After having used G8s in a few RL games I can say that the question is only an issue for rules nerds!

In practice it's all about communication with your opponent and without having thought all of these semantics and whatnots through we ended up playing it as a pre-notch effect.

At the end of the day, the rule is that once you are notched you are locked in to the maneuver and the speed so the moving player has the final say on how fast they are going. It seemed counter-intuitive to say to them "ok, you notched that speed 3 maneuver, well tough bananas you are now going speed 2"

It always ended up being about talking it through with the opponent ("hey, see that star destroyer? hope you have some nav commands in that fat stack of dials or don't expect to move it again hahahahha") and we just settled on the interpretation above where you CAN increase your permanent speed to counter the G8 and the G8 has to be declared before you notch and it seemed to work fine and was fun. a few crucial moves were preceded by a "WAIT!" before a tool was notched followed by a "I think im going to G8. WAIT. No, I'm not. WAIT! no ok i'm not" lol. Its still quite powerful, I mean I used them plus tractors plus Konstantine to manhandle an enemy ISD to block an enemy demolisher and then slowed the demolisher after it bumped the ISD so it never got above an effective speed 2.

So, something important that I realized during my game with Rekkon earlier:

Reducing the speed of the maneuver with G-8s has to occur before the player has set his speed. The reason is that the ship cannot overlap it's tool, and unlike the Overlap rules there is no wording in the G-8 ability to allow a ship to do this. So if the player sets their speed and then the G-8s are being used immediately prior to the Determine Course step resolving and the ship moving, the player is potentially then forced to overlap their maneuver tool. Which is an illegal maneuver, and not permitted by the G-8 upgrade.

What we do know is the G8 has to be declared and used and take effect, before the Maneuver Tool is placed on the Table.

until said time, you're free to manipulate said tool.

So, something important that I realized during my game with Rekkon earlier:

Reducing the speed of the maneuver with G-8s has to occur before the player has set his speed. The reason is that the ship cannot overlap it's tool, and unlike the Overlap rules there is no wording in the G-8 ability to allow a ship to do this. So if the player sets their speed and then the G-8s are being used immediately prior to the Determine Course step resolving and the ship moving, the player is potentially then forced to overlap their maneuver tool. Which is an illegal maneuver, and not permitted by the G-8 upgrade.

It has to happen before the tool is locked into the ships base, and if that is so, it is impossible for what you are saying to happen.

I might play it this way for now with my opponents.

"Now that you're on the determine course part of the ship movement phase, I would like to reserve my ability to use my G-8 projectors. Let me know when you are final but before you notch the tool into your base. You'll still be able to change the tool after that as well as spend a maneuver token if you haven't already. Thanks!"

Once I lock in the maneuver tool, I believe it's now too late. (assuming I wasn't trying to be a ninja and did it like, immediately).

Assume I'm in a CR-90 currently at speed 2 - and lets say I WANT to move exactly 2 spaces. Also, lets say I DO have a nav command, (Which I might simply use for YAW alone if the Evil Interdictor doesn't mess with me). I say "ok looks like I'm gonna go HERE" as I'm eyeballing the board and guesstimating where that would put me. My opponent does not say that they are going to use the G8 - so I lock in the template and start to reposition the ship - THEN my opponent goes "Oh NOW I'm slowing you down"...

In the above example I don't think they can do that. Basically you have to at least have the opportunity to use your nav to counter their G8.

Once I lock in the maneuver tool, I believe it's now too late. (assuming I wasn't trying to be a ninja and did it like, immediately).

Assume I'm in a CR-90 currently at speed 2 - and lets say I WANT to move exactly 2 spaces. Also, lets say I DO have a nav command, (Which I might simply use for YAW alone if the Evil Interdictor doesn't mess with me). I say "ok looks like I'm gonna go HERE" as I'm eyeballing the board and guesstimating where that would put me. My opponent does not say that they are going to use the G8 - so I lock in the template and start to reposition the ship - THEN my opponent goes "Oh NOW I'm slowing you down"...

In the above example I don't think they can do that. Basically you have to at least have the opportunity to use your nav to counter their G8.

Exactly.

If the Tool is on the Table, and about to locked in, its too late.

By the very Rules.

Because at that point, you are no longer in the "Determine Course" step. You are in the "Move Ship" step.

But on the Flipside, if you want to Go Speed 4, and your opponent goes "I'm gonna slow the Maneuver to 3".... Tough. You can't speed back up, because you can't apply a Nav to increase speed beyond Speed 4... because your speed is yor speed, and your maneuver is your maneuver.

Just toss another wrench on the table, does "before" "resolves" even need to mean during the Determine Course step. Couldn't it be used well Before that step, maybe not even during your targets turn?

Imagine during the Interdictor's turn it will be moving out of range of a cr90 that it would like to slow down. Could the Interdictor use the G8 on the cr90 before the Interdictor moves; effecting that cr90 ship later in that round? (Assuming that the cr80 has not moved this round)

That's. . .just a no. If the G-8 projector was intended to be used during the Interdictor's activation, it would be worded as such. Take Q7 tractor beams for example, "When you activate, you may exhaust this card. . ." The G-8s are used during an enemy ship activation, not the Interdictor's activation. If you want to do what you describe, slap Q7s on your Interdictor as well.

Re: the general discussion, I don't think exactly when G-8s are used will have a huge impact (i.e. right as the Determine Course Step begins, or the moment before the maneuver tool is notched). I think most times you're going to know whether or not you want to slow a ship down before your opponent even starts playing with the maneuver tool. And if you don't, well, you have until I insert the tool into the base to declare it. But if my opponent can't decide whether or not to use an upgrade card in the time it takes me to pick up the maneuver tool, adjust it, place it near my ship's base to see about where I'd end up, and finalize my decision, then I guess they're not going to trigger it against that ship.

As far as the issue of Nav dials and tokens, again, this won't have an impact on sequence. In the case of a Nav dial, you've already declared you're not taking the token. In that case, I can measure all of the possible maneuvers I could make at my current speed before deciding to spend the dial for extra yaw or to adjust speed before I notch the tool. In the same vein, I can plan for a Speed 2 maneuver, be just about ready to lock in the maneuver, get hit with G-8s, then declare I'm using the dial to increase my Speed to 3 (which is temporarily reduced to 2) and complete the maneuver I was planning on anyway.

G-8s aren't so much a "Gotcha!" kind of thing. It's not like you wait until your opponent is about to lock in their maneuver, you declare G-8s, and now your opponent is stuck with their planned maneuver except they're going to be one notch back on the maneuver tool. Using G-8s means the Determine Course Step hasn't Resolved, so your opponent can still declare the use of a Nav dial or token, or even perform a completely different maneuver.

And it's agains the rules of fair play (and maybe the actual rules, at least at tournaments) to rush through the DTC to prevent the use of G-8s. This would be along the same lines of spending Defense Tokens and then immediately allocating damage to prevent your opponent from triggering a critical effect.

Is there consensus on g8's interaction with engine techs?

Is there consensus on g8's interaction with engine techs?

Not so much consensus, but advice was given to Shmitty by Alex Davey that the intention is that Saving your G8 until the Engine Tech Maneuver is completely plausable, AND will result in the Speed of the Engine Tech Maneuver being 0, and thus, not moving.

But if you use G8s on the initial maneuver... You use it on the initial maneuver. No stopping engine techs then, as its an Exhaust.... One or the Other.

I think maybe the best way to avoid issues is to tractor slice your target before g8... then at least they won't be able to nav and you can more easily judge whether to g8 or not...

They did a very poor job with the wording and timing of the G8. I believe all issues, confusion, would have been avoided had it said something along the lines of the following. This a quick thought, not a in-depth re-writing. The thrust being the G8 player has to change the enemy's speed at the start of the Execute Maneuver step. The onus is then on the G8 player to make the first speed change, giving the ship controller the option of changing his speed with the full knowledge of the G8 change, if any.

"At the start of the Determine Course step of an enemy ship at distance 1-5, you may exhaust this card to temporarily reduce its speed by 1 to a minimum of speed 0 until the end of the Execute Maneuver step."

The G8 can be interpreted two ways (as i see it). You can use it during the determine curse step or have to use it before you even enter the step.

The wording is really poor (in my eye, as someone whos native language is not english).

The determine course is not resolved, as other effects are resolved. It is a step and not a single effect. A better wording for the G8 would have been " during the determine curse step " or "before you enter the determine course step".

But before you resolve the determine course step could also mean before you end the determine course step. And this is the same as during.

There are also no (by me known effects) that can interrupt an resolving effect. If you resolve it, you trigger it and do what is written on it (at least this is the way with all other resolving effects in the rules ref). But you can use effects during the determine course step (spending navigate tokens).

But there is a problem when you can use it during the determine curse step. The timing rule.

If both player have an effect during the determine curse step. For example the owner of the ship (Player A) with a navigate token and the opponent (Player B) with a G8. So the ini decice who has to use the effect first.

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if both player have effects with the same timing, the first player resolves all of his effects with that timing first

Both players have an effect that can be used during the determine course step. If player A is player 1, he has to decide if he want to use the navigate token or not. And after this the player B can decide if he want to use the G8. A really big drawback for player A.

If player B is player 1, he has to decide first if he want to use the G8 and after this player A can decide if he want to use the token. In this case the G8 has nearly (player A can not get back to max speed) no effect anymore. And it is the same as if the G8 would have to be used before the determine course step.

But because it is really stupid (and bad) if the ini decide about this important effects, i would think that the G8 has to be used before the determine course step. But as written at the begin, the wording should have been different.

When you factor in things like:

* There will be situations (you are already at max speed) where you cannot increase your ship speed in response to your maneuver being slowed.

* You can resolve a nav Token and gain no benefit from it (I want to slow down from 3 to 2, but you want me to do 1? Too bad, I just won't slow down myself...)

It balances out for the most part... The player with the G-8 has paid points for a certain upgrade, that is an Exhaust Upgrade... They should get some value for it. That value is making you potentially waste a Nav Token, or half a Nav Dial...

Of course, this is completely Anecdotal, but this is how it happened Last Night:


"Okay, Going to move the ISD now..."

"You going to spend that Nav Token?"

"Don't think I need to..."

"Well, I'm hitting you with G-8s."

"Well, dang, better use the token, then... "

"That's cool. Cancels out the maneuver penalty right now, but it means you're stuck at Speed 3 for the next couple of turns if you don't have another Nav banked up in there, and I'm going to try to nav you off the board..."

... **** Polite Canadians.

So here's what we have:

G-8s, at best, trigger in the 1st player-2nd player order relative to anything else that is activated "during the determine course step."

This means that their effect timing changes radically depending on which position they have in the initiative order, and the affect of those choices changes based on the initiative order.

This means that players have to mentally redefine when the card activates and what effect it will have on enemy actions in every single game. Not in terms of "how effective will this be" but in terms of what it actually does .

That's bad rule design. And it's so easy to correct too. I just can't understand why they went with this wording.

Just read through the whole thread and noticed no one had mentioned this in any of their examples. When you flip your dial you have to determine right then whether or not you will be using the dial or taking the token, the difference being speed and yaw for the dial and just speed or yaw for the token. The G-8 makes for an interesting effect in this circumstance, especially playing into a fleet that wants to maneuver and drift like crazy.

You are deciding then wether you are taking the Dial or Token, yes... But you do not actually decide if you are spending said Nav Dial or Token until the Determine Course step.

I thought you had to decide to use the dial or bank it as a token at the beginning of the activation?

That is before you make your attacks.

Now if you're going max speed and decide not to bank the token and he dosen't G8 you then you could only use the dial to add yaw.

Question is - Are you willing to choose only Nav commands in case he G8's you? If you do how many turns are you willing to play where you're not doing anything else?

I thought you had to decide to use the dial or bank it as a token at the beginning of the activation?

That is before you make your attacks.

That is correct. But keeping the dial and spending the dial are not the same event. You must choose immediately after flipping the dial whether or not to spend it to take a token. If you did not spend the dial to gain a token, you may then later spend the dial at a time appropriate to the command on the dial to execute that command. If you do not do so, the dial is discarded at the end of your turn.

So there are kind of two decision points in pay here: immediately after you flip the dial, you choose to keep it or gain a token; then during Determine Course you choose whether or not to spend it.

Relevant references:

When a ship is activated, its owner reveals that ship’s

top command dial and places it next to the ship in the

play area. It can be spent immediately to assign the

corresponding command token to that ship, or it can be

spent at the appropriate time to resolve that command.

After a ship finishes its activation, if it did not spend its

command dial, that dial is discarded.

A ship can resolve the effect of a command by spending

a command dial or command token with the matching

icon at the appropriate time. The effect of the command is

based on which component was spent:

• M Navigate: Resolve during the “Determine Course”

step of movement.

◊ Dial: Increase or decrease the ship’s speed by one,

and/or increase the yaw value of one joint by one for

this maneuver.

This thread has been RESURRECTED...

Faq states:

"When this effect is resolved on an enemy ship and that ship changes its speed dial during the Determine Course step, the ship’s speed is temporarily reduced by 1 from the current speed on its dial.

This effect can be resolved on an enemy ship that is executing a maneuver from an effect such as Engine Techs. This effect is resolved before the Determine Course step of that maneuver and reduces the ship’s temporary speed by 1 to a minimum of 0."

So if my understanding is correct (big if) when you declare G8s on a ship that is going 3...the player with that ship can increase to speed 4 with his dial...but is G8ed back to 3 temporarily. Is that correct?

(Also now we know for sure that it works on ET.)

This thread has been RESURRECTED...

Faq states:

"When this effect is resolved on an enemy ship and that ship changes its speed dial during the Determine Course step, the ship’s speed is temporarily reduced by 1 from the current speed on its dial.

This effect can be resolved on an enemy ship that is executing a maneuver from an effect such as Engine Techs. This effect is resolved before the Determine Course step of that maneuver and reduces the ship’s temporary speed by 1 to a minimum of 0."

So if my understanding is correct (big if) when you declare G8s on a ship that is going 3...the player with that ship can increase to speed 4 with his dial...but is G8ed back to 3 temporarily. Is that correct?

(Also now we know for sure that it works on ET.)

As long as his ship is capable of travelling at speed 4.

So, 5 pages later, we still have no summary agreement yet of which happens first exactly?