This situation came up in tonight's casual FLGS game:

Vessery with TIE/D fired a Tractor Beam at Dengar, landed the beam, and then, before the next attack, since the Dengar player had initiative, Dengar made his retaliatory attack (As per Step 9 of the new Attack Timing Chart of FAQ 4.2.1). Dengar's attack dealt enough damage to kill Vessery. Is Vessery killed before he can make his second (Primary Weapon) attack?

We discussed this for a little while and, without coming to consensus, turned to another experienced player for a ruling who decided that since Step 9 of Vessery's initial (Tractor Beam) attack had not yet resolved, Vessery was able to stay on the board and make his second attack.

I guess this brings up a broader question I have with TIE/D: Does it trigger the "After Attacking" wording of Step 9, since it performs an attack? My view is yes, because the FAQ specifically mentions BTL-A4 Y-Wing which operates in exactly the same way, though the wording between it and TIE/D is different. If so, and TIE/D is resolved during Step 9 of the new FAQ, AND the TIE/D player does have initiative, do both attacks go off before Dengar has a chance to return fire? If the TIE/D does not have initiative, and Dengar's attack goes off first, and would destroy the TIE/D, is the TIE/D destroyed due to Dengar's "Attack" resolving its own Step 10 ("Remove Destroyed Ships"), or does it remain on the board until the TIE/D's initial Step 9 resolves?

Thank you for any help! If this is confusing - you're not alone

This situation came up in tonight's casual FLGS game:

Vessery with TIE/D fired a Tractor Beam at Dengar, landed the beam, and then, before the next attack, since the Dengar player had initiative, Dengar made his retaliatory attack (As per Step 9 of the new Attack Timing Chart of FAQ 4.2.1). Dengar's attack dealt enough damage to kill Vessery. Is Vessery killed before he can make his second (Primary Weapon) attack?ding of Step 9, since it performs an attack? My view is yes, because the FAQ specifically mentions BTL-A4 Y-Wing which operates in exactly the same way, though the wording between it and TIE/D is different. If so, and TIE/D is resolved during Step 9 of the new FAQ, AND the TIE/D player does have initiative, do both attacks go off before Dengar has a chance to return fire? If the TIE/D does not have initiative, and Dengar's attack goes off first, and would destroy the TIE/D, is the TIE/D destroyed due to Dengar's "Attack" resolving its own Step 10 ("Remove Destroyed Ships"), or does it remain on the board until the TIE/D's initial Step 9 resolves?

It is irrelevant whether Vessery lives. He cannot make his primary weapon attack if Dengar responds first.

Under the latest FAQ, each attack may trigger at most one additional attack from one player, period. The player who has Initiative has the first option to use a new-attack-creating response (once both players are done using post-attack responses that don't start new attacks). If that player uses such a response, the other player may not make an additional attack in response to the original.

This situation came up in tonight's casual FLGS game:

Vessery with TIE/D fired a Tractor Beam at Dengar, landed the beam, and then, before the next attack, since the Dengar player had initiative, Dengar made his retaliatory attack (As per Step 9 of the new Attack Timing Chart of FAQ 4.2.1). Dengar's attack dealt enough damage to kill Vessery. Is Vessery killed before he can make his second (Primary Weapon) attack?ding of Step 9, since it performs an attack? My view is yes, because the FAQ specifically mentions BTL-A4 Y-Wing which operates in exactly the same way, though the wording between it and TIE/D is different. If so, and TIE/D is resolved during Step 9 of the new FAQ, AND the TIE/D player does have initiative, do both attacks go off before Dengar has a chance to return fire? If the TIE/D does not have initiative, and Dengar's attack goes off first, and would destroy the TIE/D, is the TIE/D destroyed due to Dengar's "Attack" resolving its own Step 10 ("Remove Destroyed Ships"), or does it remain on the board until the TIE/D's initial Step 9 resolves?

It is irrelevant whether Vessery lives. He cannot make his primary weapon attack if Dengar responds first.

Under the latest FAQ, each attack may trigger at most one additional attack from one player, period. The player who has Initiative has the first option to use a new-attack-creating response (once both players are done using post-attack responses that don't start new attacks). If that player uses such a response, the other player may not make an additional attack in response to the original.

What about if Dengar was running -1 Adaptability and Vessery had VI making the pilot skill equal?

Vessery can make his second attack as it has triggered during Step 9, just as Dengar's ability has. And they must be resolved - both of them. If Dengar has inititiative, he makes his attack and then Vessery makes his attack.

It is irrelevant whether Vessery lives. He cannot make his primary weapon attack if Dengar responds first.

Under the latest FAQ, each attack may trigger at most one additional attack from one player, period. The player who has Initiative has the first option to use a new-attack-creating response (once both players are done using post-attack responses that don't start new attacks). If that player uses such a response, the other player may not make an additional attack in response to the original.

Where are you getting that? I don't believe this is correct - the wording in Step 9 is just laying out that the abilities happen in initiative order.

Vessery can make his second attack as it has triggered during Step 9, just as Dengar's ability has. And they must be resolved - both of them. If Dengar has inititiative, he makes his attack and then Vessery makes his attack.

Keep in mind, I am not disagreeing with you: The argument against this line of thinking, though, is that if Dengar has initiative and his attack resolves, it has its own Steps 1-10.

Although, looking at it again, I think I see:

1. Vessery's cannon attack is performed. In Step 9, Dengar's ability triggers first, as he has initiative.
2. This is not a separate attack, for the purposes of timing: That is, instead of "creating" a "new timing," you simply move to Step 1 of the sequence initiated by Vessery's attack, but with Dengar as the attacker now and Vessery as the defender.
3. Dengar's attack is performed, and Vessery is dealt damage that would destroy him. However, since Step 10 has not been performed yet, Vessery remains on the board.
4. Now, in Step 9, since Dengar has no more abilities to trigger, Vessery's TIE/D "After Attacking" ability triggers.
5. Much like Dengar's attack, this TIE/D attack "Returns to the top of the chart" and starts again at Step 1.
6. Vessery's primary weapon attack is performed. In step 9, no one has abilities left to trigger, so it is skipped.
7. Only now are we at Step 10, and Vessery is removed from the table.

This order would look the same if Vessery had initiative, only he would make his primary attack before Dengar's attack.

Does this make any sense? Do you believe I am interpreting the rules correctly?

Vessery can make his second attack as it has triggered during Step 9, just as Dengar's ability has.

Under the latest FAQ, each attack may trigger at most one additional attack from one player, period.

Where are you getting that? I don't believe this is correct - the wording in Step 9 is just laying out that the abilities happen in initiative order.

Straight from FAQ 4.2.1.

8. Abilities trigger that occur “after attacking” or “after defending” (that do not perform an attack)

i. Resolve abilities of player with initiative

ii. Resolve abilities of other player

9. Abilities trigger that occur “after attacking” or “after defending” that perform an attack (such

as BTL-A4 Y-wing, Dengar [ship], Gunner, etc.)

i. Resolve 1 ability of player with initiative

ii. If you did not resolve an ability in step (i) resolve 1 ability of other player

8.i. and 8.ii. say "abilities". Plural. 9.i. and 9.ii. say "1 ability" and can't both happen. Also, there are no flow chart arrows looping through this step over and over. You go through it once. There's no way for more than one new attack to be created in response to the one that just ended.

Additional:

This is not a separate attack, for the purposes of timing: That is, instead of "creating" a "new timing," you simply move to Step 1 of the sequence initiated by Vessery's attack, but with Dengar as the attacker now and Vessery as the defender.

I don't believe you immediately launch into resolving the new attack sequence straight out of 9.i. The flow arrows only loop from the end of Step 9 back to Step 1 if one of the two players responded within Step 9.

What about if Dengar was running -1 Adaptability and Vessery had VI making the pilot skill equal?

That doesn't change anything relevant here. Which ship gets to respond first depends on player Initiative, not Pilot Skill.

Both players get to resolve their attacks in initiative order.

The first time you get to step 9 both Dengar and TIE/D trigger. In 9i you then resolve the one that has initiative. After that attack you reach step 9 again. In 9i no attack happens so you go to 9ii and resolve the other attack that triggered after the initial attack.

The rules haven't changed with the new FAQ. Only the timing. You don't suddenly get cheated out of doing an attack. All the chart does is clarify the order.

The first time you get to step 9 both Dengar and TIE/D trigger. In 9i you then role the one that has initiative. After that attack you reach step 9 again.

You're in Step 9 (and 8) a second time, yes, but here's the question:

Are these steps only for responses to the attack that just ended, or are they to any attacks in this nested response chain that have happened so far?

I'd say it's the first. You're only correct if it's the second, or if you go through Steps 8 and 9 multiple times per attack (which isn't what the arrows show).

The chart flow could be an error, I admit, but if it is, it should be called out and fixed, not ignored.

The first time you get to step 9 both Dengar and TIE/D trigger. In 9i you then role the one that has initiative. After that attack you reach step 9 again.

You're in Step 9 (and 8) a second time, yes, but here's the question:Are these steps only for responses to the attack that just ended, or are they to any attacks in this nested response chain that have happened so far?I'd say it's the first. You're only correct if it's the second, or if you go through Steps 8 and 9 multiple times per attack (which isn't what the arrows show).The chart flow could be an error, I admit, but if it is, it should be called out and fixed, not ignored.

The arrows do show that. They send you back up to the top to work your way down. Everytime you hit step 9 the player with initiative gets the opportunity to resolve and action with and attack. If he doesn't do so, the other player gets to resolve and ability with an attack.

This situation came up in tonight's casual FLGS game:

Vessery with TIE/D fired a Tractor Beam at Dengar, landed the beam, and then, before the next attack, since the Dengar player had initiative, Dengar made his retaliatory attack (As per Step 9 of the new Attack Timing Chart of FAQ 4.2.1). Dengar's attack dealt enough damage to kill Vessery. Is Vessery killed before he can make his second (Primary Weapon) attack?ding of Step 9, since it performs an attack? My view is yes, because the FAQ specifically mentions BTL-A4 Y-Wing which operates in exactly the same way, though the wording between it and TIE/D is different. If so, and TIE/D is resolved during Step 9 of the new FAQ, AND the TIE/D player does have initiative, do both attacks go off before Dengar has a chance to return fire? If the TIE/D does not have initiative, and Dengar's attack goes off first, and would destroy the TIE/D, is the TIE/D destroyed due to Dengar's "Attack" resolving its own Step 10 ("Remove Destroyed Ships"), or does it remain on the board until the TIE/D's initial Step 9 resolves?

It is irrelevant whether Vessery lives. He cannot make his primary weapon attack if Dengar responds first.

Under the latest FAQ, each attack may trigger at most one additional attack from one player, period. The player who has Initiative has the first option to use a new-attack-creating response (once both players are done using post-attack responses that don't start new attacks). If that player uses such a response, the other player may not make an additional attack in response to the original.

And we have TWO players, hence each player has ONE additional attack from ONE player

First goes the initiative player, then the stacked attack goes off from player without initiative, then we resolve all the rest goodies like cleaning up and removing the dead bodies.

This may be not self explaining but between Step 9 and 10 there is a question:

Are you resolving an ability in Step 9?

This has something like 2 meanings here: the attack you performed was an ability of previous attacks step 9 AND the new attack that is being resolved in steps 9i or 9ii. Or maybe something in between... Anyway, this is how it works:

Hence you do cannon attack with a Defender, Dengar may shoot back and even trigger step 9 (if Gunner is his crew), Dengars second attack with Gunner, at this point we again come to step 9 and the answer after it is "YES", because we have 9ii - the Defender shots with primary weapon. Only after that attack the answer after step 9 is "NO" and you move to removing destroyed ships.

If we take the flow chart from top to bottom for the scenario: Vessery (Tie / D with tractor beam) attacks Dengar (with initiative).

Steps 1 - 8 : Vessery attacks with tractor beam

Step 9 : abilities triggered "after attacking" include Tie / D and Dengar's counter attack. Dengar has initiative, so he resolves his ability at 9-i.

Steps 1 - 8 : Dengar attacks

Step 9 : abilities triggered "after attacking" now only include the Tie / D. Dengar has no more abilities that can trigger, so Vessery triggers at 9-ii.

Steps 1 - 8 : Vessery performs his primary weapon attack

Step 9 : no abilities left to trigger

Step 10 : remove destroyed ships

Only one player can respond in Step 9. The Initiative player gets the first option to, and if he does, the other player can't.

That's not what the FAQ says. It says in 9.i that you resolve 1 ability of the player with initiative. In 9.ii it says if you did not resolve an ability in step (i) resolve 1 ability of the other player.

There is nothing in there that says if the player with init has no ability the other player loses the opportunity to perform an action, in fact it quite clearly says in the section I bolded that if the player with init doesn't perform an action the other players gets too.

I'll also point out that the very idea you somehow came to, defies how X-Wing in general works. There is never a case where by one player not being able to take an action of some sort, the other player loses their ability to do so, even though they have one.

Step 9 isn't well worded, but it's definitely not saying "Only one after-attack attack ability will ever happen."

Abilities trigger that occur “after attacking” or “after defending” that perform an attack (such as BTL-A4 Y-wing, Dengar [ship], Gunner, etc.)

i. Resolve 1 ability of player with initiative

ii. If you did not resolve an ability in step (i) resolve 1 ability of other player

Note it starts with "Abilities", plural. It's acknowledging that there may be more than one. The i and ii stuff is about making sure the player with initiative has finished resolving all Step-9 abilities before the player without initiative gets to resolve any Step-9 abilities.

If we take the flow chart from top to bottom for the scenario: Vessery (Tie / D with tractor beam) attacks Dengar (with initiative).

Steps 1 - 8 : Vessery attacks with tractor beam

Step 9 : abilities triggered "after attacking" include Tie / D and Dengar's counter attack. Dengar has initiative, so he resolves his ability at 9-i.

Ok.

Steps 1 - 8 : Dengar attacks

Step 9 : abilities triggered "after attacking" now only include the Tie / D. Dengar has no more abilities that can trigger, so Vessery triggers at 9-ii.

I disagree. This Step 9 is for Dengar's countershot. I believe only responses to that attack (such as Gunner on Dengar, for example) are legal here. Dengar's countershot is not a valid trigger for Vessery's TIE/D title.

Vessery would have to trigger his TIE/D title in his ion shot's Step 9.ii. He isn't allowed to do that the first time through (Dengar responded in 9.i., and the FAQ clearly forbids responses at both 9.i and 9.ii in the same step). You'd somehow have to pass through Step 9 twice for the original ion shot, with Dengar's player shooting back the first time and passing in the second. I don't see a way of doing that in the flowchart.

In any event, I've emailed FFG on this. I'll let you know what I hear.

Only one player can respond in Step 9. The Initiative player gets the first option to, and if he does, the other player can't.

That's not what the FAQ says. It says in 9.i that you resolve 1 ability of the player with initiative. In 9.ii it says if you did not resolve an ability in step (i) resolve 1 ability of the other player.

I think you read me exactly backwards. I said if the Initiative player does respond, the other player can't. You're responding as if I had said "doesn't" in there.

I think you read me exactly backwards. I said if the Initiative player does respond, the other player can't.

The box after step 9 tells you to go back to step 1 if you're resolving an ability in step 9. That means you have to go through the whole chart at least once more which includes step 9, at which point if the player with init has no action to perform the other player gets to perform one.

You don't go on to step 10 until both players have had a chance to perform all eligible actions.

And again your logic defies the way all the other rules work. There is nothing one player can do that prevents another player from taking some sort of action when they are eligible to take an action.

The problem is people not understanding a flow chart...

Dengar is not a new flow chart attack, it is the same, you go to the start of the same stupid flow chart of the same attack sequence, when you get back to step 9 it is the same step 9 as previous with the same trigger still waiting.

no where in the flow chart did it say, start a new attack sequence, so this is the same one. They did it with a flow chart exactly to solve these. Outside of a flow chart, with old "combat rules" you would be right, and this would have been a mess to fix.

The problem is people not understanding a flow chart...

Dengar is not a new flow chart attack, it is the same, you go to the start of the same stupid flow chart of the same attack sequence, when you get back to step 9 it is the same step 9 as previous with the same trigger still waiting.

no where in the flow chart did it say, start a new attack sequence, so this is the same one. They did it with a flow chart exactly to solve these. Outside of a flow chart, with old "combat rules" you would be right, and this would have been a mess to fix.

Muribundi is correct,

The entire flow chart is one attack event. If Dengar has initiative then he is the ship that activates in step 9i. When all of his abilities that activate in step 9 are done. Then we move to step 9ii, which is Vessery.

Step 9 dictates which ship goes first. 9i states "Resolve 1 ability of player with initiative". To resolve that ability we use the steps in the flow chart. Once that ability is resolved, the player with initiative can resolve the next ability that occurs in 9i (eg Gunner).

When we reach a point were the initiative player has no abilities to resolve we then come to 9ii "If you did not resolve an ability in step (i)

resolve 1 ability of other player". At this point the player with initiative was unable to resolve an ability in 9i, and the player without initiative gets resolve all of their step 9 abilities. This is where Vessery shoots his primary weapon. When ALL of that is done, we check step 10 for dead ships. Then it's time for the next ship to activate.