The name pilots are going to soak up 50pts or so to be playable imo.

How on earth are you loading up 50 points on a single Punisher? Most of my builds with either of the two named pilots top out at 38 points and the generics rarely go above 31...

Still, I don't think the Punisher itself is bad as much as they are lacking in unique options compared to the standard bomber. The systems slot only has one option currently that really synergises well with ordnance (fire control system) and the extra bomb slot is hard to take advantage of when the two biggest meta threats can either soak bomb damage or avoid them. The named pilots are both good at what they specialize in, just they don't really fit into current Imperial list archetypes (neither really benefits from Palpatine and they are too pricey to add into crack swarms).

I personally would love to see a system upgrade that allowed you to play with the detonation timing on bombs dropped by the ship carrying it. Being able to detonate a bomb immediatly after executing your maneuver or delaying it by a turn would be a huge boon for the generic Punishers and Deathrain. Scum could use such an upgrade with the IGs and Rebels could make do with Sabine on the Ghost or a B-wing.

Edit: Just as an aside, but I have been having quite a bit of fun lately with a pair of Punishers carrying Extra Munitions, Fire Control System, Guidance Chips, and Advanced Proton Torpedoes. Haven't settled on what to do with the last 34-38 points yet, but last game the Punishers nearly 1-shot a full health Ghost and one did 1-shot an Attack Shuttle after it was jettisoned.

opps. my bad. 37pts of Redline would be enough to make it playable, at least before the nerf. shows you how often i have played the punisher (never). I cant see myself playing it anytime soon. even at 35-40pts.

The forums are broken, because gamer slang is "Broken=overpowered" hence a Fix is a nerf to that

But here "broken" stands for "useless overpriced garbage" and Fixes mean overpowering it.

You need way more upvotes. My only regret is I have but only one to give.

The way I see it is if you aren't using the systems upgrade you might as well use a bomber (as other people have said for being cheaper). The punisher doesn't have an EPT, and systems upgrades are kinda on the low/weak side so why not kill two birds with one stone and make the systems upgrade the punisher's "ept" something that can be used on the lambda too but without it just being a systems upgrade that says "You gain an EPT". Advance sensors is pretty good. sensor jammer is a little costly, FCS everyone likes it because its cheap and really useful. Enhance scops has its uses. Acc. correctors could be the new FCS for clusters (they still work despite the new faq right?) A punisher version of the ADV.targeting computer could be nice (not an exact copy of course but maybe something along the lines of "You may preform two attacks from secondary weapons in combat" or "After making an attack you may drop a bomb with the "ACTION" header." This could bring a lot of life in many ships with system upgrades. It can make a more offensive lambda, B-wings turn into heavy hitters, brobots become very very scary again...., I don't know just tossing ideas out there.

... Systems Upgrades are on the low-to-weak side? Are you kidding?

FCS is kind of a big deal. While more niche, Advanced Sensors and Sensor Jammers demand their respect, too.

And if you read what I wrote I addressed them. Aside from the large ship and tie advance upgrades there are only 6 upgrades and out of the remaining 6 only FCS is the "kind of a big deal" with two others as you say is "niche" and the rest is meh. Yes system upgrades are on the low-weak side.

Problem with TIE Punishers is the same problem with TIE Bombers. Torpedoes Missiles and Bombs are not any good unless you can build them just right and as of now there is no good ways TIE Bombers and TIE Punishers could build them. Not in any way that U-boats Degnaroo can build them.

its difficult to use in friendly play. Thats a pretty good indicator to me it sucks.

Its too expensive. You're basically paying for that buttload of upgrade slots but you cant POSSIBLY use that many. Ive never even put 2 bombs on it (bombs not mines) which you could technically dump 4 of with extra muns because odds are once its in a position where it could use that, its dead 2 turns later or faster.

Agreed. I like the ship, but it goes up in a ball of plasma with all ordnance in the tubes as often as I get it unloaded. But in the latter case, hoo baby, is it aptly named.

I think that and upgrade (possibly called Fire Link) to loose 2 missile/torp shots at once would make the ship a whole lot more useful, and make sure it died with the tubes empty.

There are more ways to play this game than 100-point tournament competitions.

Not every ship has to be a tourney winner.

In casual and Epic play the Punisher is a monster.

Agreed, although I do wish at least one of the generics had an EPT so you could at least PTL. Same problem as the Bomber, recently fixed by Imp Vets.

The name pilots are going to soak up 50pts or so to be playable imo.

How on earth are you loading up 50 points on a single Punisher? Most of my builds with either of the two named pilots top out at 38 points and the generics rarely go above 31...

If you trick it out to the max with expensive ordnance, 50 points is pretty easy. And if I don't, I wonder why the hell I'm putting it on the table.

Its just too fragile to live long enough to deliver a big payload and if your just going light tie bombers exist.

To this day I don't see why they released it.

Game still needs a title to help small bombers, generally, not just the punisher.

"Strike Fighter. Title. Small base only . Cost: 1 pt. For each bomb, missile, or torpedo upgrade equipped to the ship, reduce the ship's cost by 1 pt."

Wow. 5 pages and not a single picture of a broken TIE punisher model? Do you remember that thread where that guy said he accidentally ran over his TIE defender in the drive way? That was broken. And sad. Broken because the poor model, and sad because he didn't post a picture.

Problem with TIE Punishers is the same problem with TIE Bombers. Torpedoes Missiles and Bombs are not any good unless you can build them just right and as of now there is no good ways TIE Bombers and TIE Punishers could build them. Not in any way that U-boats Degnaroo can build them.

Gah, why do you not listen to me, there is a way to build munitions TIE Bombers well. Deadeye, Homing Missile, EM, GC . Done. You have the same flexibility and expected hits as U-Boats and you have a build in 4-LOM to combat token-stackers. Throw in one with Crackshot/LRS as well to herd them to the other Bombers (thats great and something U-Boats never could do!)

The Punisher does not have a generic that has an Elite slot, which decreases its usefullness for generic missile slingers. Sadly for Missile spam, Deadeye is a must.

Wait, punisher has no EPTs even on named pilots, no?

neither do K-wings.

SO the EPT-using ordnance carriers are Contracted Uboat and Glave Vet Bomber. The rest are out of the equation.

Wait, punisher has no EPTs even on named pilots, no?

neither do K-wings.

SO the EPT-using ordnance carriers are Contracted Uboat and Glave Vet Bomber. The rest are out of the equation.

Not entirely. Miranda can still wield her Homing Missile at PS8 relatively fine. Redline used to be able to do work before his Cluster Missiles were taken away. High PS is a substitute for Deadeye, but its of course not spammable and won't define a list. The EPT is only needed for low PS ships because of how unfavoured they are.

When we come into the disguisting world of Acewing, where PS8 is not enough, and Initiative bids reach 3-5 points (luckily not 26 as with Whipster...)

Even so she's not really an ordnance queen.

And even she can't reliably guess the enemy move, move exactly into the spot, take teh focus and wait for the enemy to ride into R3 without chances to get into a clinch R1

Deadeye is a great card, and I'm happy that after like 6 waves it's seeing use and makes people tear their hair out in rage that their super-perfect-ps9-snowflake-list gets smashed.

For all this talk about the Punisher, deep down I really feel that FFG knows. In my eyes, I see "Deathfire" as an apology to all of us who love Deathrain, and he's meant to hold us off until FFG figures out what to do.

Systems upgrade that specifically benefits bombers would be very simple fix.

Broken is overpowered in gamer speak. So no the Punisher is not Broken its just not a good ship as is when compared to other bombers.

or maybe just give it 3atk? After you have expended all munitions, it is still relevant to the game(for its points). Guidance chips now gives you a crit. It doesnt fight for the same role as an Alpha TIEint (cheap 3atk potential blocker) nor a Tempest TIEadv (much more tanky and guaranteed crits), it has a different role from the shuttle, it still makes sense to put ordnance on it due to its lousy dial.

And most importantly, it has a different role from the TIEbomber, which is either a cheap alpha strike tool or a crew support. The TIEpun is now more of a cleanup + fire support

giving it a 3primary would be great. Gives it backup power if you get range1 so i dont lose my punch (4 die in yo face with more than likely a TL) and also makes Gchips mod into a crit like you said.

...actually thats an oddly simple fix that sounds really good.

giving it a 3primary would be great. Gives it backup power if you get range1 so i dont lose my punch (4 die in yo face with more than likely a TL) and also makes Gchips mod into a crit like you said.

...actually thats an oddly simple fix that sounds really good.

Also, it turns the TIEpun into a Bwing equivalent, which the Imperials lack. Rebels have the Bwing, Scum have the Mist Hunter.

The punisher would almost certainly have to take a pts hike to be 3 atk.

The bomber an even more extreme one.

the Bwing is 22pts for 3atk, 8 combined hp and systems slot, barrel roll and a half-lousy dial

the Mist Hunter is 23 points for 3 atk, 8 combinerd hp and systems slot, illicit slot, barrel roll, a half-lousy dial and evade action.

the TIEpun is currently 21 points for 2 atk, 9 combined hp (with the least amount of shields) and systems slot, boost action and a half-lousy dial. Give it a 3atk and it merely matches the rest of the competition.

also consider that a shuttle is 21 points for 3atk, 10 combined hp, systems slot, crew slots and large ship base.

the TIEbomber is good where it is, especially with the help from the new Imp Vet pack

the Bwing is 22pts for 3atk, 8 combined hp and systems slot, barrel roll and a half-lousy dial

the Mist Hunter is 23 points for 3 atk, 8 combinerd hp and systems slot, illicit slot, barrel roll, a half-lousy dial and evade action.

the TIEpun is currently 21 points for 2 atk, 9 combined hp (with the least amount of shields) and systems slot, boost action and a half-lousy dial. Give it a 3atk and it merely matches the rest of the competition.

also consider that a shuttle is 21 points for 3atk, 10 combined hp, systems slot, crew slots and large ship base.

the TIEbomber is good where it is, especially with the help from the new Imp Vet pack

Comparing frontline fighters (who aren't seeing their golden age btw) and a heavy ordnance carrier is misleading at best.

That just means its a 2-3pt title instead of free.

If we are comparing it to the Bwing then lets look at Keyan (the only **** Bwing ever used) and Deathrain (the only Punisher ever used).

Keyan: 29pts base, PS7, Atk3, Agi1, Hull3, Shield5 (Total HP: 8). Has EPT, Sensor, Cannon, 2x Torps (Crew with mod)

Actions: Focus, TL, Barrelroll

Dial: Slow speeds, lot of reds (which feed Keyan's ability in this case)

Deathrain: 26pts base, PS6, Atk2, Agi1, Hull6, Shields3 (Total HP: 9). Has Sensors, 2x Missile, 2x Torp, 2x Bomb.

Actions: Focus, TL, Boost

Dial: Medium speed (only K-turn and 2hard red, no 1hard)

So what is different? Ignoring Keyan's lust for red moves, Punisher technically has a better dial but by how much is subject to opinion.

Punisher has 1 total hp more, but its mostly in Hull which is usually valued less since 1 crit can make high hull really sad. Iffy.

Bwing obviously has higher primary weapon, making getting in its face to dodge torps not a fool-proof tactic. Punisher can take Cluster Missiles, which depending on agi can be better or worse (but also offset the price entirely). Bwing can also take a cannon to do different roles, in fact unless im running a Bumperwing Keyan i never even use torps.

Same agility, neither have Evade, so same odds of being whacked.

Barrelroll is usually more powerful than boost because it lets you dodge some really mean arcs quite a bit, while Boost is better for turning or getting into range3 (either from too far out to attack or from range2 for bonuses to range). Again, subject to opinion which is better. And situation. Deathrain's barrelroll after bomb has its own issues, thats more to help you not run into your own **** bomb than anything else.

Considering the Bwing is also in a bit of a pickle in the meta, it isnt exactly an ideal comparison. But if we bumped the Punisher to 3Atk for say 1pt, it would indeed outperform a Bwing. But Bwings need a new fix too because the crew slot is niche and highly situational anyway, so im not worried about overshadowing a similar ship when the similar ship ALSO needs help. It'll get its turn

On the topic of bwing fix, i'd be fine giving them a "Cannon Expert" title where they can take cannons at 5pts cheaper minimum of 0. Gives them dirt cheap HLCs or free other cannons, but still cant fire both weapons so wouldnt be op. Plus theyre still easy to remove.

*cries blood because they compare daym sensor-stayontarget-farlander

to a BOMBER

what length do imps go to justify neccessity of epic buffs?

lol....

Bwing may not be a "bomber" but it basically does the same bloody role. It does it with heavy guns though instead of oodles of ordnance.

TIE Bomber getting 3atk would be stupid and make no sense. Its suppose to have the same guns a fighter does, but because of its size and bulk the engines cant move it as quick.

Punisher is not a bomber. Its faster, more durable, and deadlier (supposedly). If its suppose to strike where stardestoyers cant its bound to have some good main guns on there. Hell, take away my bombs to do it i dont care lol.

Theyre priced pretty evenly with their differences. Bwings just pull slightly ahead because they dont RELY on ordnance while punishers do.

It is supposed to be a HEAVY Bomber for Sheev's sake!

They have a TIE Heavy Bomber, its lighter than the Punisher.

I'm thinking of taking one of mine and using it's wings for a Phantom conversion.

You say broken, I say to expensive... It's just not a good fit with me.

Is the punisher broken?

Will it see competitive play again other than a rare appearance?

Have you seen a punisher list that is any good post FAQ?

Is it in need of a fix? what will make it more playable?

How is it borken, nobody is flying it.