The MC80 Liberty has a ton of options available to it when it comes to dishing out high levels of turbolaser-fueled destruction. But which options are best? The Mon Karren title is certainly very attractive, but it's expensive, and is it really better than other options? Having two turbolaser slots also gives the ship many powerful possibilites, such as Quad Turbolaser Cannons paired with H9 Turbolasers, although that is very expensive. We also have the new Spinal Armament, and classics such as XI7 Turbolasers. How does all this fun stuff fit together, and how do they compare?

With that in mind, I have directly compared three different similarly-costed loadouts: Quad Turbolaser Cannons, H9 Turbolasers, and SW-7 Ion Batteries; Mon Karren, Spinal Armament, and SW-7 Ion Batteries; and Spinal Armament, XI7 Turbolasers, and SW-7 Ion Batteries.

Note: I included SW7 in each of the builds because 1: it makes average damage and accuracies easier to work with, and 2: I think it combos very well with each of these builds.

Note 2: All attacks of course assume medium range. The average damage results are rounded as appropriate. In my results, the defense token priority (for attacker and defender) was Brace-Evade-Redirect, unless a different order was better (e.g. 1 accuracy against a ship with two Braces). For Evade, I assumed 1 canceled damage. For the purpose of Redirect, all attacks targeted the front hull zone. Damage results after Redirect are indicated as X+Y, with X being the target hull zone. Also, I ranked more damage to the target hull zone higher, even if the total damage was the same (e.g. 5+1 is better than 2+4).

Now, the results:

Results: QTC+H9 isn't that great (though it is almost guaranteed to one-shot a flotilla, for what that's worth). SA+XI7 is better against most ships if it rolls even a single accuracy, and is three points cheaper. MK+SA performs well under most circumstances, but again, SA+XI7 with even a single accuracy is almost always equal or better, and again costs fewer points.

Conclusion: SA+XI7 seems to be the way to go, but MK+SA is better at red range* where accuracies will be less common.

*Maybe I should make a chart for that, too...

Hey look, I made a chart for long range as well! Note: Average Hits assumes an MC80 Battle Cruiser.

As expected, MK+SA should pretty well dominate at this range, at least in comparison to the other builds.

I've noticed a lot of people have been going for straight spinal armaments on a lot of ship from the MC80 to the AFII. Is that really worth it or is spinal armament relegated to gamblers or playing second fiddle on a double turbolaser upgraded MC80?

I've noticed a lot of people have been going for straight spinal armaments on a lot of ship from the MC80 to the AFII. Is that really worth it or is spinal armament relegated to gamblers or playing second fiddle on a double turbolaser upgraded MC80?

For most ships, I feel that SA isn't as good as something like XI7 or H9. It's like EA—how often did we see that before? Sure, SA is a point cheaper, but I still don't think we will see it much in the long run. With that said, SA is the only turbolaser that really complements MK, and I think it works well in combination with XI7, also.

I've noticed a lot of people have been going for straight spinal armaments on a lot of ship from the MC80 to the AFII. Is that really worth it or is spinal armament relegated to gamblers or playing second fiddle on a double turbolaser upgraded MC80?

I can't see myself taking it even on the Salvation , which arguably gets the most out of an extra red die out the front. Same with a MKII A I am trying to double arc with. I would just rather have the ability to turn a blank to a double with TRC.

Tried it yesterday as a proxy with Mon Karren. WOW. Im sold. Yes, I wiffed one roll. Transport got cocky thought he could stay around, the second shot with CF 6 red dice obliterated it instantly.

When your red dice go hot, wow. That's a lot of pow

Tried it yesterday as a proxy with Mon Karren. WOW. Im sold. Yes, I wiffed one roll. Transport got cocky thought he could stay around, the second shot with CF 6 red dice obliterated it instantly.

When your red dice go hot, wow. That's a lot of pow

Probably why I love leading shots so much. I figure if I find that many blanks after two attempts, it really just wasn't meant to be.

No chart on Mon Karren and Xi7's?

I've noticed a lot of people have been going for straight spinal armaments on a lot of ship from the MC80 to the AFII. Is that really worth it or is spinal armament relegated to gamblers or playing second fiddle on a double turbolaser upgraded MC80?

I can't see myself taking it even on the Salvation , which arguably gets the most out of an extra red die out the front. Same with a MKII A I am trying to double arc with. I would just rather have the ability to turn a blank to a double with TRC.

Both of those ships though, if you use TRC's on both attacks will burn through their evade and turn your upgrade into so much space junk. I'm still going to be using TRC's on MC30 Scouts and CR90's, but I think Salv gets Spinals. The AFMK is situational, imo, depending on fleet composition and Admiral.

I've noticed a lot of people have been going for straight spinal armaments on a lot of ship from the MC80 to the AFII. Is that really worth it or is spinal armament relegated to gamblers or playing second fiddle on a double turbolaser upgraded MC80?

For most ships, I feel that SA isn't as good as something like XI7 or H9. It's like EA—how often did we see that before? Sure, SA is a point cheaper, but I still don't think we will see it much in the long run. With that said, SA is the only turbolaser that really complements MK, and I think it works well in combination with XI7, also.

This is a fair comparison, and it was something that went across my mind when the cards ability was first rightly speculated on. I was trying to figure out why I was so excited for this card even though I never used EA.

EA had a few spots. Not very many though, because most ships that would consider EA are as you said, better served to take something else. It also is something of overkill in an Ackbar fleet unless you are using it to enhance a Torpedo Frigate, as the rest of the rebel broadside ships have enough natural dice in conjunction with Ackbar that you should definitely be taking Xi7's, or in the case of the scout/cr90 TRC's. The imperials simply had no ship where this really made sense. I know some folks experimented on using it with different star destroyers, but honestly they just weren't worth their points on either platform.

The difference to me is that Spinal has at least 2 ships it should be considered on almost every time you play them, in the Liberty and a Salvation equipped Neb. The nice thing about the liberty is that it can take both, although you may not want to put that many points into it. I like it a lot on Salv, although it is 2 more points than TRC's, It could also go on a VSD, which was the one platform I used to consider Slaved Turrets on. I rarely bothered to find the points to put xi7's on VSD-1's because you only get so many opportunities to really lay in with the full battery, and I was using it as a carrier most of the time anyway. Maybe in a konstantine/interdictor led quicksand fleet we will want to see xi7's on VSD's, but I think Spinals could be a good upgrade for them allowing them a bit of extra punch at red distance.

I've noticed a lot of people have been going for straight spinal armaments on a lot of ship from the MC80 to the AFII. Is that really worth it or is spinal armament relegated to gamblers or playing second fiddle on a double turbolaser upgraded MC80?

I can't see myself taking it even on the Salvation , which arguably gets the most out of an extra red die out the front. Same with a MKII A I am trying to double arc with. I would just rather have the ability to turn a blank to a double with TRC.

I can. 9 points is cheap to "Increase" not 1 but 2 zones for red dice. This is not an Add effect either so for Fire Lanes you will have more dice than normal. This is important.

You can also put Advanced Gunnery on Salvation and it just reaps rewards!

More loadouts! Also I fixed some errors I noticed on the original ones (some cells were highlighted that should not have been, others should have been highlighted and were not).

So MK+XI7 is good at long range, but not as good as MK+SA. It may be cheaper, but since MK+SA is much better at medium range, I think those three points are worth it. (seriously, it's the only loadout so far with no Best Damage scenarios at medium range)

SA+H9 is quite interesting, and probably worth considering, particularly for long range engagements.

Please never take H9+XI7. It is not very good, particularly at long range.

Go with MK+Xi7+SA and leave SW7 out.

Go with MK+Xi7+SA and leave SW7 out.

That makes it cheaper sure, but you can do the same with MK+SA. Also all that does is make 5 hits 1 accuracy your likely baseline.

I've noticed a lot of people have been going for straight spinal armaments on a lot of ship from the MC80 to the AFII. Is that really worth it or is spinal armament relegated to gamblers or playing second fiddle on a double turbolaser upgraded MC80?

I can't see myself taking it even on the Salvation , which arguably gets the most out of an extra red die out the front. Same with a MKII A I am trying to double arc with. I would just rather have the ability to turn a blank to a double with TRC.

I can. 9 points is cheap to "Increase" not 1 but 2 zones for red dice. This is not an Add effect either so for Fire Lanes you will have more dice than normal. This is important.

You can also put Advanced Gunnery on Salvation and it just reaps rewards!

Enhanced armament does the same thing but for 1 point more. I don't necessarily disagree with you but SA doesn't break new ground. People weren't jumping all over enhanced armament straight unmodified red dice aren't spectacular, not bad, but not not spectacular.

Personally I'm all for Spinal Armament on the Liberty paired with XI7. Salvation I'm not so sure since you'll get so much more more TRC for a crit on demand or slaved turrets just to save you points.

Go with MK+Xi7+SA and leave SW7 out.

That makes it cheaper sure, but you can do the same with MK+SA. Also all that does is make 5 hits 1 accuracy your likely baseline.

Also SA+XI7 is only 1 point more point more than MK+XI7, and I feel like it's more reliable.

Just Mon Karren...

Go with MK+Xi7+SA and leave SW7 out.

So I just noticed that you wanted to include SA. However, the takeaway from this should be that taking XI7 with MK helps against exactly 4 ships if you roll 1 accuracy, and ZERO ships if you roll no accuracies.

Just Mon Karren...

That is certainly a very good, efficient option. But I was trying to keep all the loudouts similarly costed.

This is all good to see, but Leading Shots will probably change all of these numbers. And I'm pretty sure that's an auto-include unless you're specifically building for a different ion canon.

This is all good to see, but Leading Shots will probably change all of these numbers. And I'm pretty sure that's an auto-include unless you're specifically building for a different ion canon.

Leading Shots is possibly a better option than SW7, but the math on that is certainly more complicated, so I went with SW7.

Also, LS would skew the numbers slightly more in favor of SA loudouts, but would otherwise affect them all more or less the same.

This is all good to see, but Leading Shots will probably change all of these numbers. And I'm pretty sure that's an auto-include unless you're specifically building for a different ion canon.

Leading Shots is possibly a better option than SW7, but the math on that is certainly more complicated, so I went with SW7.

Also, LS would skew the numbers slightly more in favor of SA loudouts, but would otherwise affect them all more or less the same.

I get it, I just think people need to take this with a grain of salt until somebody has done the Leading Shots math.

Increasing the average overall damage will increase the value of defense mitigation. XI7 scales better-than-linearly because of its flat 1-damage effect; shutting down brace becomes much more valuable than shutting down redirect once the unbraced damage overwhelms two shields at the same time (after 5-7 damage, mostly); the ability to reroll useless accuracies or fish for needed ones increases throughout all around.

Not saying your numbers aren't valid, just pointing out that there is a caveat and this isn't hard gospel truth. There are still lots and lots of variables.

Oh, for sure. I might see if I can tackle the LS math tomorrow.

Go with MK+Xi7+SA and leave SW7 out.

So I just noticed that you wanted to include SA. However, the takeaway from this should be that taking XI7 with MK helps against exactly 4 ships if you roll 1 accuracy, and ZERO ships if you roll no accuracies.

Your point on this? Those 4 ships are the ISD, VSD, GSD, MC80 HO, and the Assault Frigate. It also works on CR90's that have an exhausted Evade token or only 1 evade left. So really it is 5 ships and a caveat.

Here is why, on the GSD and Assault Frigate, if you hit their evade at long range with an Accuracy, it could be more damaging than hitting their brace. Lets say you only deal 3 damage, sure they can brace the 3 down to 2 or they can evade, if one of those is a double you lose more than they would be bracing. This also goes for the CR90 as well. With Xi7 AND Mon Karren you create a situation that limits the over all effectiveness of all tokens they have with just a single accuracy and some planning.

So unless my math is off (I'm not particularly good at statistics), the average damage of 5 red 3 blue is more or less the same with or without Leading Shots. Because while LS definitely improves the average damage of the reds (from .75 damage per die to right around 1 damage per die), you have to give up a die to do it. So the overall damage is a little bit higher (7.16 with 2 blue hits vs. 6.75 with 3 blue hits), but since we are dealing with discrete values, with rounding the damage becomes...the same: 7 damage with 0 accuracies, 6 damage with 1 accuracy, etc. Of course, LS is 1 point cheaper, and gives some nice insurance against poor dice, so it is definitely worth taking.