I've been doing some research on the fluff and met up with some pretty interesting stuff:

Rules Binding the Officio Assassinorum

Following the Age of Apostasy, led by Goge Vandire, came the Wars of Vindication within the Office of Assassins itself. The Officio had become riddled with corruption and the Grand Master of Assassins brought it to its knees in order to purge it. The Officio was reduced to ruins and needed a full reorganisation. Following a thorough investigation, Inquisitor Jaeger deemed that a special order of the Inquisition was needed to monitor and to control the Officio much more closely. His proposal was accepted and the Ordo Sicarius was created, to monitor the Office for signs of corruption and to expose and to punish the responsible parties.

At the Inquisition's request, the Officio Assassinorum also agreed to the following changes:

• The Assassin temples were re-distributed to various locations, so that should one of them be corrupted by alien influence, daemonancy, or heresy, the others would remain untainted.
• Any assassination order requires a two-thirds majority vote of assent from the Senate of the High Lords of Terra.
• All assassinations are followed by a detailed report of the mission, subject to Inquisitorial inspection at any time.
• All assassins, with exceptions of those of the Eversor Temple, undergo regular repeated psycho-doctrination under the eye of the Inquisition if deemed necessary.

The interesting thing here is the two-thirds majority vote of assent. Even if the Senate gathers every day of every year to vote on things I cannot realistically believe that they spend most of their time assessing and voting on assassination orders. After all, they are supposed to keep every aspect of the whole empire running.

Okay, lets assume that they would sign up one assassination order each day. This would mean only 365 death sentences each year. Even assuming that most orders take a long time to set up and execute you won't need that many assassins for so few jobs. Taking in account the huge size of the Imperium it all feels a bit... Problematic. So what is your opinion on how does this chain of command really work? How many assassins are there in Officio? How many missions can you actually expect a single assassin to complete in, say, year?

Polaria said:

i believe the original source comes from the first Assassins Codex, if i recall.

quite simply. it wouldn't be thus. the Senate has better things to do. ordering the death of millions on a planet including the rich and elite is as nothing to them. so much so, that power is not exclusive to that body. why bother all the hand wringing for the sake of one or a few ppl. they may convene for ultra-special cases..a Lord Inquisitor, an Admiral, sending in more than one assassin against a Navigator House, etc. an Ork boss, a tech heretic, a minor House Lord, a Chaos champion, Eldar Farseer, etc..I don't think they would even bother. and I don't think it would be in the purview of that kind of political entity.

in our history, those political entities that oversee assassination and assassination teams consist of a very small group of ppl that are in the NEED to know. considering how the Imperium handles affairs, Senators are not in that category. the Americans have the Senate Oversight Commitee on Intelligence. but they have no real power to vote on who gets the hatchet, they only have to be informed. and even that is easily evaded. the President is not even needed to sign the pen on every name nor does the CIA need to get approval for MOST assignments. this is actually extremely liberal, most countries have no such oversight at all. obviously, this is the case for most potential targets. heads of state or their cabinet ministers is another matter altogether...or the case of Osama bin Laden (because of Saudi family connections) in the 90s.

the MOSSAD, reportedly, tries ppl in absentia. the potential target has a defense lawyer, a prosecutor and a judge. from what i understand these are all intelligence operatives and do not hail from the legal profession proper. if found guilty, the order is sent up to the MOSSAD teams for termination. the hit teams and those that have signed the order are all that know.

handing off termination assignments are supposed to be classified and covert. that is an awful lot of ppl with access to that kind of knowledge. with that many ppl involved in the loop, i'd warrant alot of the intended targets would be fleeing for their lives. human beings aren't known to keep secrets very well.

IMPERIAL ASSASSINS. training an assassin whether they be of superhuman or within the bounds of standard human ability is no mean feat. truly capable assassins are very far and very few in between. how many would there be is a tough guess. we don't know just how many Temples there are of the Assassinorum (we only know of 4 with 2 more? being mentioned but never detailed), nor how many subtemples of each major temple. (how many callidus temples there may be spread throughout the Imperium.) nor how many proxies are used by the temples (how many assassins NOT directly related to the temple are used. DH goes with the perspective that a number of assassins may be proxies to certain tamples of the Assassinorum. take your pick. 50K, 100k, 1M? who knows.

CHAIN OF COMMAND. the information to even recieve a kill order comes from somewhere. Acolyte agents in the field? the Deparmento Munitorum after having recieved an intelligence report from scout unit or storm trooper, after having been assessed by a Tactician (Intelligence officer). or an imperial spy. it can come from any credible Imperial agency. it will primarily come from some nobody..a contact in the field or someone working the field. that will pass that information up to his superior as intelligence on persons of special interest.

that data will then be passed further up to be desseminated to regional subordinates of the Grandmaster of Assassins. these folks prolly oversee not just assassination requests but read all manners of intelligence reports to be proactive. in my mind the assassins serve a dual purpose..not just killing but the gathering of high value intelligence considering their superlative skills of infiltration, concealment, extreme self discipline and survival skills. a callidus can get alot further in infiltration than standard human spy potentially.

these regional assassin masters will either have the right to dispatch a particular order to whatever temple they see fit or in close proximity to the crisis. IF, AND ONLY IF the target is of controversial nature, this information is sent then to the grandmaster of assassins for his ultimate sanction. the grandmaster will bring this to the High Lords of Terra and they will ultimately decide if the hatchet job is a go. so informed the grandmaster then dispatches a communique to the regional assassin master stating..the Emperor wills it to be so...

NUMBER OF ASSIGNMENTS. they take as long as they take. a callidus may be sent in to monitor a House to asses the viability and reason for assassination as to give an iron clad case. this may take weeks, months. they may be sent to assassinate and replace a merchantile head for years. the vindicare may lie in wait for weeks assessing his target. he may be in a warzone...and get numerous kill orders..or subsequent targets of opportunity. even the Eversor as much of a blunt instrument he may be to many may be active in the field for weeks taking out numerous targets. might be a day might be months, maybe years for the completion of one assignment.

much of this material was written without their being common sense attached to it because it wasn't written with the need for it to be thought out. 40K as a tabletop game precluded such deeper development, it simply wasn't needed. once you move things over into an RPG element where these details need to be worked out, it starts to fall apart pretty quickly. its the main reason why I am not a rabid defender of the canon of 40K. tabletop fluff needs ALOT less detailing of the fluff than an RPG does.

Well, as I already noted in the "Campaign Needs A War" thread, Templum Assassins are rare and reserved for truly meaningful conflicts that might also warrant Exterminatus.

Regarding the Senate, that's relatively easy - the senators will likely have a few aides that are tasked with looking through assassination proposals and compiling a recommendation for their lord on whether to vote for or against them. Thus, you could easily have a few dozen such proposals handled in a day.

As for the number of active Operatives... I'd consider a thousand per temple about right, with perhaps ten times that number in various stages of training or selection (and uncountable numbers in various death cults and other organizations screened by the Officio for potential). Yes, it's an awfully small number considering the number of worlds in the Imperium, but as I said, Temple Assassins are just that rare and most Imperial institutions will have their own assassination cadres.

Cifer said:

Personally I'd take my guess on actual temple assassin number being around a thousand or so per temple. However, even if I'm sure the Senate does have people preparing the proposals I do not think they will handle dozens of execution order daily. Our modern legislators have people preparing proposals for vote and still even on a very good sitting congress can manage a couple of dozen items of legislation each day. Tops. I don't think High Lords will spend all the day thinking about who to kill next.

I'm actually starting to think the assassination orders are only needed for killing Imperial citizens. I can't really bring myself to believe Officio needs a written permission to kill aliens. Its war after all.

Of course, this would raise rather interesting questions... about "Excommunicate Traitoris"

Personally I'd take my guess on actual temple assassin number being around a thousand or so per temple. However, even if I'm sure the Senate does have people preparing the proposals I do not think they will handle dozens of execution order daily. Our modern legislators have people preparing proposals for vote and still even on a very good sitting congress can manage a couple of dozen items of legislation each day. Tops. I don't think High Lords will spend all the day thinking about who to kill next.

Apart from the fact that "dozens" was probably hyperbole, I don't think it's impossible. Assuming that the actual evaluation is already prepared well before the debate (and the High Lord doesn't know much about the target anyway), it's not like it can't be handled as "Next point of order: Assassination proposal Alpha-3856. Those in favor, press the green button on the terminals. Thank you, M'lords. Next point of order:"

I'm actually starting to think the assassination orders are only needed for killing Imperial citizens. I can't really bring myself to believe Officio needs a written permission to kill aliens. Its war after all.

I don't think so. The bureaucracy orders are there both for the limitation of power and for the conservation of ressources. However, mandates handed out might be somewhat broad as in "Vindicare Assassin 853 and supporting staff are attached to the Crusade of Lord General Highandmighty and are sanctioned to take out Ork targets at their discretion and the General's orders, with the primary target being Waaaaaaaghboss Bigguy".

If rumors have it there will be some rules for Temple Assassins in Ascension....perhaps also an additional upgrade for the Moritat...

Cifer said:

Cifer said:

while i'm usually inclined to believe nothing is impossible in 40K. it is highly improbable that the Senate would be able to make any such decisions so readily and so quickly. they don't make any decision making process efficient. or rarely so. IF and I very much doubt they care to even look at orders concerning xenos breeds, they'll press your button without even looking at the order. concerning Imperial citizens would need a closer examination, at least to some of the senate which could bog down the process. no. which WOULD bog down the process. of that there is no doubt in my mind.

the senate has a vast myriad of matters to attend. many a hotly debated topic concerning trade, matters of diplomacy, planetary tithes, who knows. assassination orders to be deliberated by such a body, fly in the face of common sense. as per the bureaucracy orders being there for the limitation of power and the conservation of resources...that would be in the direct mandate of the Ordo Sicarius.

another matter which needs to be considered as I mentioned in my previous post...SECURITY. you make an such operations less secret, less covert when so many ppl bcome aware of this kind of operation. we shouldn't assume for a moment that all these ppl/xenos getting the hatchet are all bad guys that deserve what they get. these 'bad guys' are most likely very human AND influential. men and women that have made very powerful friends, allies, contacts...the same ppl that may very well sit on that same Senate body. the same ppl that might tip off potential targets and provide them aid and shelter.

no. assassination orders are probably one of the few matters in the Imperium that is streamlined for the most speedy removal of the problem. the Senate is not such and never will be in my campaign. the process would have a number of built in mechanisms to limit the abuse of powers and wanton usage of termination assets. those whom sift the intelligence, sector/subsector assassination masters, the Grandmaster, the Ordos and maybe the High Lords of Terra.

one small factor that Cifer did touch on was the usage of other asassination tools being used by Imperial institutions. it would stand to reason that other agencies would develop their own assets similar to the Temple assassins or the death cults. they most likely will not be as well trained and kitted out as agents of the Assassinorum but may very well rival death cult members. some may exceed them depending on their training methodology.

the 40K universe is massive...and i would surmise that only the most major of institutions, inner mechanisms, personalities have been touched on. there is ALOT of room for new organizations and the rebuilding older institutions. lets not get too caught up in the 'cause GW/FFG says so' routine.

while i'm usually inclined to believe nothing is impossible in 40K. it is highly improbable that the Senate would be able to make any such decisions so readily and so quickly. they don't make any decision making process efficient. or rarely so. IF and I very much doubt they care to even look at orders concerning xenos breeds, they'll press your button without even looking at the order. concerning Imperial citizens would need a closer examination, at least to some of the senate which could bog down the process. no. which WOULD bog down the process. of that there is no doubt in my mind.

Er... no. The senate would come down to the button pressing since the actual decision making would already have been made beforehand by the advisors of the senators.

Well one of the 12 High Lords (and one of the 9 "De Facto" High Lords) are the Grand Master of the Officio Assassenorum, I assume that far most of the matter will be handled by him .

the liegekiller said:

Actually reading through your explanation I think you are probably confusing senate with US Senate or some equivalent modern democratically elected body. However, Senatorum Imperialis is nothing like it. Its THE highest governing body of the imperium and it includes only 12 men, none of which are, mind you, democratically elected "joe-the-average-politicians".

The following nine (9) offices are almost always represented as High Lords:

The Master of the Administratum
The Inquisitorial Representativea
The Ecclesiarch of the Adeptus Ministorum
The Fabricator-General of the Adeptus Mechanicus
The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites
The Paternoval Envoy of the Navigators
The Master of the Astronomican
The Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum
The Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica

The remaining three (3) positions are most likely to be filled from among the following powerful leaders:

Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar
Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard
Cardinal(s) of the Holy Synod of Terra
The Abbess Sanctorum of the Adepta Sororitas
Captain-General of the Adeptus Custodes
Chancellor of the Estate Imperium
The Speaker for the Chartist Captains

If someone would even suggest that you cannot give full access to Officio Assassinorum mission details to these guys, then that someone would probably be excommunicated and executed of heresy and high treason in seconds.

Another thing to take into account here is that Officio Assassinorum isn't anything like modern earth special ops. First of all, almost all government sanctioned assassinations in modern earth are of such nature that in Imperium they would be handled by Imperial Guard Stormtroopers, Inquisition, mercenary Death Cult assassins or some other organization. With OA we are talking about shots that change whole worlds or sectors. If I had to find a historical near-equivalent to the type of operations OA is used then I'd say in last 100 years on erath we've had only two:

Archduke Ferdinand (except that OA would have done it fully knowing that it will start a 4 year long war, killing tens of millions and changing the world map forever... and they would have needed only one assassin who would never have been caught)

Operation Valkyrie (except OA would have succeeded)

Things like attempts on Castro or Hussein or hunting down Osama are simply too local and too small operations for OA. When you take into account that and the fact that OA was reined after it had almost destroyed itself in Wars of Vindication I'd say the tight control exercised on it by Senatorum Imperialis is logical and justified.

It is quite important to note that true Temple Assassins are only used for the most difficult and extreme missions. This is in and of itself a rather impressive statement, but think about what it implies from the mindset of a high ranking Imperial official. These are not the routine kill orders that are signed in countless numbers acorss the Imperium on a daily basis, these are the kills that are the stuff of legend! Or rather, kills that WOULD be legendary if anyone ever heard a word about them!

It is a common practice that the Imperial Guard (and for that matter, just about every militant agency within the Imperium) to organize "Kill Teams" to tackle special missions, suicide-ops, assassination, heretec supression, sabotage and whatever else comes up. This practice is even relatively routine for the Adeptus Astartes, and we all know just how rare and prescious the Space Marines are in a big hostile galaxy. The Adeptus Arbites have special agents that serve as solo Judge/Executioner hybrids (sort of like The Punisher from comic books, but legally sanctioned and carrying a badge). The Adeptus Mechanicus are notorious for performing routine inter-cranial alterations and mind-wipes on their servants, and that is just the Skitarii... What do you suppose these paranoid keepers of secret knowledge do to the specially prepared assassins that "totally don't exist, nope, never seen one."?

To put this simply, the Imperium has countless agents of death and destruction at it's collective fingertips and nearly limitless ways to make annoying people go away in permanent ways. Only when a kill is beyond the reach of ALL of these professional death-dealers of a death-obsessed galaxy-spanning Imperium are the Officio Assassinorum unleashed on the target. When the most brutal and callous killers of the Imperium declare a target to be impossible, then a single Temple Assassin steps in and makes things look easy. Even in 40K, this is going to be a rare event. Space Marine chapters have been known to teleport squads of Terminator Tactical Dreadnought Armour equipped battle-brothers directly inside bunkers and other "unreachable" locations to kill critical targets. The OA are for when something like that just seems a bit too failure-prone....

I agree with ZillaPrime. I seriously doubt that there are an assassenation order given every day even in as big a place as the Imperium it could be as much as one per week or month to once a year or even less often the primary targets for OA operatives are things like:

Corrupted Gorvenors (often when the kills must seem to be an accident or the like)

Daemon possessed officials or powrfull cult leaders (including Chaos Lords, astartes or otherwise and in one case a chaos primarch)

Xenos Commanders (Eldar Farseers, Tau Ethereals, Ork Warlords, Genestealer Broodlords etc)

Alpha+ level Psykers

in Dark Heresy their targets would likely include The False Prophets of the Pilgrams of Hayte, the Shroud Council of the Pale Throng and the like.

And while they may not be invincable they are certiantly a deadly and far more subtle and discret weapon than the Imperial Guard and Astartes.

If we look back in time on how the concept of Officio Assassinorum has evolved we find that in the grandmother of 40k universe, the original Warhammer 40000: Rogue Trader, the Imperial Assassins were individuals of vast power and legendary skills, equal in both rarity and status to Rogue Traders and Inquisitors. When the game evolved more and more into straight table-top wargame the assassin tempels were invented and assassins became a bit less legendary creatures. Rare and highly-effective, but clearly not the hand-picked one-of-a-kind individuals of the original WH40K:RG. The lore considering how OA took the orders only from High Lords is WH40K:RG stuff and was reinforced and confirmed again in 2nd and 3rd editions.

For most part DH gamemasters could pretty much do like I do, keep to the lore by effectively ignoring it. I mean I never ever have to actually consider if High Lords would order this assassination or not because 99% of the Imperiums assassins I am using in my games are death cultist instead of temple assassins and thus outside the rules binding OA.

Now we come to today and Ascension. In Ascension one of the new career paths is a full temple assassin (Vindicare) and thus if you allow the use of this career path to players you effectively have to take a stance on lore and how you are portraying it in your own campaign.

Were I to gamemaster purely according to WH40K:RG lore I'd say the whole Imperium has maybe a couple of hundred OA assassins, a few kill-orders a year, all kill-orders are monitored closely case-by-case by High Lords and single OA assassin might never kill more than one or (at maximum) half a dozen targets during his or her whole career. However, character like that would be fully uncompatible with any DH group (ascended or not) because he or she would pretty much be a solo creature, taking orders only from High Lords and takings literally years to stalk his or her target before moving in for the kill.

So effectively I must scale portray OA a bit differently and getting to know how other GMs think about this is what this thread is all about. The system of giving the orders and how common they are is important because it gives me some scope on how many temple assassins are out there and how much limitations I should set on any future Vindicare Assassins I may see in my games.

Polaria said:

i am aware of the high lords of Terra and the members, that is why I referred to them at the end of my list of folks that would be in the know. i wasn't aware they were called the Senatorum Imperialis hence the confusion on my part.

i would never consider the OA to be modern day special operators.

taken from the 1st Codex Assassins these are the HVTs they will engage and how they can be used.

Vindicare assassin specialise in vengeance and revenge killings...the skills of the Vindicare asre commonly used to slay those who use mob rule and rousing oratory, replying to sedition with the seemingly divine retribution of an invisible, untraceable sniper. Many false messiahs have fallen...rebellious politicans and revolutionary leaders who speak out against the wisdom of the Imperium constantly fear being cut down on the rostrum...Vindicare assassins are always in great demand to support Imperial forces on the battlefields..overly successful alien commanders and dangerously powerful psykers often fall beneath the cross-hairs...it goes on to tell a quick story of Lammas campagn in which a Vindicare stalled an Eldar advance killing Exarchs, Warlocks and support crews...another goes on to tell of a Vindicare killing the 'self-declared Prophet Elisiah'

Callidus assassinare often used when the opvert interference by the Imperium would upset the intricate balance of power maintained by the High Lords..theyare the ultimate tool against the over-ambitious who use diplomacy, bribes and corruption to further their position...the callidus uses tchniques that can go far beyond that of simply killing the perpetrator. the Callidus temple untertakes many covert operations which involve an assassin infiltrating an enemy civilisation for months or even years. their aim is to get close to the target..the mission can range from simply influencing important decisions to eliminating the target at a key moment. they also have battlefield applications infiltrating the enemy, eliminating individuals and taking their place. ashort story tells of a callidus killing Lord Siltarius a rebel.

the Eversor is used for shock and terror tactics, instilling fear of Imperial retribution into the hearts and minds of all those who hold positions of power..primarily employed against rebel governors who have a plan to move against the Imperium witha large force of renegades. rather than meet this threat with a huge and costly war that will use up precious resources and probably leave whole planets ravaged, the High Lords will send in an eversor...and eversor rarely has one target...his mission will be to rip the heart out of the whole rebel operation

the culexus is pretty simple to figure..

although I did come across something i had forgotten concerning untouchables and the Pariah gene...at one point and time they were going to be exterminated BECAUSE of there power. a large number of them was kept on Earth because they were being experimented on. this large number began to cast a shadow in the warp, blocking out the Astronomicon. this was the 1st disturbing revelation of their potency. branches of the Administratum that relied on psykers were horrified. soon several of the High Lords were making moves towards having them outlawed and the Inquisitioon was given the task of ruthlessly exterminating any more that were found. cerain high lords were pushing to make this decree official.

it was the OA that was secretly working with the magos biologis and genetors to see if it was possible that the Pariahs could kill psykers. before the decree could come down the AM announced it was ending the Pariah project and made a great show of closing down the laboratoriums and executing many of the lab specimens. satisfied that no further action was needed, the High Lords returned to other matters.

close study of the records reveal that the number of executions did not match the number of Pariahs contained with the labs. with the help of the OA, the AM moved the most promising Pariahs to a scretly constructed fortress on the edge of the galaxy, beyong the reach of the Astronomicon and the zealous branches of the adeptus terra. it was here that the culexus temple was created.

all pariahs are kept in the temple . if they leave it is always under a veil of security and with the highest levels of security. there are factions within the Imperium that would see every Pariah executed and the culexus temple destroyed.

i don't know about any of you reading this but that is RPG gold to me. any untouchables out there might have more reason to feel just a lil fearful..they too can be the hunted. these are the folks opposed to the untouchables..the Paternal Envoy of the Navigators, the Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica and the Master of the Astronomican, including others...also the Inquisition. might there be those within the Inquisition see untouchables as an abomination that should be destroyed?

anyway i digress terribly. from what i had read, i am given the impression that OA gets ALOT more action than we might give them credit for and the targets are not always the end all and be all of baddies. it seems they are deployed for relatively 'mundane' tasks also. killing a charismatic heretic here and rebel leader there, with a few senos troops over there.

the liegekiller said:

Where did you find this stuff?

I mean this is real golden stuff for my campaign... In my campaign the number of "free" Untouchables acrross Imperium is pretty much zero but instead the OA maintains an extensive breeding program where they breed the bearers of pariah gene with each other thus ensuring a steady stream of recruits for Culexus.

the liegekiller said:

You were not really mistaken, though. Like I explained above the "official line" on OA has changed during the times. In the earlier sources OA really was a small group and targets were only the baddest of the bad. In more modern lore they seem to be downgraded nearer to mundane assassins... However, as one of the really intriguing things about the whole OA (in my opinion) has always been their position near the very center of the power (being commanded only by High Lords themselves and no-one else) I'd like to find some workable way of retaining their special status as High Lords tool but also have them downgraded so that I could actually introduce them in my campaigns. The best I've come up so far is an idea that the rules of engagement would be far more lenient when OA is employed against xenos or other "non-human" targets.

Polaria said:

I've had to recheck my Rogue Trader 40K and my Codex Imperialis on the OA. (i've been playing 40K a LOONNGG time and managed to keep all the books i've ever bought. when i look at the copyright dates, i feel so dated. LOL)

I don't think the official line has changed too much, it has just been fleshed out more. the text within RT40K calls the assassin 'one of the most useful diplomatic agents' the one common thread i see is deployment is not based solely on the target as much as expedience. 'if a planet can be restored to the Imperium by clever diplomacy an expensive, troublesome war and destructive war will be avoided. Imperial agents are all fully versed in all the tricks of diplomacy, including clandestine ones such as bribery, popular agitation, economic sabotage, terrorism, torture, murder and assassination'

the offenses a rebel can find themselves looking at an assassins blade or bullet is listed as such a planetary gov't that may start to think he can do without the protection of the Imperium, standard anti-psyker routines are allowed to slip, and Imperial taxes are forgotten.

as examples given were an assassin called Camaru...one assignment was the destruction of a transport ship, taking down junior members of the Priesthood SUSPECTED (lol) of being under alien domination. she was part of a 3 man hit team. another was the removal of a treacherous Imperial Commander, the Lord of Okku, who was selling his subjects to the Ork slavers for personal wealth. his tongue was cut from his head and he was 'the last Okkurian to be sold to Ork slavers' i like that last one..hehehe

somewhere along the line ppl have gotten the impression that Temple assassins only deal with the most heinous of perpetrators but from everything i've gone through this does not strike me as the case. at least thast my perspective I don't mind being in that tiny minority.

i think we should consider whom requests the assassins presence in the 1st place. that may very well tell much about their deployment. for example a rebellious commander has decided to go AWOL. he says screw the Imperium. what have u done for me lately. the PDF commander figures, this guy needs a talking to. the Adeptus Arbite on station..say yeh i agree however. this rebellious commander has one very large private army and has the support of a number of powerful merchantile families. they both figure they can take him and attempt to bring him to heel...reinforcements are called in as the conflict spreads across the globe...Imperial Guard are called in. a few Space Marines. someone, some senior adept mentioned calling in the OA but the Arbites and PDF said..what can they do that we can't...we have to wait how long and this needs action now. big costly war.

on the opposite end. same situation. they listened to the glorifed pencil pusher and said..yeah...call the OA..they'll show him whats what.

i'm also of the mind that OA assassins maybe utilized more regularly than we assume for another reason. there is no better training than the real world. their skills need to be kept sharp and intact and firing at dummies and knifing criminals may get stale. the mission parameters can run the gamut. so we end up having an Imperial Commander selling humans to Orks, junior members of the Ecclesiarchy getting whacked, a self declared prophet finding his just deserts. the destruction of Clan Mackenzie by way of Eversor for financing pirate raids on their neighbours and paying for stolen goods taken from rival mining worlds.(the Eversor by the way killed all 317 family members, the youngest being 3 weeks old, the oldest 142. these don't strike me nor has been described as the baddest of the bad. just targets that someone thought to get rid of, make an example of.

this comes from the last edition of Codex Assassins:

' the majority of the time, an Assassin will work alone. occasionally, however, teams of Assassin are dispatched, or an Assassin may find herself fighting alongside other military forces. Not only that, but assassins do not just fight alongside Imperial forces. in the Imperiums history there have been MANY occasions when it was deemed better to aid one ENEMY force over another, for the long term benefit of humanity.

For example 2 ork warlords fighting over a world near Imperial space..in these circumsances it may be better for a few covert Imperial agents to support the weaker of the 2 factions, which will then have a 2 fold effect. Firstly, the war will last longer, thereby seeing the deaths of more Orks. Secondly, a weaker Warboss is more likely to spend time consolidating his grip on the world, fighting usurpers within his own ranks and so on. The Imperial agenst may even change sides, thereby ensuring that no side claims a great victory, and postponing the potential invasion almost indefinetly.

what this boils down to is, is the fact that it isn't totally unreasonable for an Assassin to fight alongside an Ork or Eldar army.'

what this means to role playing scenarios is once again..gaming platinum.

i am of the mindset there are a good many Temples and more sub-temples. with a good many assassins...even if you take 1% of the human population..thats alot..even if u take .2 %...thast still quite a bit. remember Space Marines recruitment is limited by way of Codex Astartes, the OA to my knowledge has no such limitation on manpower.

workable Temple assassins. your way is perfectly fine. another i suggested in my 1st post was that the High Lords became involved only when the human targets were of extremely high value. very high ranking members of Imperial bodies and very 'loyal' Imperial commanders that were deemed friendly to the Imperial creed. i.e when ppl were of such value that it would set off a very nasty chain of events within the Imperiums way of doing business. also when large groups of Assassins need be deployed. i'm of the mind that the only aliens that may be considered of note to the High Lords is the Eldar Farseer and a big maybe to a Tau Ethereal.

i would go with whatever assassin you wish to employ still being in training attached to your Inqs retinue, learning the tools of the trade, getting a deeper understanding of the environment of the Imperium (worldly ways) remember they spend their time cloistered..in order to be effective and move amongst human civilizations unseen they should have spent quite a bit of time on the outside, gaining knowledge of their working environs AND their enemies. who better than the Inq. obviously, she has very strong ties to her Temple...and when the Lord Assassin calls..she must answer. also..she is beholden to someone else...other than her Inq, another Inq..the Ordo Sicario. the downgrading is u levelling up to become a Temple assassin in Ascension.

whereas many see limitations..i see gaming diamonds. i apologize for the long post. i just wanted to inform ppl that there are many many uses for a Temple assassin not just the big deal end all be alls. i hope this has helped in some ways.

cheers

I see what you are saying Mr Killer.

Certainly it's the duty of every right thinking Imperial Citizen to kill the xeno scum and heretic's. Of course it's not always clear who is a heretic...

I don't think this nescesarily mean's that the Temple Assassins themselves they aren't working to a direct order either. The High Lords might have given an order for say, A Six Assassin Execution force to be deployed for campaign in sector X.

Or indeed, if an order is given for a specific target then the collateral damage is going to be acceptable. While most cases this is just the immidiate bodyguards of the target in others it might envolve assisting the advance of an army to flush out the target.

I'm thinking Death Lists.... the Administratum prepares death lists for the approval of the Senate- hundreds or thousands of names. The High Lords glance over it to see if its anyone they like and line-item veto.

Then they approve it and the hundreds of Assassins go to work.

SJE

Wasn't there a source somewhere that said a great deal of the writs authorizing assassinations forged by Inquisitors of the Ordo Sicarius? It said something like that although it might seem to be an abuse of power it's actually necessary given the scope of the Imperium and the long periods of time it takes to officially authorize them. I think it was somewhere in the Inquisitor rulebook or something.

As for the authorization of sanctioned murder by the Officio Assassinorum, wouldn't approving these death warrants more fall into the job description of a veritable army of clerks belonging to the Adeptus Terra rather than the High Lords themselves? After all, the Adeptus Terra are mainly composed of servants, workers and underlings serving the High Lords, and I find it hard to imagine that the High Lords would bother with adressing and approving or denying each and every death warrant that must come to earth in their thousands each day.

Wouldn't it be more likely that they have a large staff of clerks and officials who have to review and adress the multitudes of death warrants with a specific set of rules before they sign and approve of the death warrant or reject it?

I'm thinking following...

Status A Targets (Imperial Adeptus) are sanctioned on case-by-case basis, limiting the targets only to single, named individuals. For practical purposes the actual premission is prepared and briefed for Senate vote by Adeptus Terra.

Status B Targets (Imperial Citizens outside Adepta) are sanctioned on sectorial basis. In effect an Adeptus Terra prepares a list of individuals who will be targetted by Officio Assassinorum for Senate vote. Anyone on this list is already Excommunicate Traitoris or sentenced to death-on-sight by Adeptus Arbites but deemed too hard or elusive targets to warrant a dedicated manhunt by other agencies. List can easily be several dozen or even hundreds of targets long depending on the importance of the sector and availability of Officio Assassinorum operators at the area. If resources are low the OA will outsource some of the assassinations to Death Cults or private commercial operators.

Status C Targets (Xenos) are sanctioned on operational basis. Adeptus Terra prepares a deployment order of OA operators to be used in military operation for Senate vote. The order simply states the number of OA operators given under the Warmasters command and the number of days they will be available. The Warmaster is then free to use the operators as he sees fit as long as the targets will only include xenos and/or daemons and the deployment of the operators does not exceed the set time limit.

Something like this would retain the essence of the OA in that all commands are ultimately given by High Lords as a result of majority vote but it would also open up the possibility of OA conducting thousands of operations yearly without totally blocking up Senatorum with the bureaucracy.

polaria

you might be very interested to check out this pdf. there is a section on the ordo sicarius. its fan material but enjoy nonetheless. it was a helluva read for me and expanded into some of my ideas about the OA and the Ordos Sicarius

http://www.darkmagenta.co.uk/magazine.html

www.darkmagenta.co.uk/magazine.html

Polaria said:

This is the Imperium of Man we're talking about. It's already blocked up with endless bureaucracy, courtesy of the Administratum (whose leader is one of the more powerful of the High Lords of Terra, as many organisations within the Imperium, including those represented by other High Lords, fall within his remit).

Personally, I dislike the idea of any Officio operative being subject to the orders of a Warmaster (partially because the Munitorum only permit such a role reluctantly and dislike giving any individual that sort of power, because they fear the creation of another Horus), or indeed anyone less than the High Lords of Terra themselves. The reason for the majority vote requirement (which didn't exist until the aftermath of the Age of Apostasy) is to limit the amount of power an individual has over such terrible weapons. The requirement for the High Lords of Terra to debate and vote upon every deployment of every assassin is a deliberate measure to prevent their overuse and misuse; that it takes time and effort to work an assassination petition through the system is deliberate, much as the division between Navy and Guard, and the division of the Legionnes Astartes, are deliberate measures to restrict the accumulation of force, much as the restructure of the Ecclesiarchy was a deliberate measure to reduce the power of any individual Cardinal.

If all that comes together to mean that it takes two months to approve a single Temple Assassin deployment... then it takes two months to approve a single deployment. It'll take the assassin weeks or months to reach the target anyway (warp travel is only fast compared to not using warp travel; it still takes weeks or months over multi-sector distances). Of course, I personally work on the notion that there are somewhere between a half-dozen and two-dozen Temple Assassin deployments a decade - they're not a commonly-used tool, by any stretch of the imagination. In many situations, there are other people who can do the job just as well as an expensive Temple Assassin - there is occasional mention of a group known as the Officio Sabatorum, who seem less classified in their activities, and the Inquisition isn't lacking its own operatives capable of assassination (particularly when you consider the Ordo Sicarius).

The modern Imperium is, IMO, afraid of the power it can bring to bear, and the strictures it deliberately puts into place to control that power hinder the ability to wield that power. Above all else, that's one of the reasons the Inquisition is so necessary - you need men and women of iron will and strong character and ruthless intellect to ignore the choking bureaucracy that holds the rest of the Imperium.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

This is, indeed, realistic way and pretty close to the feeling you get from lore. It is also quite the way I'm going to use assassins in my campaigns.

However, the reason I opened up this discussion about OA is the upcoming Ascension and Vindicare career path. if any GM gets a Vindicator Assassin player character out of Ascension the above won't help him much. You can't really run a game where one character only participates once in 5 years of game time.

Well, i once tried to post a 'profile' for a OA assassin in another thread here, using the old 2nd Edition profile. Sick bastards, but they were/are feared for a (good) reason.

You know, when i read the description of the Callidus and of Lord Hax so far... how big are the chances that there is one close to him, in his court, secretly watching him?

Hax has been installing his own little organisations to consolidate the power in the sector in his own hands (Chalice Commissariat, ordo Immoralis, ...), and that is not something the High Lords of Terra will ignore. A Callidus is ideal for this situation. She/He can easily infiltrate one of his organisations, work her way up, judge the involved people and get a position within striking distance to the Sector Lord in only a few months/years. Should he go astray .... it will be corrected.