Hi there!

So, I've got a question about avoiding engagement. I'm playing a Guardian/Warleader with two pistols, which is great and fun and all, but I expect the game to have a bunch of lightsaber-y fights and I can't really use one.

As far as I can gather, with two maneuvers, a bad guy can keep me engaged and beat on me with its lightsaber as often as it wants. For example:

1. Fight starts @ Short. On my turn, I move to Medium and fire; because Medium->Long takes two maneuvers, I can't get farther away.

2. Enemy moves Medium->Short, then Short->Engaged; he beats on me.

3. I Disengage Engaged->Short, then move Short->Medium; I shoot him.

Repeat ad nauseum, until one of us is demised. Environmental effects and difficult terrain might mitigate (especially if I can force leap vertically and he can't; or ignore difficult terrain and he can't) but those things are just as likely to be possessed by the opponent as they are by me.

So far as I can tell, there's only one way that can *guarantee* getting away from being hit, and that's Preemptive Avoidance, which costs a Destiny Point. It's also only in Sage and Seer, which doesn't really fit the character.

One solution that occurred to me that would be most IC: can I use Force Leap w/Range increment as maneuver to: Disengage->Short, then Force Leap Short->Long (because the range of Force Leap maxes at Medium, does leaping from Short->Long count as a Medium-level move?)

The other option I could see would be a Jet Pack, which turns me into a vehicle and thus makes move maneuvers cover anything up to Extreme. But I don't really want to be a jet-pack blaster-guy.

Barring that, are there any other talents, abilities or trees that can help my lightsaber-survivability problem that (a) might fit with a pistol-wielding Jedi's concept and (b) aren't so horrendously expensive they just aren't worth it? That Breach 1 on a lightsaber that reduces my soak by 10 really is a killer, and I'd really rather not have to become a saber-wielding jedi in order to avoid that kinda dying.

A couple of points really.

Firstly you should most likely be complimented by party that accompanies you in that you will probably have one, if not more that take lightsabers and/or a lightsaber tree, logically speaking there will be fellows willing to stand in the way, and while inquistors and the like will occasionally take a swing at you, usually they will be more preoccupied by your comrades and will try and leave the guardian to the henchmen.

Secondary while the edge lightsaber is maxed out, it is most likely most early antagonists won't be as strong. Thus it's more likely you will take a couple hits.

Generally sounds like either leap or pack will work. Also remember that the tarrian is 3D so you can get the high ground.

Use a Bola.

Ensnare 3, can't use Maneuvers until they free themselves which burns an Action. It's a Range Light weapon, roll a Triumph and it's super Ensnare, Formidable Athletics to free themselves and it's the only Action they can take along with not being able to use Maneuvers.

Use a Bola.

If you're hell-bent on staying away from the NPC while he's equally focused on closing with you then you should not make manoeuvres to increase/decrease the distance. Just go straight to the chase rules and resolve the distance issue with competitive Athletics checks between rounds.

Force leap is the answer to your problem.

Now there are also The Ring Seeds which give you a third free maneuver.

Bind would allow you to prevent them from moving at all.

Grapple in the Warden tree you can spend a maneuver and your target has to spend 2 maneuvers to move 1 range band.

Over Balance lets you stagger opponents that miss you if they have a despair or 3 threat.

No Escape lets you remove free maneuvers on fear or coercion checks.

Navigator also gives preemptive avoidance.

Cortosis Weave for your armor would negate the lightsaber damage.

Or you could umm do what I did use a slug thrower loaded with Cortosis slugs and just short the **** thing out.

The Charmer Tree has Don't Shoot.

There are a number of choices, firstly the opponent has to be rival or a nemesis to do this as minions would have to downgrade their actions a rival takes strain directly on their wounds. So its not very effective for then to self damage themselves every round , because they will just drop that much faster.

Now for that pesky nemesis. Warleader gets a nice talent w here terrain doesnt slow them down. It does however slow most of their opponents, so spend advantage or destiny points to drop that terrain into the narrative.

Edit in fact warleader has a talent that allows you to do this without a dp.

I find that most who avoid engagement aren't ready for the responsibility.

Also, don't forget 2 threats on an enemy's skill check lets you take a free maneuver out of turn. So if you bump up your defense, or otherwise can make your enemies accrue threats, you can slip away even while they're hitting you (or, hopefully, TRYING to hit you)

Let's also not forget Knockdown...

Let's also not forget Knockdown...

And if you have Special Modifications, there's the possibility of making a custom blaster with Knockdown and/or Ensnare to help keep people away.

Also, don't forget 2 threats on an enemy's skill check lets you take a free maneuver out of turn. So if you bump up your defense, or otherwise can make your enemies accrue threats, you can slip away even while they're hitting you (or, hopefully, TRYING to hit you)

Bear in mind that RAW GMs choose how to spend threat not the players, so this one is not a given that that paricular player benefits from it , although I cant imagine many narrativs where some else would, but I could imagine an NPC getting threat on the roll, and another PC nearby being allowed to move closer and not the target of the attack.

Also, don't forget 2 threats on an enemy's skill check lets you take a free maneuver out of turn. So if you bump up your defense, or otherwise can make your enemies accrue threats, you can slip away even while they're hitting you (or, hopefully, TRYING to hit you)

Bear in mind that RAW GMs choose how to spend threat not the players, so this one is not a given that that paricular player benefits from it , although I cant imagine many narrativs where some else would, but I could imagine an NPC getting threat on the roll, and another PC nearby being allowed to move closer and not the target of the attack.

I think NPC checks can be the exception, at GM discretion of course. Otherwise you're are correct.

Edit: remove combat to include all

Grapple only causes the NPC to have to take 2 maneuvers to leave engaged with you, so it's not good for the OP. However, if they have a Warden or Soresu Defender that isn't them in the party...

Grapple works just fine in combination with Force Leap.

You leap away two range bands and your opponent can only move 1 which means you can perpetually keep them in short range.

So, what it sounds like you want to do is called "kiting". Kiting is a well know type of design-pitfall/exploit in videogaming, and it's for the most part, equally well known in tt-game systems.

If you want melee characters/NPCs to be viable in your game, you cannot allow for kiting to happen regularly or for any prolonged basis. Ranged characters already have the advantage of, well, range. So you can't design your game so they cannot be caught. That's broken. FFG provides plenty of ways to foil your grand scheme of building a kiting PC.

So, even if you found a way to reliably kite, all you're doing is going to create an arms race that you - as the player - cannot "win". The GM will just have to throw a foil for you into any battle that matters (which are presumably the same ones where you most wish you could kite).

Instead of trying to find a broken exploit in the system, why don't you just divert some of your focus on range to actually dealing with 'sabers, or other melee, on its terms? Doesn't have to be a 'saber, there's Cortosis and what not. But what's the point of trying to break the game?

For a completely different perspective try having a discussion with your GM, then trust them. If the only thing they ever do is chase you across the battlefield then they are not telling a very good story... and where are your fellow PC's? This is the kind of thing that you should leave as an opening to be used in the Narrative occasionally, but not always.

Next is the Destiny Point. these are your friend:

"I flip a Destiny Point, there is a blast door in this corridor, and the close button is right next to me"

"I flip a DP, there is an open turbo lift just up ahead, i jump in and mash the door closed button, anywhere is better than here."

"I flip a DP, there is a valve on the wall next to me, when i open it a rush of liquid nitrogen pours down from the roof, through a grate in the floor, blocking my enemies pursuit"

"I flip a DP, there is a control panel to retract the bridge i just crossed... try jumping that punk, pew pew baby"

"I flip a DP, as i run past that pile of barrels i knock them, sending them careening into my pursuer"

they let you change the scene, so change it in your favour.

Grapple works just fine in combination with Force Leap.

You leap away two range bands and your opponent can only move 1 which means you can perpetually keep them in short range.

The text for Grapple is "Until the beginning of the character's next turn, enemies must spend two maneuvers instead of one maneuver to move from engaged range to sort range of him." So, no, it doesn't work with Force Leap. If very specifically only works if you're still engaged, and it only makes it harder for people to move away... as should be abundantly clear from the title of the talent, "Grapple." You're grabbing them. You may be thinking of No Escape, which triggers off Coercion advantage (and plays very well, then, with Scathing Tirade) to remove an opponent's free maneuver.

So, what it sounds like you want to do is called "kiting". Kiting is a well know type of design-pitfall/exploit in videogaming, and it's for the most part, equally well known in tt-game systems.

If you want melee characters/NPCs to be viable in your game, you cannot allow for kiting to happen regularly or for any prolonged basis. Ranged characters already have the advantage of, well, range. So you can't design your game so they cannot be caught. That's broken. FFG provides plenty of ways to foil your grand scheme of building a kiting PC.

So, even if you found a way to reliably kite, all you're doing is going to create an arms race that you - as the player - cannot "win". The GM will just have to throw a foil for you into any battle that matters (which are presumably the same ones where you most wish you could kite).

Instead of trying to find a broken exploit in the system, why don't you just divert some of your focus on range to actually dealing with 'sabers, or other melee, on its terms? Doesn't have to be a 'saber, there's Cortosis and what not. But what's the point of trying to break the game?

To a point, I agree. Kitting isn't a thing we want in this game. If just kiting is what you're after, why not pick up Armorer to become more survivable? If you're being harassed by the GM or your other players aren't protecting you, try what Richard suggests and talk to someone.

Of course, there is something to be said of short term strategies to buy yourself space for a little bit. That isn't kiting, in the sense that you aren't consistently staying a step ahead of your enemy but affording yourself a bit of time. Force Leap is a good way to do this; they can get to you, but might have to burn resources (strain) to do it. No Escape and Scathing Tirade can buy you a turn (and cause strain damage) so that you can put more distance between you later or your allies can finish the opponent off. Flipping DPs is always a great option. Bind is a good temporary choice, as is finding a weapon with Knowdown (or Concussive, Disorient, or Snare). Those all keep you safer. Buy a sidearm with Defensive and draw it instead of your second pistol. Take the Melee Defense (or whatever it's called) maneuver, so simply step back, blast, and prepare for the enemy's charge.

Thanks for all the replies!

I know what kiting is, and I can totally see where you might think that that's what I wanted. However, I don't want to break the game and have no intention of trying to become invulnerable to attacks or even all melee attacks; not to mention that in Star Wars, kiting doesn't work real well cuz of environment & abstraction of movement. In fact the last game, I was taken down twice and crit 4 times, by blaster fire and then by the Move power, and both were A-OK with me. There's nothing wrong in my mind with being damaged and even taken down--it's just that lightsabers with their Breach 1, and having any way to even *temporarily* avoid melee, are something I want to be able to do.

I'll talk to the DM if it becomes a real issue, too--in fact the bit about 2 threat meaning a free maneuver might well be the solution, if he chooses to use that for me.

I'd love something that worked like Parry but didn't require a lightsaber or melee weapon.

I never really considered the difficult terrain + careful planning thing. A Force opponent without Force leap (or a talent that removes difficult terrain) will have serious problems keeping up; that works wonderfully.

Thanks again, love to hear more ideas!

Things like Cortosis Weave and (probably cooler, for me) the Verpine Shatter Pistol (with its Knockdown quality) are all future megagoals, cuz they're hellaciously expensive. Bolas don't fit the two-pistol style.

I couldn't find a one-handed Ranged (Light) pistol-type weapon that had the Defensive quality, or Concussive, Disorient or Snare. The only exception I've seen is the Multi-Goo Gun in Special Modifications, which doesn't really make sense for my character. Does anyone know of one (maybe in Savage Spirits?), or something similar?

What are "The Ring Seeds"?

Isn't there a Net Pistol somewhere? I may be imagining things.

The other way for you to deal with this on a more character specific basis is to move into the Pathfinder Specialisation. Quick Movement is an amazing ability. Animal Empathy is great if you ever find the need to ride some beasts (every good SW adventure should have beasts) and you can embrace your inner pirate to get a Parrot on your shoulder.

But as others have said Preemptive Avoidance is the true talent to achieve what you're after.

Oh, sorry, I was suggestion you keep a sword cane or something to brandish if you see a lightsaber person running at you, though it totally breaks the two pistol vibe.

The only thing I spotted that stands out: do all your group's encounters start at short range? In which case the GM may want to shake things up a bit and start them at medium or long range. That might alleviate some of the scramble for safety.