locked out were behind because they had already lost. So why reward that rather then reward someone that had been performing better up to that point.

Because if, for example in a 5 round event, it should be the people who play best across 5 games, not 4 in this case. In sports, do the teams ahead in the standings get a freebie in the last game of the season if they're already ahead but could still be caught with a loss just because they've performed better by 1 game over someone else? Nope.

Well, in football, if a team has an amazing record going into the final, and secured top seed, they will play 2nd string to give the starters a bigger rest going into playoffs. So, that point is moot because it does happen. Now they have tried to change this attitude by scheduling a division game that week, but sometimes it just doesn't matter.

Serious question what is the problem with ID'S?

To me? Not a darn thing. It rewarded players that usual had a tougher road. But people's heads exploded over it because apparently the point of going to a premier event is to play games and not worry about winning the event.

Well, remember that you can always concede if you've done well enough to make the final cut without having to play your last game.

I think the problem with the ID was always that there were plenty of instances where matchups were a determing factor players who were on the bubble and could take an ID to secure their spot because their opponent could as well. Meanwhile other players on the bubble were not only forced to play but were locked out by that situation.

--

With respect to Final Salvo, while it seems contrived, it seems like it was intended to create an imbalance so that it is always in the best interest of one player to bring the game to a conclusion.

The people locked out were behind because they had already lost. So why reward that rather then reward someone that had been performing better up to that point.

Because if, for example in a 5 round event, it should be the people who play best across 5 games, not 4 in this case. In sports, do the teams ahead in the standings get a freebie in the last game of the season if they're already ahead but could still be caught with a loss just because they've performed better by 1 game over someone else? Nope.

Well, in football, if a team has an amazing record going into the final, and secured top seed, they will play 2nd string to give the starters a bigger rest going into playoffs. So, that point is moot because it does happen. Now they have tried to change this attitude by scheduling a division game that week, but sometimes it just doesn't matter.

I was very specific in that if they could still be caught by the team behind then it's not fair, so it's not moot. What if one team is a single game behind, but owns the tie breaker in the football example? You wouldn't see them resting players then. The X-wing equivalent is being one win behind but having greater MOV. It's exactly the same.

If anything, this should be a big nudge to FFG to make some **** maneuver reference sheets of their own and post them on the resources page.

CO

Final salvo rule seems meh. A lot of people say its rare as hens teeth but that really isn't so.

How many draws were you seeing? I'd guess it's maybe 1 in every 100 games played.

Depends on the meta. When Brobots and Quad TLT was prevalent it was as common as 1 in 4 because all the scoring was in perfect lots of 25.

At both this years regional and the year before I had draws. Last years was when the opponent used his feedback array to kill both our last 88s.

This year I had Imperials vs a Scum list and it was a full win vs a draw on just 1 point of damage. That draw actually got my opponent through to the top 8 and he went on to get 2nd. Imagine how he would have felt if he was knocked out due to a dice roll after fighting to a draw. I also made it to the Top 8 on that draw after another player in the top 8 was DQ (I was 9th Seed) so I too could have be utterly knocked out on a dice roll.

That's actually amazing. I know a lot of people who have played for a long time and no one has a draw rate like that, even isolating waves. Wow.

Now that modified wins are gone, all yoy have to do is destroy a ship or 2 and run. Or heck you can just build a 4 phantom list, stay cloaked move around the board like crazy. Never shoot anything then roll 16 dice to probably win in the final slavo. Can not wait to see a final match played like this.

Or just fortress up with 7 or 8 ties and play slow. You're either going to flying 7 or 8 arcs or try to roll me at the end when I roll 16 dice.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, competent players will still defeat all of the contrived strategies that try and game the new scoring system...

Or heck you can just build a 4 phantom list, stay cloaked move around the board like crazy. Never shoot anything then roll 16 dice to probably win in the final slavo. Can not wait to see a final match played like this.

I encourage you to try this at your next tournament, and adjust your thinking based on your results.

I actually do plan to adapt this kind ofcplay style. Maybe not 4 phantoms, but lots of red dice and force my opponent to fly into all or just avoid it not engage in combat.

Do you think people will start doing intentional final salvos?

Let's say someone knows their red dice are rolling amazing today, they want to get some dinner before the final cut. So they just roll for their final match with a 'final salvo'. Now they have won, and half the appeal of an 'intentional draw' anyways was being able to relax and get some tasty dinner.

This will probably become a thing.

intentional final salvo (IFS)

In some ways this just ends up being fairly close to what IDs "should" have been. This only works if both players agree to "draw" and is only really possible if both players have enough points to make it into the cut anyway by scoring zero points. So for those players the outcome of "drawing" is less of an issue since it does not prevent anyone else from also making the cut. The problem with IDs was that the one point often took other players on the cusp out of the equation and thus impacted the make up of the cut, when two players already qualified do it it only changes the standings in the cut, which is way less of an issue.

Of course if IDs had been zero points, the outcome would have been similar.

Now that modified wins are gone, all yoy have to do is destroy a ship or 2 and run. Or heck you can just build a 4 phantom list, stay cloaked move around the board like crazy. Never shoot anything then roll 16 dice to probably win in the final slavo. Can not wait to see a final match played like this.

You could...always do that. But it hoses your mov

Now that modified wins are gone, all yoy have to do is destroy a ship or 2 and run. Or heck you can just build a 4 phantom list, stay cloaked move around the board like crazy. Never shoot anything then roll 16 dice to probably win in the final slavo. Can not wait to see a final match played like this.

You could...always do that. But it hoses your mov

Point is to just win right. So if it gets me wins not going to worry about MoV

I do feel it's a little excessively rough on Dengar, Dash, and especially on the poor ARC and TIE/sf who haven't even come out yet and yet now their primary value is lower than it 'should' be. TIE/adv, Scyks, and HLC Brobots feel a bit peeved too, I suspect.

Is it an easy one to adjudicate? Certainly not, and I sympathise with trying to avoid, eg, torpedoes giving an artificial advantage, but this still feels really awkward.

I wonder why they didn't try to simply tie it to initiative? That way you'd play the whole game knowing who had the benefit of the draw if it was so needed.

Still better than modified wins and IDs, though.

I do feel it's a little excessively rough on Dengar, Dash, and especially on the poor ARC and TIE/sf who haven't even come out yet and yet now their primary value is lower than it 'should' be. TIE/adv, Scyks, and HLC Brobots feel a bit peeved too, I suspect.

Is it an easy one to adjudicate? Certainly not, and I sympathise with trying to avoid, eg, torpedoes giving an artificial advantage, but this still feels really awkward.

I wonder why they didn't try to simply tie it to initiative? That way you'd play the whole game knowing who had the benefit of the draw if it was so needed.

Still better than modified wins and IDs, though.

Now that modified wins are gone, all yoy have to do is destroy a ship or 2 and run. Or heck you can just build a 4 phantom list, stay cloaked move around the board like crazy. Never shoot anything then roll 16 dice to probably win in the final slavo. Can not wait to see a final match played like this.

You could...always do that. But it hoses your mov

Point is to just win right. So if it gets me wins not going to worry about MoV

Please keep track of your success rate for us and report on it.

An interesting point that has come up that Solo Whisper is now Super viable.

He can be used to box up 100 points of MOV and only needs to score just 1 point from the opponent and survive until time for a full win.

Is there any better choice for a small ship to make that hit and then hide until time?

An interesting point that has come up that Solo Whisper is now Super viable.He can be used to box up 100 points of MOV and only needs to score just 1 point from the opponent and survive until time for a full win.Is there any better choice for a small ship to make that hit and then hide until time?

There are so many squads that would wreck a solo shisper...

Now that modified wins are gone, all yoy have to do is destroy a ship or 2 and run. Or heck you can just build a 4 phantom list, stay cloaked move around the board like crazy. Never shoot anything then roll 16 dice to probably win in the final slavo. Can not wait to see a final match played like this.

Or just fortress up with 7 or 8 ties and play slow. You're either going to flying 7 or 8 arcs or try to roll me at the end when I roll 16 dice.

The thing you guys seem to be forgetting is that it takes two people to make this happen. If you decide to fly around with 4 Phantoms or a swarm of TIEs, and expect to Final Salvo, then fine. But guess what? I'll shoot a Phantom down, or a TIE or two, and then what? No Salvo for you because I just got the win.

It's very simple. Just play the game.

An interesting point that has come up that Solo Whisper is now Super viable.He can be used to box up 100 points of MOV and only needs to score just 1 point from the opponent and survive until time for a full win.Is there any better choice for a small ship to make that hit and then hide until time?

Well, whomever made that point didn't think it through. That exact strategy could have been used under the previous scoring system since in order to score those points under the new or old system Whisper would need to destroy a ship or score half points on a big ship. Either result is enough for a full win if Whisper can survive. Did we see that method out to use under the old system? Nope.

An interesting point that has come up that Solo Whisper is now Super viable.He can be used to box up 100 points of MOV and only needs to score just 1 point from the opponent and survive until time for a full win.Is there any better choice for a small ship to make that hit and then hide until time?

Well, whomever made that point didn't think it through. That exact strategy could have been used under the previous scoring system since in order to score those points under the new or old system Whisper would need to destroy a ship or score half points on a big ship. Either result is enough for a full win if Whisper can survive. Did we see that method out to use under the old system? Nope.

When the game first started MOD wins were 33 points. So you boxed up your list in lots of 32/68. This caused some issues and was dropped to 12 points.

At this time we started 2 ship lists using Han or Chewie to lock up a big heap of points and give away near nothing.

Then they made Big ships worth half so this devalued their potential in the lock-up because you still needed to take out more than 12 points more than your loss or be Mod win.

Those mod wins with MOV sucked you out of the cut. Now, everything is a full Win or nothing.

Under the prior systems, the player with the most tournament points will have the highest MOV, under the new system, the player at the top may have only 600 MOV from 6 rounds whereas a 5 rounds winner could plausibly have MOV of 1089. Such again comes the time of point boxing and time-outs because MOV. The devaluing of MOV is supported further by the new cut structure, at the 41-76 level the everyone with 5 wins gets in regardless of MOV. There are no MOD wins that could push you out.

Well, this turned into a dumpster fire more quickly than I expected. I suppose it's a good reminder of why I scaled back my investment in the forum, but it hardly seems worth the loss of a useful discussion.

An interesting point that has come up that Solo Whisper is now Super viable.He can be used to box up 100 points of MOV and only needs to score just 1 point from the opponent and survive until time for a full win.Is there any better choice for a small ship to make that hit and then hide until time?

Well, whomever made that point didn't think it through. That exact strategy could have been used under the previous scoring system since in order to score those points under the new or old system Whisper would need to destroy a ship or score half points on a big ship. Either result is enough for a full win if Whisper can survive. Did we see that method out to use under the old system? Nope.

When the game first started MOD wins were 33 points. So you boxed up your list in lots of 32/68. This caused some issues and was dropped to 12 points.

At this time we started 2 ship lists using Han or Chewie to lock up a big heap of points and give away near nothing.

Then they made Big ships worth half so this devalued their potential in the lock-up because you still needed to take out more than 12 points more than your loss or be Mod win.

Those mod wins with MOV sucked you out of the cut. Now, everything is a full Win or nothing.

Under the prior systems, the player with the most tournament points will have the highest MOV, under the new system, the player at the top may have only 600 MOV from 6 rounds whereas a 5 rounds winner could plausibly have MOV of 1089. Such again comes the time of point boxing and time-outs because MOV. The devaluing of MOV is supported further by the new cut structure, at the 41-76 level the everyone with 5 wins gets in regardless of MOV. There are no MOD wins that could push you out.

I started in Wave 3 and only attended one regional before Wave 4 and World's that year, but the 33 points required for a win really didn't have to do with people "boxing" up their list (I think the best lists from the Wave from that era of X-wing prove that) and had more to do with the fact that a 33 point difference led to more modified wins than they wanted.

Big ships holding onto MoV was actually an exploitation of the MoV system that you said was devalued when they went to 12 points and it made it very difficult for 4 ships lists to make it to the top. (BTW, 12 points counted as a full win, no a modified win -- minor difference but the difference is a TIE fighter).

I'm not sure what you are talking about regarding devaluing of MoV because the Advanced Structure maintains a top cut all the way through (p17). In events like the System Opens, we're still seeing that MoV matters as even though you make it to day 2, a poor MoV can drastically change your chances Day 2.

Anyway, I think that most people understand that it was a problem that Modified Wins essentially penalized you in both tournament points and tiebreakers since a Mod Win was based on the a low MoV. Now, a win is a win is a win.

Point is to just win right. So if it gets me wins not going to worry about MoV

You clearly don't understand how the system works if you think that...

I suppose it's a good reminder of why I scaled back my investment in the forum, but it hardly seems worth the loss of a useful discussion.

I know the feeling VS... I've done the same thing myself.