Step 9 in the new timing chart says that you resolve 1 ability of the player with initiative, and then if you did not resolve one the other player gets to resolve 1.

Does this mean if they have Gunner and Initiative and they attack my Dengar I cannot attack back, until after the second attack? If Dengar has initiative, does this mean Dengar triggers first, and that Gunner is unable to trigger?

Who is the "you" in step ii? Usually that refers to a ship, but here it seems to refer to the person with initiative.

Also, I should not have included R5-P8 in the title, since I figured out my question with reference to that (it is not an attack, so it resolves in step 8).

I believe you are correct in terms of how that would work with both scenarios.

First scenario:

-Player with initiative attacks Dengar and misses.

-Step 9: Gunner triggers because of initiative order.

-Back to step 1: resolve Gunner attack.

-Step 9: no ability for initiative player, so Dengar triggers.

-Back to step 1: resolve Dengar pilot ability attack.

Second scenario:

-Player attacks Dengar (who has initiative) and misses.

-Step 9: Dengar triggers because of initiative order.

-Back to step 1: resolve Dengar pilot ability attack.

-Step 9: Gunner triggers.

-Back to step 1: resolve Gunner attack.

I believe you are correct in terms of how that would work with both scenarios.

First scenario:

-Player with initiative attacks Dengar and misses.

-Step 9: Gunner triggers because of initiative order.

-Back to step 1: resolve Gunner attack.

-Step 9: no ability for initiative player, so Dengar triggers.

-Back to step 1: resolve Dengar pilot ability attack.

Second scenario:

-Player attacks Dengar (who has initiative) and misses.

-Step 9: Dengar triggers because of initiative order.

-Back to step 1: resolve Dengar pilot ability attack.

-Step 9: Gunner triggers.

-Back to step 1: resolve Gunner attack.

So your scenario 1 makes sense to me, but scenario 2 confuses me. I agree if gunner is on Dengar's ship, but if gunner was on the initially attacking ship (lets say the Ghost), then it seems that step nine only allows one thing to trigger, and the player with initiative gets the first option to do that. So after Dengar's retaliation Gunner does not trigger because the Ghost did not just attack and miss.

So

Ghost +Gunner shoots Dengar and misses. Dengar has initiative

step 9: Dengar gets to return fire

Back to step 1: carry out Dengar's attack

step 9, i:Dengar has nothing that will allow another attack

step 9, ii: The Ghost did not just attack, so Gunner does not trigger even though the Ghost previously missed an attack

It seemed to me like the flow chart just flows through, and does not result in any nesting of stages to go back and resolve later. Am I incorrect about this? If so, it seems like Gunner is not nearly as useful now that Dengar with Manaroo is so popular.

I was wondering something similar with Dengar vs a ywing with btl title and a tlt equipped

Does Dengar get to attack after ywing primary but before it attack with TLT?

I was wondering something similar with Dengar vs a ywing with btl title and a tlt equipped

Does Dengar get to attack after ywing primary but before it attack with TLT?

It is my understanding that Dengar gets to attack first if the Dengar player has initiative. What is not clear to me is if the TLT could fire after Dengar fired.

Even if the Dengar attack is nested so we return to step 9 ii after fully resolving the Dengar attack, 9ii says "if you did not resolve an ability in step(i) resolve 1 ability of the other player". I think "you" refers to the player with initiative, but since Dengar did resolve in 9i, then it seems that the BTL-A4 does not allow TLT to work. (But I would like someone to tell me I am wrong, because that seems to make Dengar really, really good).

I was wondering something similar with Dengar vs a ywing with btl title and a tlt equipped

Does Dengar get to attack after ywing primary but before it attack with TLT?

It looks like it's whoever has initiative. If the Y-wing has initiative it can do both attacks first and then Dengar shoots back, and if Dengar has initiative he shoots back between the Y-wing shots.

I was wondering something similar with Dengar vs a ywing with btl title and a tlt equipped

Does Dengar get to attack after ywing primary but before it attack with TLT?

It is my understanding that Dengar gets to attack first if the Dengar player has initiative. What is not clear to me is if the TLT could fire after Dengar fired.

Even if the Dengar attack is nested so we return to step 9 ii after fully resolving the Dengar attack, 9ii says "if you did not resolve an ability in step(i) resolve 1 ability of the other player". I think "you" refers to the player with initiative, but since Dengar did resolve in ii, then it seems that the BTL-A4 does not allow TLT to work. (But I would like someone to tell me I am wrong, because that seems to make Dengar really, really good).

From what it reads, since Dengar can only use his ability once, that ability then goes back up and works through the steps from 1-8 again, and when you get to step 9, dengar can't use his ability again, so it defers to the Y-wing who then gets to use BTL to shoot back.

Funnily enough, this means now that the Y-wing can always shoot both shots, and things like R5-P8 and Dengar can't stop him from making his second attack, since the stuff procs on step 9, and ships are only removed at step 10.

How does this play out if Dengar scores a killing blow during the Gunner attack? Do you still get to take the second shot due to simultaneous fire?

I do see your point about Gunner on the other ship (not Dengar), but this is how I interpret it. So let's say the initial attacker, without initiative, wants to use BTL-A4 TLT or Gunner on Dengar. We get to step 9.i, and Dengar (with initiative), uses the pilot ability attack. We then proceed to step 9 again. In step 9.i, we check the Dengar player - no more abilities. Step 9.ii, we check the initial attacker ("other player"), and he or she wants to trigger a TLT attack or Gunner. Although he or she did not just attack, I don't see anything about Dengar's ability that stops their trigger from happening. In other words, I think that trigger still exists, but Dengar just puts his pilot ability in the middle of it (as Mediocrevan said - I agree).

In this case, Dengar's ability resolved on 9.i the first time through step 9, so the second time around (barring anything else), we would proceed to 9.ii, which would be the other player (the one with BTL-A4 or Gunner), who would then have the opportunity to resolve an ability from the "after attacking" trigger, since it's all part of the same attack (it all happens before step 10).

In absence of a true clarification on this, that's how I would rule it in a tournament, just because the player without initiative should still have the opportunity to resolve an ability, and I don't see any specific text that suggests that that player would lose his or her trigger.

Hope that makes sense, and is helpful!

I am assuming you meant if Dengar kills the BTL-A4 Y-Wing or ship with Gunner on his pilot ability attack - do they still get their TLT or Gunner shot? Either way, if my interpretation is correct, then yes - you would resolve all the triggers in step 9 before removing any ships. So any additional attacks would happen until there are no more triggers in step 9, then ships would be removed due to simultaneous fire.

How does this play out if Dengar scores a killing blow during the Gunner attack? Do you still get to take the second shot due to simultaneous fire?

From what it reads, since Dengar can only use his ability once, that ability then goes back up and works through the steps from 1-8 again, and when you get to step 9, dengar can't use his ability again, so it defers to the Y-wing who then gets to use BTL to shoot back.

Funnily enough, this means now that the Y-wing can always shoot both shots, and things like R5-P8 and Dengar can't stop him from making his second attack, since the stuff procs on step 9, and ships are only removed at step 10.

Thanks Mediocrevan and FranquesEnbiens. Since you both agree, and since I think this is how it should be I will play that way, but I am still confused by the language used.

This is where my confusion comes from, if we are in step 9 after Dengar's retaliation abilities that occur after attacking or after defending trigger. The player with initiative gets the first opportunity, if they don't take it the other person does. So after Dengar retaliates and they have no abilities to trigger, now the other player get the opportunity to resolve an ability. Dengar just attacked, so BTL-A4 does not trigger since that triggers if you just performed a primary weapon attack. SO if we now go back up the nested steps and are back at step 9ii for the first Y-wing attack (so after y-wing primary and degnar attack) it says that if an ability didn't resolve in 9i the other player gets to resolve an ability, but Dengar did resolve at 9i, which would mean this statement is not true, so BTL-A4 doesn't trigger.

My confusion could be because I don't really know who the "you" is. If "you" are the y-wing, then the other player (i.e. not you) gets a chance to resolve an ability even though they did in i. If "you" are Dengar then you already resolved an ability in i, so nothing resolves in ii. I think the "you" should be the player with initiative, but then it still means if something triggered in i, you don't get to do anything in ii. which would really suck.

Because you never exited the combat phase, the Y-wing still has an opportunity "after attacking" to resolve, even though Dengar just attacked. You need to resolve all the abilities in the combat phase, this just determines the order in which they resolve.

To word it differently, the player with initiative resolves all of their "after attacking" effects before the player without initiative. They still all resolve.

I agree that it is a little confusing.

I think part of where your confusion comes from is the 9.i and 9.ii thing. My reading of it is that those are meant to be looked at as separate trips through the sequence. Thus, when you get to 9.i the second time, Dengar doesn't trigger anything because this is a new 9.i. Therefore when you go to 9.ii, nothing triggered on 9.i (this being a new trip through step 9), so the other player gets a chance to trigger something.

If 9.ii depended on something having triggered on 9.i at ANY point during the attack, then the player without initiative would never get a chance to do anything. That would mean that if the TLT or Gunner player had initiative, then Dengar would never trigger, since that pilot ability would now be on 9.ii.

Does that make sense?

Exactly, thanks for putting it clearly!

Because you never exited the combat phase, the Y-wing still has an opportunity "after attacking" to resolve, even though Dengar just attacked. You need to resolve all the abilities in the combat phase, this just determines the order in which they resolve.

To word it differently, the player with initiative resolves all of their "after attacking" effects before the player without initiative. They still all resolve.

I agree that it is a little confusing.

I think part of where your confusion comes from is the 9.i and 9.ii thing. My reading of it is that those are meant to be looked at as separate trips through the sequence. Thus, when you get to 9.i the second time, Dengar doesn't trigger anything because this is a new 9.i. Therefore when you go to 9.ii, nothing triggered on 9.i (this being a new trip through step 9), so the other player gets a chance to trigger something.

If 9.ii depended on something having triggered on 9.i at ANY point during the attack, then the player without initiative would never get a chance to do anything. That would mean that if the TLT or Gunner player had initiative, then Dengar would never trigger, since that pilot ability would now be on 9.ii.

Does that make sense?

Yes, it seemed to me the way it was written is that initiative mattered a ton, and people without initiative never got to do anything unless the player with initiative didn't have anything to trigger. I just needed help making sure there was a way to read it so that the second time through, the y-wing still could count as "after performing a primary weapon attack".

Thanks!

Yeah, it's good to talk this stuff out and see how we interpret it!

Just got confirmation from FFG:

Just got confirmation from FFG:

Steps 1–8 are what constitute a single attack. Step 9 allows for other attacks to happen. Step 9 will basically “hold" all of the abilities that have not resolved yet. Although Dengar’s attack is the one that just happened, the other ability is still waiting to resolve hence the slightly different phrasing of 8.i and 8.ii versus 9.i and 9.ii. Since you are only resolving 1 of them, you will come back to resolve others later.

The use of “you” in the box after Step 9 is generically “a player” resolving an ability.

Thanks a bunch!

Would really only matter if someone got Blinded pilot.

In other words: Initiative only decides who resolves FIRST, not who resolves at all.

I think you can assume all habilities triggered at the same time go to a pool of habilities triggered, then the way you empty that pool is by initiative deciding which one to execute at a time.

In mtg you got the stack, which makes it resolve in order. Here everything triggers at the same time but goes to a pool from which players pick which one to resolve at a time.

So if gunner triggered with initiative Dengar would then get 2 attacks in a row back? Provided he isn't dead?

If Dengar has initiative and triggers his own Gunner off a miss from his pilot ability attack, you'll do the Gunner attack in step 9.i (even if he died to the initial attack, since he's not removed until step 10, which you would get to after resolving all the triggers that occur in 9). Does that answer your question?

I think Talonbane Cobra's question was if the other play had gunner, but Dengar had initiative. So lets say Han with Gunner.

I think it would happen as follows:

Han shoots and misses.

Dengar has initiative and returns fire first.

Then Gunner allows Han to shoot again.

Dengar triggers again, allowing a return shot.

I don't think he was asking about Gunner on Dengar, since you would really only want to use Gunner for the last ship that would attack Dengar, since otherwise you could not attack again.