Love the game. Kudos to Mr. Little et al, great forward thinking design. Your offices must stink from all the sacred cow remains!

However... but... spears!?!?!? WTF?

I need to fix spears before my players cotton on to their uber staus. I am prettry sure about CR 2 to CR 3, but it needs another ding. Basically looking to bring it in line with hand weapon.... more versatile and fast but:

Option 1: Less damage when used one handed (leaning towards this).

Option 2: Invent a new weapon qualtity that dings it back to hand weapon level.

Thoughts? Other solutions?

PA

maybe the DR but add in some Pierce?

TBH I think I am going to do a complete re-haul of the weapons table for my game

I'm making the spear 5/3 fast, +1 two-handed.

It can't benefit from many of the action cards as it's not a two handed weapon,
nor a one handed weapon. No thunderous blow, backstab, etc.

Only actions that can be reasonably described as thrusting attacks can be used.
No reckless cleave.

Only shields can be used in the off hand, as the spear description hints at.
No double strike.

A spear and shield is a good combination, as it should be.
But will be more limited than a hand weapon and shield/off-hand weapon.

A halberd is the better two-handed weapon, 6/2 v. 6/3.
Plus you can use it as a two-handed spear, 6/3 fast.

I am making it 4/2 fast. 5/2 fast if used two handed

that's only a minor change to it's stats and the rule set,which for me is important.

I don't really agree with the idea that it can't benefit from "many" of the action cards, or that no other weapon can be used in the off hand (spear and net anyone?)

halberds depending on grip as either 6/2 or 5/2 fast, which seems fine

and i think 5/3 for a hand weapon vs 4/2 fast for a spear seems a tactical comparable choice, neither option is over powered compared to the other

Why the hate over the spear. The spear is a highly effective weapon it has been for centuries. Easy to use, keeps you at a distance, can do devastating damage, takes almost no training and is cheap to make. If your players are using it to much for your liking give them a taste of it at the hands of their opponents.

Kryyst said:

But how will that solve the problem? Everyone will just be using spears...

Give them a disadvantage if the enemy is inside the spears reach, as thats the way to counter their effectivness in reality.

Blustar said:

Blustar said:

1. Bad guys that hide in polite society; try getting that spear past the Count's guards.

2. Combat in corridors.

3. Flank them; there's a reason the shieldwall developed.

4. Don't tell them that spears are good. PC's want characters with swords, battle axes and pistols - spears aren't heroic enough.

5. Break the spear shaft at every opportunity...fall down stairs, your spear breaks...parry a blow, your spear breaks...leave it against a wall, drunk bloke falls into it, you spear breaks.

Sorted.

It's not a problem. Spears really are better than hand weapons; but only in a fight, I think. Except maybe they break more often.. have it break on a Chaos Star.

In all other situations, I think it's more convenient to not be carrying your spear everywhere.

Mordenthral said:

This - spears break easily and aren't peticularly handy to walk around with in a town (or in cramped tunnels) and most people won't allow you to bring one inside.

And if you want a weakness make it break on a chaos star like suggested or allow an opponent to break it if he gets enough boons (2?) on an attack roll if someone tries to parry with one.

I understand some balance arguments against the spear. But the point is that the spear isn't always going to be useful depending on situation, style whatever. Some people won't take spear just because it doesn't fit their character concept. Unless every single weapon has exactly the same properties the neutering the spear will only move them to some other weapon favorite. The point being characters who base every character choice on numeric superiority will do so no mater what you do. They'll just find another place to max out. Nerfing one weapon isn't going to solve your problem.

There has already been plenty of good reasons to offset why everyone isn't walking around with only a spear. There are plenty of reasons not to use a spear.

New trait - Fragile - breaks on a Chaos Star. Sold.

Thanks for the assist. Now to devise ways to prevent PCs from carrying ten spears each... sigh... power gamers trapped in a naratavist game
! ;-)

I like that trait. It could also be used in other weapons too. Poison wind globes anyone?

Paranoid Android said:

Or, you could add a Breakable X (similar to Unreliable X) to show HOW breakable it is, then roll that many chaos stars to break it.

So a spear might be Breakable 2, whereas a Halberd may be Breakable 3 and a Lance might be Breakable 1.

NezziR said:

That's an elegant solution.

Paranoid Android said:

Paranoid Android said:

Erm, spears aren't all that problematic in cramped conditions... in fact, in most cases, they're a lot better than a sword and, especially, an axe or a hammer/mace. Axes, hammers and maces need to be swung, swords can be swung or stabbed, a spear in cramped conditions means that you got a nasty point of metal that your enemy will have REAL trouble maneuvering around (since the conditions are cramped) at a distance from you that can't be covered by a normal hand weapon...

JacobKlunder said:

That is true, thats why spears often where used to defend breaches in walls or other narrow gateways...

I would say again that the spears greatest weakness is if you can get behind its edge, and there for either give an disadvantage to the wielder or a bonus to the attacker.

KjetilKverndokken said:

Yeah, spears are great for keeping your opponent at bay, but if they get inside you, you're in trouble, especially if using it one-handedly, where changing grip quickly isn't all that easy. Thus, shield and spear is a nasty combination.

JacobKlunder said:

JacobKlunder said:

ragnar63 said:

Well, I'd say that in situations where you're cramped enough to penalize a spear, you're cramped enough to penalize hand weapons too - you're basicly in dagger, hand axe and shortsword territory rather than battle-axes and swords.

If the place they're in can house a man, it can house a spear, and swinging a sword does take up more room. And spears aren't THAT easy to break.

Rather than make up a rule for every single situation you might find a spear in (less neat than a rapier in noble society, cramped conditions, somehow dictating when an opponent has made it close to the spear-user), it's easier to just lower the spear's damage by 1, and encourage the use of other weapons.

Particularly when any situational trait you come up with for spear would also apply to halberd at least as easily, which means it stays totally useless compared to a spear.

They really ought to have lumped spears in with the rest of the hand weapons - if a sword, axe, mace and club can have identical stats, then a spear shouldn't be that different. But I guess it's a holdover from earlier editions/the result of spears being dfifferent in the wargame.

Not sure that I agree that a halberd is as fragile as a spear. Surely the "haft" of a halberd is thick than a spear's, which can be thrown?

Juriel said:

yep, as much as i like the concept of a new breakable quality, I am lowering the damage by 1 and be done with it.