As others have said, you cannot increase your speed beyond your speed chart, meaning if at the end of the temporary reduction you would be at speed 4 on a speed 3 ship, it is not allowed.

As for when it triggers, wording says before the DTC step is resolved, it does not say before the DTC step begins. So why would it be used before you start the DTC step?

I don't have the RRG open for copy-paste, but timing issues of "before" and "after" are immediately before and after the steps specified. So before the determine course step means it is performed immediately before the Determine Course step, but after the previous step before it and after any effects that would occur "after" that step.

So it would look like

Before Step 1 > Step 1 > After Step 1 > Before Step 2 > Step 2 > After Step 2

I believe that the argument being made is that the exact wording is before resolving the step, not before the step, itself...

Which is what I'm hung up on, and unable to work out while I'm so sleep deprived

It's before the step resolves , not before the step or before the step starts. So any time between your opponent picking up the maneuver tool until they slot it into the base (and you can even interrupt if they're too quick about it). So you can wait until your opponent declares they are using their Nav command to speed up/slow down. Likewise, your opponent can wait until you declare the G-8 trigger before declaring whether they're going to use a nav command. The important thing to remember is that you can only accelerate to counter the G-8s if you're not going max speed.

Another interesting note is that, once your opponent declares they are using G-8, you have a chance to adjust the maneuver tool. The Determine Course step hasn't completed, meaning you're not locked into whatever maneuver you were going to perform, so you can always change your mind.

It's before the step resolves , not before the step or before the step starts. So any time between your opponent picking up the maneuver tool until they slot it into the base (and you can even interrupt if they're too quick about it). So you can wait until your opponent declares they are using their Nav command to speed up/slow down. Likewise, your opponent can wait until you declare the G-8 trigger before declaring whether they're going to use a nav command. The important thing to remember is that you can only accelerate to counter the G-8s if you're not going max speed.

Another interesting note is that, once your opponent declares they are using G-8, you have a chance to adjust the maneuver tool. The Determine Course step hasn't completed, meaning you're not locked into whatever maneuver you were going to perform, so you can always change your mind.

Isn't that how it would work if it were a "while" effect?

Seems to me it's a before effect to avoid this exact game of chicken. Active player says "I'm gonna move, G8 or not?", opponent declares G8 or not and player can then begin resolving accordingly, deciding to change speed or not (to the limit of the speed chart).

From a gameplay perspective, the way you describe seems like an unnecessary hassle. It's already time consuming enough to evaluate the situation.

It is a while effect.

It says before the DTC step is resolved. Resolved means completed, so any time up until the DTC is completed means it is a legal target for the G8.

New cards > 2 year old rule book.

It is a while effect.

It says before the DTC step is resolved. Resolved means completed, so any time up until the DTC is completed means it is a legal target for the G8.

New cards > 2 year old rule book.

The issue here is the definition of "Resolve." "Resolve" seems to have a timing component but it's unclear exactly what that component is from the RRG. The only thing we know is that if multiple actions or effects would resolve at the same time, they can be resolved in any order just like if there was a timing conflict.

A good way to think about it is: Is resolving a command the act of spending the dial for the command at the specified time, or completely performing the action associated with the command and moving to the next step? If you Resolve a Repair command, is that command Resolved when you gain the engineering points or when you spend them and move on to the next step?

If Resolve means to actually finalize the action and move to the next step, then G-8 Grav Projectors occurs after speed and yaw are set. This means that your yaw and speed cannot be changed after, even if it would normally result in an illegal maneuver just like a ram. If Resolve is the actual act of setting the speed and yaw and preparing to go to the Move step, then Speed and Yaw can be set after using G-8s if possible.

It is a while effect.

It says before the DTC step is resolved. Resolved means completed, so any time up until the DTC is completed means it is a legal target for the G8.

New cards > 2 year old rule book.

Funny you would claim that, because the card has the word "before" printed on it, and I can't find "while" anywhere. And look, both words are defined as being different things in the RRG!

RR p5, effect and timing :

• A “while” effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event.

• A “before” effect occurs immediately before the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

Regardless of the issue of what "resolves" means, which is likely what your claim is built upon, the 2 years old rulebook is pretty clear on how this should be played.

Since it's a before effect, the outcome is that the moving player can decide to resolve the determine course step entirely differently, because G8 applies before he resolves it regardless of when the G8 is used. The envisioned game of chicken is useless. You might as well say G8 before he even picks up the tool, and gain everybody a few minutes to go grab a coke or something.

Now if it were really a while effect, you could technically yell G8KACHU, I CHOOSE YOU while the ship is being physically moved to temporarily reduce its speed, without any adjustment to be made to the tool or speed or the way the player chose to resolve the maneuver.

But it's a "before", in a game with no previous "while" interrupts (that I can think of, anyway).

PHYLONASOUR! I CHOOSE YOU!!!

(From now on I will have to assign pokemon names to all of my upgrade cards which has just made list building 10x more fun )

It is a while effect.

It says before the DTC step is resolved. Resolved means completed, so any time up until the DTC is completed means it is a legal target for the G8.

New cards > 2 year old rule book.

Funny you would claim that, because the card has the word "before" printed on it, and I can't find "while" anywhere. And look, both words are defined as being different things in the RRG!

RR p5, effect and timing :

• A “while” effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event.

• A “before” effect occurs immediately before the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

Regardless of the issue of what "resolves" means, which is likely what your claim is built upon, the 2 years old rulebook is pretty clear on how this should be played.

Since it's a before effect, the outcome is that the moving player can decide to resolve the determine course step entirely differently, because G8 applies before he resolves it regardless of when the G8 is used. The envisioned game of chicken is useless. You might as well say G8 before he even picks up the tool, and gain everybody a few minutes to go grab a coke or something.

Now if it were really a while effect, you could technically yell G8KACHU, I CHOOSE YOU while the ship is being physically moved to temporarily reduce its speed, without any adjustment to be made to the tool or speed or the way the player chose to resolve the maneuver.

But it's a "before", in a game with no previous "while" interrupts (that I can think of, anyway).

Except the word before is part of a cohesive sentence.

You know things like :

"Before deploying fleets." - This is a specific time, where before defines it.

"At the start of the ship phase you may activate, as if you were activated by a Squadron command." - Allows Han Solo to act first in a round, BEFORE any ships activate.

"Before a friendly ships attack step." (Ackbar) You pick before you shoot whether you want to gain 2 dice and only fire from your side arcs.

The one thing they all have in common, something has to happen before something else begins.

Except when we look at G8 :

"Before an enemy ship at distance 1-5 resolves the determine course step."

A ship has not resolved it's DTC step until the Maneuver tool is placed into its base, and moved. which gives a clear and definitive window for when G8 has to be used.

So, huh, like, you're saying before is before, and not while?

So, huh, like, you're saying before is before, and not while?

Before the ship finishes DTC step, sure, which means it is while, because that phase has to be resolved. Not before you start the DTC step, which is what was being discussed earlier.

So before is while?

Before you resolve means before you resolve. There's no past tense on the card, even though you keep adding that nuance. It doesn't mean while you resolve, before you have resolved, before it is resolved, or anything else.

To resolve something means to go through the entire process, from beginning to finish, does it not?

"A “before” effect occurs immediately before the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event."

"Resolve - decide firmly on a course of action."

The moment they lock in that manouver tool, they have resolved their movement, they have not finished it, but they have resolved it. And thus you have missed your opportunity, because it is no longer before the act of resolving.

Ah, a good old semantics argument.

This definition of the word "resolve" is not the one used in several instances in the RRG.

Compare these:

Attack, RRG p. 2 : "To perform an attack with a squadron or ship, resolve the following steps:"

Attack Resolution, Quick ref, RRG p. 16 : "To perform an attack with a squadron or ship, proceed through the following steps:"

"To resolve" in the context of the RRG can certainly mean "to proceed through the step(s)." Ergo, "to resolve the determine course step" means to go through the entire step, from start to finish.

So before is while?

Before you resolve means before you resolve. There's no past tense on the card, even though you keep adding that nuance. It doesn't mean while you resolve, before you have resolved, before it is resolved, or anything else.

To resolve something means to go through the entire process, from beginning to finish, does it not?

It means decide on a course of action.

As Ginkapo stated, the DTC step is not resolved until the tool is locked into the ships base, once it is locked into place, DTC has been resolved, the course has been set, all that is left is to pick it up and move it.

So before is while?

Before you resolve means before you resolve. There's no past tense on the card, even though you keep adding that nuance. It doesn't mean while you resolve, before you have resolved, before it is resolved, or anything else.

To resolve something means to go through the entire process, from beginning to finish, does it not?

It means decide on a course of action.

As Ginkapo stated, the DTC step is not resolved until the tool is locked into the ships base, once it is locked into place, DTC has been resolved, the course has been set, all that is left is to pick it up and move it.

What are we arguing about?

We all agree that the key moment is locking in the manouver tool.....

Actually, while I agree from a gameplay perspective, technically I don't .

Window of opportunity is before the tool is even picked up, as stated in my previous post.

Gowtah, your argument doesn't make any sense. The wording is before a ship resolves the Determine Course step, not before the Determine Course step. Before a ship completes/ends/finishes the determine course step, not before it even starts it. Chances are you've already decided whether or not you're going to trigger G-8s before your opponent starts adjusting the maneuver tool, but by the rules you have until they insert the maneuver tool into the ship's base to declare it. And that includes waiting to see if they're going to declare the use of a Navigate command. By what definition of the word "resolve" are you getting this sense that the intent is before the step even begins?

EDIT - So I'm going to preface this with an apology, Gowtah. I was thinking about this as I was brushing my teeth (or while I was resolving the Brush Teeth step. . .man I need a life). And I can definitely see what you're arguing. I'm focusing on the use of the word "resolves" meaning ends, but you're arguing that "resolves" means the entire act of the DTC. And FFG could have used "while an enemy ship is resolving. . ." Ultimately it won't change much other than your opponent gets to see if you're going to use G-8 before deciding whether or not to use their Nav command, but I could see where the G-8 player has to declare first. And it would save a little time. If your opponent is adjusting the maneuver tool on a Speed 3 Raider, then you trigger G-8, you'll likely have to readjust the maneuver tool because you have drastically different options.

It's before the step resolves , not before the step or before the step starts. So any time between your opponent picking up the maneuver tool until they slot it into the base (and you can even interrupt if they're too quick about it). So you can wait until your opponent declares they are using their Nav command to speed up/slow down. Likewise, your opponent can wait until you declare the G-8 trigger before declaring whether they're going to use a nav command. The important thing to remember is that you can only accelerate to counter the G-8s if you're not going max speed.

Another interesting note is that, once your opponent declares they are using G-8, you have a chance to adjust the maneuver tool. The Determine Course step hasn't completed, meaning you're not locked into whatever maneuver you were going to perform, so you can always change your mind.

Isn't that how it would work if it were a "while" effect?

Seems to me it's a before effect to avoid this exact game of chicken. Active player says "I'm gonna move, G8 or not?", opponent declares G8 or not and player can then begin resolving accordingly, deciding to change speed or not (to the limit of the speed chart).

From a gameplay perspective, the way you describe seems like an unnecessary hassle. It's already time consuming enough to evaluate the situation.

And I had read this a while ago, but forgot to respond to it.

What I'm describing takes all of two seconds. Player A starts adjusting the maneuver tool with an unspent Nav command. Player B waits to see if Player A is going to use said command. Player A goes to slot the maneuver tool. Now Player B has to declare the use of the G-8s or not. Essentially you have a normal Determine Course Step with the added decision on Player B's part. And in this case, Player B declares the use of G-8, Player A declares the use of the Nav Command, and the only thing that changes is the speed on the speed dial. It doesn't take any longer, other than two spoken sentences and one slight rotation of the speed dial.

i started this thread, after all i have read it seems like the consensus is , based on Reegsk recent example:

What I'm describing takes all of two seconds. Player A starts adjusting the maneuver tool with an unspent Nav command. Player B waits to see if Player A is going to use said command. Player A goes to slot the maneuver tool. Now Player B has to declare the use of the G-8s or not. Essentially you have a normal Determine Course Step with the added decision on Player B's part. And in this case, Player B declares the use of G-8, Player A declares the use of the Nav Command, and the only thing that changes is the speed on the speed dial. It doesn't take any longer, other than two spoken sentences and one slight rotation of the speed dial.

So in his example if i am going speed 3 and that is my max speed, then G-8 is used on me as described in example above, my speed would temp be reduced to 2 for this maneuver but stay set to 3. BUT if i use my Maneuver token to change my speed to 2, then G-8 would AUTOMATICALLY be reducing it to speed 1 for this turn ONLY?? correct?

is everyone say that G-8 just modifies the speed -1 based on what i "end" up setting the speed at before i lock my tool ?

is everyone say that G-8 just modifies the speed -1 based on what i "end" up setting the speed at before i lock my tool ?

In effect, yes. Your speed is temporarily reduced, so whatever you dial shows minus one is the speed at which you will maneuver. So you can definitely use Nav commands to affect your speed up or down. But if your dial shows max speed, you cannot speed up.

Argh.... Do you guys mind if I pose some examples?

1) Corvette is at speed 3 with no NAV command or token. Corvette player goes to "Determine course" step, Imperials declare G8, so corvette player has to set their maneuver tool at speed 2. Is this correct?

2) Corvette is at speed 3 with NAV command. Corvette player goes to "Determine course" step, Imperials declare G8 (thus making "temporary" speed 2). Corvette then has the option to change their dial with NAV command to 2, 3 or 4, and set their maneuver tool at speed 1,2 or 3.... Is this correct?

3) OR Corvette is at speed 3 with NAV command. Corvette player goes to "Determine course" step, decides whether they are changing speed, set their speed (either 2, 3 or 4), THEN imperials declare G8, forcing the corvette to set the maneuver tool at one less than the set speed... Is this correct?

Is there a semblance of agreement here now? Or do we wait another couple of months?

To me it's pretty clear cut:

G-8 Experimental Projector:

Before an enemy ship at distance 1-5 resolves the Determine Course step, you may exhaust this card to temporarily reduce its speed by 1 to a minimum of speed 0 until the end of the maneuver.

Note to self: it would be MUCH cooler if G-8s COULD interrupt the resolution of the step..."forced" overlapping of a maneuver tool...that would be awesome!

This could actually come up: