So, everyone plays mirror matches until they're the last man with a given list standing. Sounds to me like it would be boring as hell.

I think that's the point. If you don't want "boring as hell" then think up your own dern squad. (hypothetical "you", not "you" you.)

So, everyone plays mirror matches until they're the last man with a given list standing. Sounds to me like it would be boring as hell.

I think that's the point. If you don't want "boring as hell" then think up your own dern squad. (hypothetical "you", not "you" you.)

And only the best of the best palp list and scout list make it to the top, instead of flooding out everything else. If you think you're the best with palp aces, you suddenly get to prove it rather than preying on lists you counter for easy wins.

So, everyone plays mirror matches until they're the last man with a given list standing. Sounds to me like it would be boring as hell.

But facing u boats four times in a row isn't?

If you lose to trip toilet seats you might not face them that many times. If you beat the first one you might have found an auto win squad or tactic. Sit back and bask in the glory of being known as The Bowl Blaster.

The tournament scene is (right now) driven by the prizes,

What are the prizes? (Never been to tourney.) Seems to me an alt-art card isn't much incentive to get all worked up about.

Check out the bay of e and get back to us. The secondary market for the prizes is a tad insane. Make sure you look at the official stuff, not some knock off. FFGOP makes alternate dice, acrylic tokens and templates (and a card now) as well as AA pilot, crew and upgrade cards. The crazy bad sport tales you hear are over these prizes.

OK, it's alt-art and acrylic tokens that can also be had on the open market. Nothing that is not already in existence for the game or can't be bought for a pittance. I guess I could understand if they were new "if you win them then only you can fly them" pilots, but otherwise you're just a bad sport for not-so-special bling.

Unless the point is to win them so you can dump them on e-bay for 10 or 20 bucks.

Look at AA vader movie stills. Look at alt dice. Look at crit tokens, 6-10 TL's, movement templates (real FFG stuff)...hardly 10 or 20 bucks. I get from your posts that you're not into it, that's fine. But your argument doesn't hold water. If what you said was close to true, would there be this booming competitive scene? (Hint: the answer is no) Just because you don't think it's valuable doesn't mean that the vast majority of tourney players aren't there for just that, or that the players don't think the swag is worth it. And certainly the folks that would pay $900 for templates or $200 for dice or a card would disagree with you.

Now, I agree that it isn't worth what the secondary market gets. These prizes are literally pennies to make (I'd wager 10 acrylic tokens cost no more than a nickel for them to make) and the cardboard ones definitely work. But, I don't set the market, the buyers do. That, unfortunately fuels the scene more than any "prestige" you'd get from having them. Also, some folks just like to have extra special goodies. Nobody is wrong here. But the swag is what fuels the tourneys and the tourneys fuel the game. Unfortunately in today's game market no ongoing OP support = a dead game.

Unfortunately in today's game market no ongoing OP support = a dead game.

Fair enough. But for $900 I'd buy 4 Raiders and 4 Corvettes and have a kickass Epic game.

Interesting idea. How do you pair people with "random" squads?

Is it ship-based or... ? Inq/Vader/Fel is same as Fel/Inq/Lambda? What about swarms?

What happends, if there are 3 torpedo boat lists: two get paired and third one gets a bye or he gets a random opponent?

ParaGoomba Slayer, I am new to the forums, but I really don't understand which list you prefer to play yourself

PGS loves Palp Aces and Primary weapon turrets, they are his favourite.

You need to take what PGS says with a pinch of salt sometimes.

So, everyone plays mirror matches until they're the last man with a given list standing. Sounds to me like it would be boring as hell.

I think that's the point. If you don't want "boring as hell" then think up your own dern squad. (hypothetical "you", not "you" you.)

And only the best of the best palp list and scout list make it to the top, instead of flooding out everything else. If you think you're the best with palp aces, you suddenly get to prove it rather than preying on lists you counter for easy wins.

Every once in a a while Paragoomba Slayer has a valid point. The cut could still be full of Palp Aces if OP's suggestion were implemented. There's enough variation with the ships there that they probably wouldn't end up culling themselves from the cut.

So, everyone plays mirror matches until they're the last man with a given list standing. Sounds to me like it would be boring as hell.

I think that's the point. If you don't want "boring as hell" then think up your own dern squad. (hypothetical "you", not "you" you.)

And only the best of the best palp list and scout list make it to the top, instead of flooding out everything else. If you think you're the best with palp aces, you suddenly get to prove it rather than preying on lists you counter for easy wins.

Every once in a a while Paragoomba Slayer has a valid point. The cut could still be full of Palp Aces if OP's suggestion were implemented. There's enough variation with the ships there that they probably wouldn't end up culling themselves from the cut.

Yeah until they all chump each other down with simultaneous death draws, heh.

(jk)

edit: heh. Double Soontircide.

Having a scoring sheet for the opponents to fill out on each other,they each fill in 2 additional spots- where they judge their opponents Sportsmanship, and Squadron Build.

Both would be mostly subjective, but it might encourage people to play exceptionally nice (not a major issue always- but sometimes you have people that can be complete pricks to play against), and also if they built a balanced non-cray broken list, then theyd get more points for that too.

So, everyone plays mirror matches until they're the last man with a given list standing. Sounds to me like it would be boring as hell.

I think that's the point. If you don't want "boring as hell" then think up your own dern squad. (hypothetical "you", not "you" you.)

And only the best of the best palp list and scout list make it to the top, instead of flooding out everything else. If you think you're the best with palp aces, you suddenly get to prove it rather than preying on lists you counter for easy wins.

Every once in a a while Paragoomba Slayer has a valid point. The cut could still be full of Palp Aces if OP's suggestion were implemented. There's enough variation with the ships there that they probably wouldn't end up culling themselves from the cut.

So categories will matter. If you have a fat Dash in your list, you'll play other fat Dashes. If you have a Palp Shuttle, you'll play other Palp shuttles. 2 brobots would not automatically face brobot+firespray but would a second 2 brobot list.

The theory is sound and just needs fine tuning on what counts as qualifying into each category.

Or we could not?

So, everyone plays mirror matches until they're the last man with a given list standing. Sounds to me like it would be boring as hell.

I think that's the point. If you don't want "boring as hell" then think up your own dern squad. (hypothetical "you", not "you" you.)

And only the best of the best palp list and scout list make it to the top, instead of flooding out everything else. If you think you're the best with palp aces, you suddenly get to prove it rather than preying on lists you counter for easy wins.

Every once in a a while Paragoomba Slayer has a valid point. The cut could still be full of Palp Aces if OP's suggestion were implemented. There's enough variation with the ships there that they probably wouldn't end up culling themselves from the cut.

But they would all be PALP Aces. Got Palp and Starfighters? You play vs. Palp and Starfighters, regardless of the individual aces.

Nope. I actively try to avoid mirror matches when I play casually so the idea of going to a paid event and having to pull three mirror matches right off the draw would be a real downer.

How about instead of trying to hammer the competitive format into something it's not, why not change our attitudes?

Someone posited the other day that competitive and casual players should not be paired up in a match and that's just silly. How do you score a pick up match then? Lol. No, variety in the tourney scene depends on the attitudes of the players. Sure U-Boats is a strong list, but lots' of people will avoid it because it is popular and already has a lot of negative attention. Some will fly it simply because that's what they have chosen to do, regardless of external influences.

Now, really the only way to influence what is being taken to tournaments is to... take different things to your next tourney! Now... I am the worst conveyor for this message since I myself have no idea what to fly in this months Regional! And truth be told, I am looking at bringing some meta heavy lists too, but this isn't because I'm a meta-chaser. Dengar has always been my favourite bounty hunter, TIE swarms make me think of high speed 80s metal from Japan, and TIE Bombers... well I used to have a micromachines Bomber when I was a kid and that's the first expac I bought when I got into X-Wing. I also won a TAP at a local event and fell in love with that zippy Inquisitor build. So you see, while my lists may look meta, they really aren't built around that philosophy.

I mean, I could just copy and paste the winning list from Yavin and that would suit me just fine. But I'd rather sit down and try to make something competitive that makes sense for me and suits my playstyle.

Having a scoring sheet for the opponents to fill out on each other,they each fill in 2 additional spots- where they judge their opponents Sportsmanship, and Squadron Build.

Both would be mostly subjective, but it might encourage people to play exceptionally nice (not a major issue always- but sometimes you have people that can be complete pricks to play against), and also if they built a balanced non-cray broken list, then theyd get more points for that too.

No. Just, no. If they have any impact on the tournament outcome, then you're encouraging collaboration. You're also making the game rely on your opponent's goodwill instead of on player skill. If it doesn't have an impact, you're just generating ill will between players.

There's a very strange assumption built into your post; that competitive events shouldn't be played competitively.

So, everyone plays mirror matches until they're the last man with a given list standing. Sounds to me like it would be boring as hell.

Not if you brought a unique list

Why don't we realize that tournaments are about competition and let's get some realistic expectations?

Adding sportsmanship and comp scores are a really bad idea and just create drama.

I think that breaking the long period of Tier 1 list dominance is the most important thing that could occur to make to the game more dynamic and avoid NPE.

While I do agree that Aces are a dominate force in the game I really believe TLT and contracted scout have been the most destructive force on the game forcing so many other creative lists out of the meta. Point handicapping is the answer. Waiting months for a balance is too long.

Tier 1 lists are Tier 1 for a reason. If you make changes, all it will achieve is a shift in tier 1, pushing some lists out of it and putting others in their place.

That's just the nature of competitive play - people bring a list that gives them the most chances of winning within the current ruleset. Alter the ruleset and the lists change, but there will always be tier 1, 2 and so on. There is nothing that can be done about this.

I've seen the meta coalesce around certain builds quite a few times in X-Wing's history and whenever it happens - from Fat Han or Whisper + Chiraneau through Brobots and 4 TLT Ys up to the current U-Boats and Pal Aces - it leaves some people feeling frustrated. And I can understand the sentiment. It can be disappointing to set aside time to go to a tournament only to play the same list over and over again. Then to watch the cut get filled with virtually-identical lists.

So, how about this for a simple idea for maintaining variety: In tournaments, squadrons with the same ship make-up are paired against each other in the first round and whenever the players have the same tournament points.

All the 3 JumpMaster lists would play against each other in the first round, then the winners would play each other, immediately ruling 3/4 of them out of the cut for most tournaments. In consequence, only the best 3 JumpMaster player (or whatever meta list is currently being spammed) would bubble up to the top table.

It has these advantages:

• Keeps the tournament scoring unchanged.
• Continues to keep working as the meta shifts.
• Gives everyone free choice over what to bring. Nothing gets banned or nerfed.
• Can easily be handled in the tournament software.

The best players would still reach the cut, but following the meta too closely would make the journey harder, while innovation and creativity in squad building would be rewarded.

What do you think?

Without a random selection in the beginning, you are biasing the tournament. You really need to be fair in a tournament setting to all.

Adding sportsmanship and comp scores are a really bad idea and just create drama.

Look at aos the competitions Arnt won through playing the game but by the nicest guy, it's a joke.

Tier 1 lists are Tier 1 for a reason. If you make changes, all it will achieve is a shift in tier 1, pushing some lists out of it and putting others in their place.

That's just the nature of competitive play - people bring a list that gives them the most chances of winning within the current ruleset. Alter the ruleset and the lists change, but there will always be tier 1, 2 and so on. There is nothing that can be done about this.

Umm. The whole point of this thread is that something COULD be done about this. If all the Tier 1 lists play each other in the beginning, then there will be less Tier 1 lists as the tourney continues, increasing variety as the tourney continues. And moreover, the hope would be that there is more variety at the get-go, since mega-meta-maniacs might rethink their lists to avoid mirror match elimination.

I think the best alternative is a tier 2 tournament scene. You can keep the current format because it works. As others have said, the purpose is to be the best and that means taking your best list, even if it's a common, powerful list.

What do I mean by tier 2? Have a second tournament scene that focuses more on variety. Each season can have various rules so that it's never the same thing twice. You could cycle through missions. You could enforce a unique rule where players cannot have the same unique pilot on the table at a time. You could have a team season. You could play at different point limits. You could enforce limited amounts of each faction per tournament (and perhaps total points for each faction so that all players of the winning faction get prizes.

My point is that we need another source of games that can cater to those who hate seeing the same list, but I don't think we should necessarily try to force diversity into the current format. I think it's good that people can take whatever squad they think can beat the competition. The proposed idea doesn't actually make the lists more diverse; it just pushes the mirrors to the front of the tournament instead of the end and I feel that it messes too much with players' freedom to choose lists. I think it would be an interesting rule for a tier 2 format.

Having a scoring sheet for the opponents to fill out on each other,they each fill in 2 additional spots- where they judge their opponents Sportsmanship, and Squadron Build.

Both would be mostly subjective, but it might encourage people to play exceptionally nice (not a major issue always- but sometimes you have people that can be complete pricks to play against), and also if they built a balanced non-cray broken list, then theyd get more points for that too.

HELL. NO. Sportsmanship scores aregreat in theory, but you have nothing to stop people from min scoring people they lose to.

And comp scores are a bad idea. That's how you get the guy bringing 3 land raiders docked points because ZOMG SO CHEESY and the guy who brought 4 monoliths gets extra points because IZ CUTE AND FLUFFY.

Subjective tournament grades are not a good idea. Ever.

...

I think if I were a game store owner I would probably do something like... oh I dunno, an X-Wing fun tournament, or a casual mini-league. Well, actually... I'm not a store owner and I did do those things. Mind you it was just the "standard format" but I did go out of my way to organize casual events. It wasn't that hard really. I also had awesome store owners backing me up too though! But really, all I did was say hey, can we have an event in your store, and bam. It happened. Sure there was stuff involved. But those are details man! You figure those out.

Maaybe, just maybe (I'm drunk, haha) this increased demand for casual event formats could be met by... you?

Also, you can prevent forest fires.